AnimeSuki Forums

k//eternal · 2009-12-29, 01:33

Then it should have taken three wolves to take them down.

The problem with the statment is really that the wolves and sheep puzzle never had a provision for blinding either type of animal, so you can only take it so far.

TTR · 2009-12-29, 01:35

Actually you're completely right. I mean, maybe it isn't that big of a deal... IIRC The tips that are in the character bios have a narrator bias, so the narrator of these bios might be placing false leads.

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 01:45

A bit off topic, it seems that EP6 is out today. Has anyone already ordered it?

---------------------------------------------------------

One should solve EP5 basing on one's theory on EP1-4, otherwise, one is going to fall for the dirty trick set by Ryukishi07 in EP5 if one tries to solve EP1-4 using information from EP5.

The major purpose of EP5 is to state some of the Beatrice's motives (not for revenge, not for fun), the game is already solvable and introduce Batter the Infinite Magician. The information from EP5 was not necessary from the beginning, if one has already found the "Answer".

I have seen many people trying to solve EP5 like an episode from Question Arc, but not using their own theory from EP1-4 to solve EP5.

k//eternal · 2009-12-29, 01:58

I don't think that's entirely true. EP5 certainly brings new information to the table, and running away from it for fear of the "dirty trick"... well, Ryukishi is full of dirty tricks anyway, so it's not like people are just lapping everything up.

EP1-4 should be technically solvable, but that doesn't mean later EPs can't be helpful. And it's not like we have a concensus for the solution to EP1-4 after all this time, so expecting one is probably unreasonable at this point.

Li Jianliang · 2009-12-29, 02:17

Spoiler for Observations concerning murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in EP5:

1. Murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in the cousins' room of the guesthouse

The cousins were still alive and well at midnight (0AM). Rosa entered the guesthouse at 1AM and promptly went upstairs to sleep because of a cold. Strangely she is found murdered in the same room in the morning at 7AM.

Question: What was Rosa doing in the cousins' room?
Rosa may have been checking up on Maria and happened to walk in while the culprit was killing the other three people, and she got killed, too. Or she was told to go to the room at 1AM. Or she was disoriented and entered the wrong room?
Rosa asked Genji for cold medicine sometime between 11PM and 0AM, which Shannon and Kanon brought, if I remember correctly. It is possible that the culprit might have given or made the cold medicine something strong enough to make her too subdued or weakened to fight back. It would make sense to say the cousins might have gotten some similar treatment or were killed as they slept defenselessly.

Question: How did the culprit get into the cousins' room?
If Erika's watch over the lounge from 1AM to 3AM and eavesdropping on the cousins' room from 3AM to morning were flawless, then the murder must have occurred between 0AM and 1AM. However, during that time, most of the people were in the mansion in each other's presence, thereby giving them alibis, but they were not observed by Erika. Erika personally proved the alibis of Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Gohda. If no one snuck out from the dinner room meeting in the mansion, then Genji seems to be a possible candidate, getting to the guesthouse between leaving the dinner room and informing Natsuhi of the phone call.

Question: How did the culprit get out of the cousins' room?
The culprit could've entered and left the room very quickly, but Rosa went upstairs pretty much at 1AM, at which point Erika began her watch in the lounge, so the no one could've left the second floor without catching her eye by this point. Rosa couldn't have committed suicide, nor was she killed by a trap.

Question: Was Battler unknowingly in the same room as the culprit?
Working off the idea that the culprit didn't (couldn't) leave the room after Rosa entered at 1AM, it's possible that the culprit was still in there when Battler entered at 3AM, and just stayed silent for the entire night. However, that doesn't resolve the problem of getting out of the room. Since Erika didn't hear anything suspicious for the entire night until Battler screamed like a little girl at 7AM...it doesn't seem like Battler would overlook another person when he discovered the bodies in the morning.

Spoiler for Theory concerning murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in EP5:

The most plausible theory I have at the moment for the murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa is that the culprit entered the cousins' room between 0AM and 1AM. The culprit killed the three as they slept and also killed Rosa when she entered at 1AM.

