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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
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2004-08-22, 12:29 | Link #221 | ||||
Cool as a Cucumber
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
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2004-08-22, 12:32 | Link #222 | ||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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That's not a circular logic, you just didn't understand the point. They were the strongest, so much that they remains the strongest even when they're old. And not : oh I'm old! Now I'm strong! Your point is to say that the oldest are the strongest, heck you take as example the strongest ninjas ever to begin with. There are no other old ninja? Wonder why. Because they're dead or in retirement. Yeah Sarutobi was stronger when he was younger, Oro remains young precisely not to become weaker and finally die because of oldness, Tsunade uses Ninjutsu to change her body. Only Jiraiya has the body of his age and guess what? Yeah he was probably stronger when he was in his prime. Quote:
And yeah there isn't only physical condition, neither for athletes. Raikage you talk about martial artists, martial artists are athlete. That's not because it's the JO that athlete only means doped guys running like hell. Sharper intellect with age? Since when? And once again you can only take the example of the strongest ninja ever in their old against young but far weaker Ninjas to begin with. lol Jacky Chan can probably beat the hell out of you even if he's over his 50, it's not because he's old because he was even better when he was young. It's just that he's far stronger than you are period. Quote:
Then I don't know how would be the body of Oro in his 50 so there is no point in that and finally, you take the example of a Ninjutsu freak. I will do the opposite : Gai will be better at 50 than at 25 when he will be weaker and slower? Quote:
Sarutobi could stand up against Oro 13~15 years old ago during their first confrontation. It appears that Sarutobi isn't the God of the Shinobi for nothing. Quote:
Kakashi is obviously known internationally as Copy Ninja Kakashi. The Sannin were legendary in their 20, Itachi became (in)famous at 13 when he whipped out his clan. It's also about this age that the 4th saved Konoha from the Kyubi. They become Ninja at 6~12 years old, their job is the deadliest. No 25 years isn't young. Especially for the 3rd and the Sannin who lived in a era of perpetual war. Quote:
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Yeah the 4th has enough time to built his legend, and he became the greatest hero of Konoha by saving all the village from the Kyubi. Still he's known as the strongest one. |
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2004-08-22, 13:04 | Link #223 | |||||||
The mac
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Let's say a shinobi john learns Katon super fireball at 25, then learns Katon grand fireball at 35, then learns Katon ultimate fireball at 45. John is strongest at 45, why? Because he has learned better and more capable jutsu, regardless of his waning physical strength and speed. His chakra is remaining reasonably constant because the increase in his traning and experience are balancing out the decrease his physical energy. That seems to me a reasonable explanation as to why sannin retain their enormous chakras even at 50. Yes, this example is contrived but the point remains, time allows for learning and creation of better jutsu which can make a better shinobi, period. Quote:
Don't try to evade the question either, it's painfully obvious the Orochimaru of now would lay waste to the Orochimaru of 25, his shit would no doubt be in ruins, he no doubt has a much more vast arsenal of ninjutsu than he did at 25. As for Gai, that's a good question. Maybe, maybe not. That depends on what taijutsu techniques he could've picked up in those 25 years. Taijutsu is the arena most dependent on physical strength and speed so he may or may not be able to defeat a younger Gai, again, depending on what if any new taijutsu abilities he learned. Quote:
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2004-08-22, 14:37 | Link #224 | |
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I voted 3rd Hokage in prime as the greatest shinobi. One great example of his power is his final fight with Orochimaru. Even at his age, he was able to hold off not only Oro, but the 1st and 2nd as well. That is insane for an old guy in his 70s or so. If he was in his prime like 30-40, he could have easily beaten them. Orochimaru even said that if Sarutobi was just a few years younger, Orochimaru would not be able to beat him. |
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2004-08-22, 16:25 | Link #225 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 42
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2004-08-22, 17:04 | Link #227 | ||||||
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1. Orochimaru is a jutsu whore, he says it countless times he compares strength based on Jutsu and nothing more. The more you have the stronger you are. He's said that to Sarutobi, and Jiraiya. He has no way other than expirementation to gain new jutsu. I'm sure he has a nice collection, but do you honestly think he has more than Itachi who was in the same organization...............you know the one that collects extremely powerful and rare jutsu + he has Sharingan. Since Itachi most likely has more, I can easily say Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru not because he just is. But because he has alot more jutsu............Wait......that's how Orochimaru thinks. Now if Itachi says in the best outcome of a Itachi/Kisame/Jiraiya fight that they will beat Jiraiya, but will die themselves, And Orochimaru says the strength between him and Jiraiya still has a big gap with Orochimaru being stronger...........How exactly is Itachi above the Sannin? 2. Orochimaru knows Sarutobi, and his fighting style, he knows what Sarutobi is capable of. Add in he's an old geezer now, he can't perform alot of his jutsu with ease (Notice he did not do bushin after one of his jutsu.........because he was too old, and Orochimaru comments on this, and even says that he's too old.) As Hunter has stated, Sarutobi was probably alot stronger in his prime, and would probably put Orochimaru in his place. Then we have Sarutobi who he himself says that no one can stop Orochimaru now. (Obviously he's including himself) So even Sarutobi knows that Orochimaru would most likely beat him in a fight, (Which happens) I'm sure Orochimaru knows all of this too, so I'm not suprised he wasn't scared of Sarutobi. Itachi was playing with Three Jounnins, read my post in the begining Any Jounnincan kicked Sasuke ass, as any Jounnin can kick Naruto's ass. Quote:
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Does that mean he is better than me because I said so? Or is it just me putting myself down, because of my beliefs of what makes a great artist? Quote:
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2004-08-22, 17:26 | Link #228 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Last of the Uchiha, Oro isn't the strongest sannins as you mentioned quite a bit. And also they fight differently, Oro would lose to Itachi and Itachi would lose to Jiraiya, but if Jiraya were to face Oro, I might call it a tie, or maybe Jiraiya based on that comment about having the will to fight. He would just keep going like Naurto.
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2004-08-22, 18:04 | Link #229 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 42
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Actually, i'm not wrong. Sarutobi the greatest Hokage of all time said that Orochimaru was a shinobi that came once in a decade and wanted him to be his successor, before the Fourth took the mantle. He wanted Orochimaru to be Hokage so bad that that he let him free after all the killing he made. I wasn't questioning that the Third was the strongest in his prime but still was considered the strongets of the five Hokages and the facts that Orochimaru killed the Hokage and the Kazekage. Orochimaru do measure strength by how many jutsus you know, but also by overall strength. Kakashi rival the Third on jutsus and Kakashi is a bug in front of Orochimaru. Orochimaru is the strongest od the Sannin, and he said that Itachi was stronger than him. If Orochimaru is a shinobi that comes once in a decade, Itachi is a shinobi who come once in a century. They are both geniuses but its clear who is the most genius. Quote:
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Then, you clearly haven't read anything that has been said about the Uchihas and Sasuke. Read the whole series again(especially the all Uchihas parts, as many Naruto's fans don't read them at all. I'm not saying that you are one) and then tell me that. |
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2004-08-22, 18:33 | Link #231 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 42
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2004-08-22, 20:12 | Link #234 | ||||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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The were strong and there are still strong, you call that a load of crap? I still wait for an other argument than they're strong because they're old which I wouldn't even call a load of crap because it would be an understatement. By definition being in your prime means the best physical and mental state, the ideal peak of your condition. And neither the strength nor the capacity to learn is a continual process. You say that chakra remains constant with age? It's proved wrong by the state of Sarutobi. The Sannin aren't in this state yet because there 18 years younger than him. What do you think? That oldness suddenly appears out of no-where? That at 55 years you haven't lose a little bit of stamina/chakra then suddenly at 56 oh no! I'm old. Try to think, aging is a slow process taking... Years. Incredible isn't it? Quote:
And for the 3rd time, intellect doesn't increase with age. When the spell you cast are alimented by your stamina, you better should have a good physical condition, and if you sit back on your ass during a fight you're pretty much dead. Oh yeah and about moving your hands, ever heard of arthritis? Quote:
I can say that John was stronger at 25 because with his better speed and stamina he can use properly his jutsu and avoid the bigger jutsu of his older self. I can say anything actually because there is nothing about 'John'. Amount of jutsu is important because it allows to react to any kind of situation and any kind of Ninja, that's one of the advantage of the Sharingan btw. But it's not enough alone to make strength or the Uchiha would have been the absolute rulers of the world. Quote:
There aren't children who haves basically nothing to do but training with an adult to teach and train them anymore. If they want a new jutsu they're most likely to create them, Rasengan = 3 years for a genius like the 4th. And yeah right, if Gai learns a better kick by killing the Boss of the dungeon, it will be better even with less strength and speed Quote:
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He's not even in his current body. Quote:
So he was even more the year before, and the year before, and the year before, and... The only point remaining is that the God of the Shinobi is strong, what a discovery really. Quote:
And no I certainely don't agree because it's utterly stupid, there are no 'step' such as legendary then best of all time then living god then congrat you finished the game at 100% There is not a time comparison between legendary and strongest ever. At the moment you showed a level of strength that nobody ever had before then you're the strongest ever and you will remain the strongest ever until someone shows an even greater strength, whatever your age. Quote:
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Not more than an other legendary guy who created a jutsu to live forever for example. |
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2004-08-22, 21:01 | Link #235 | |||||||||||
The mac
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2004-08-22, 22:53 | Link #236 | ||||||||
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Where does it say Itachi is a genius that comes once a century? For a 22 year old, your logic isn't past the 9 year old level. They were statements to put emphasize on how much more amazing they are than normal Ninja. Don't use them as an actual comparison. Quote:
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While it's possible they did fight, the fact is............we don't know Quote:
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I mean using that logic, I guess Neji will become the greatest ninja before Sasuke will because he's more of a genius than Sasuke, and is stronger. |
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2004-08-22, 23:42 | Link #237 | |||||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 42
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-That Itachi's sharingan evolved. - The scroll of the uchiha cointained the secret of the mangekyou sharinagn. - I don't remember the other one, there were three for sure. I'm going to save this post, so when they do show us the fight between those two, i will give you a reminder. Quote:
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2004-08-23, 01:14 | Link #238 | ||||||||||||
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No it is not shown that Itachi is the strongest one. It's show he was a threat to Orochimaru. Orochimaru isn't the kind of person who would join a organization full of people weaker than him, and he was most likely in it before Itachi. So I'm guessing that there are some very strong people in the Organization, nowhere does it even remotely hint that Itachi is the strongest memeber, that's something you assumed and labeled as fact. Quote:
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2004-08-23, 02:17 | Link #239 |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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This thread hurts my head.
(Hey, that rhymed!) So, there's two discussions going on right now, I think...? One about how a ninja's age corresponds to power level relative to the ninja's own lifetime. Another about the validity of various translations. At least this one seems to focus a bit more on Orochimaru vs Itachi - as though these two are the only ones in the running for 'best ninja ever'. Well, let me add my two cents in one at a time. Age: Every single person hits a physical peak in life. This physical peak is almost always before the age of 30. This is (I think) generally true in real life, and there is absolutely no reason why we can't say the same thing about these people in the Naruto universe. So, as far as taijutsu specialists like Gai and Neji go, we can safely say that a 60-year old Gai will not be as physically able as a 25-year old Gai. Older Gai will not be as muscular, would probably also be slower. If we assume that both Gai's in question are of the same skill level (that is, older Gai has no more experience/training than younger Gai) then all else being equal young Gai has a greater chance to win. But experience and training do play a role. A huge role that we would be foolish to ignore. When these factors are considered, then the outcome is not so clear. Hell, I'm not going to hazard a guess at who wins. Can a thirty-year old kung fu master beat a sixty-year old master? Who knows? Certainly not me. With this in mind, we move to ninjutsu/genjutsu users. Like Macbrother said, in this aspect ninjutsu is more like magic. The practionicers of these jutsus are more along the lines of sorcerers than track runners. In fiction (since there are, to my knowledge, no established and credible decent amount of spellcasters in the real world) the best magicians are the older, wiser ones. The ones with more experience and training. So, in this form, physical prowess plays almost no role in the effectiveness of the person. How are these magicians different from the shinobi in Naruto? Probably the difference most relevant here is that all power must be generated from within the user, rather than pulled from an external source. Your effectiveness as a ninja in all aspects (nin, tai, gen) are directly correlated with your physical ability. Yes, as you age your pure physical ability/potential will generally decrease. Hopefully we can at least agree on this. The question here, to me, seems to be 'can the loss in strength be offset by experience and training' which, of course, will vary from person to person. Personally I believe that the Sannin are not as strong as they were in their late 30's (due to their aging AND somewhat neglected skills in Tsunade and Jiraiya), but I can easily see why someone might claim that they are just as dangerous now as they ever were. Oro is probably as dangerous now as he ever was. As a ninjutsu specialist, his abilities diminish far less with age. He can compensate for the loss in physical strength with new techniques, experience, and possibly being able to mold/utilize his remaining chakra more efficently - much like Naruto is learning to do. And, of course, he has recently gotten rid of that nasty 'aging' problem. Itachi vs Orochimaru: I see Itachi as the sprinter, and Oro as more of a long-distance runner. Itachi has only one or two jutsus that Oro cannot handle, but these jutsus (and most jutsus we've seen him use so far) leave him winded/take a large percentage of his power. If Oro can get through these one or two jutsus, then he's in a much better position to beat a now-tired Itachi. The longer the fight goes, the better Oro's chances are. Itachi vs Oro vs Jiraiya: Rock-Paper-Scissors. Simple as that. Itachi is the WORST possible match for Orochimaru, since all Oro has are jutsus. No real hand-to-hand combat to brag about. Jiraiya is pushed as having an almost-unbreakable spirit like Naruto, which might leave him in better shape after a trip through the Mangekyou if he gets trapped. Jiraiya thinks on his feet, compensating for the situation, which may just make the difference if he, like I said about Oro, can avoid the big-gun attacks Itachi uses. |
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