Whether Rosa entered to check up on Maria or mistook the cousins' room for her own due to disorientation by 'cold medicine', it is not significant.

After 1AM, the culprit left the cousins' room and hid elsewhere on the second floor (perhaps in Rosa's room, since other people knew she'd be sleeping and not bother her), so Erika never sees anyone leaving the second floor from 1AM to 3AM. When Battler and Erika went into their rooms at 3AM, the culprit quietly sneaked out, since Erika was only focused on listening to sounds from Battler's (the cousins') room.

Following along the above theory, then culprit for the murder of the above four is likely to be Eva, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Kanon, or Shannon. Natsuhi is not the culprit. Krauss is not the culprit. Battler is not the culprit. Erika personally proved the alibis of Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo in the guesthouse. Erika is not the culprit. Genji was sealed into his room at 1AM, so chronologically it rules out his participation. Rudolf kept Battler from leaving the dining room at 1AM, so he couldn't have been in cousins' room, either. The deaths were of homicide, so that rules out the cousins and Rosa committing suicide. If Rosa killed the cousins, it would still leave the question 'How did who kill Rosa?'. Battler was also sleep-deprived in the dining room and simply noted that the family 'discussions' were still going on from 1AM to 3AM, so there is no reliable observation from him about who exactly was in the room with him. The last 'reliable', non-sleep-deprived Battler observation was at 0:04AM.

...I guess the who list is still five people strong, but at least it's whittled down from eighteen.

EDIT: Aw, shoot, I thought I was missing something...
At the moment of 24 o'clock, in the hallway of the second floor of the mansion were Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji. All of the rest of the people were in the dining room on the first floor.
Until 1 o'clock in the morning, not a single person out of all people in the dining room withdrew from the dining room...!
After Genji finished relaying the phone call, he immediately returned straight to the sleeping quarters.
Eva put a seal on Genji's sleeping quarters at 1 o'clock in the morning, and it was broken by Kanon and Kumasawa when they discovered his incident in the morning.
During the short break at 1 o'clock in the morning, the first to leave the dining room were Rosa and Eva. All of the humans in the dining room stayed there until Eva returned. Eva, after seeing Rosa off, went to the sleeping quarters and did the seal. Undoubtedly, she never went inside the room in that case.
With Erika's scientific investigations as the basis and further combined with the red truth, she declared that Genji did not leave the mansion after 24 o'clock...

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 02:18

Not that EP5 contains no new information, just that none of the information is really necessary, and many of them got to be misleading anyway...

The trick... in my opinion, is some of the normal scenes (devoid of fantasy element) were completely fake. For example, some scenes before Oct 4th 1986...

------------------

@Li Jianliang: If you trusted the narration that Rudolf kept Batter from leaving at 1am, then you must also trust that Shannon, Kanon, Eva, Kyrie and Hideyoshi were inside the parlor as well. The red texts said that 24時の時点で、屋敷の2階廊下には、夏妃と蔵臼、源次がいた。残りは全員、1階の食堂。食堂の全員は、午前1時まで、誰一人食堂を退出していない…！

So the five cannot get to guesthouse to murder the five during 00:00-1:00am as well

Marion · 2009-12-29, 02:35

Your biggest flaw with the 1st twilight is that it couldn't have happened at all during the night, because of the red text concerning the bodies. They weren't moved after they died, which means they had to be moved before they died. In short none of the victims could have been dead when discovered at 7am.

Sir Andy Richter · 2009-12-29, 03:00

Uhh, what do you guys think of the theory that

Spoiler for EP5:

Marion · 2009-12-29, 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Andy Richter

Uhh, what do you guys think of the theory that

Spoiler for EP5:

Spoiler for EP 5:

Joneleth · 2009-12-29, 03:53

Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joneleth

Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?

Her explanation was that because she knew that everywhere she went crimes must happen (usually homicide), as it was the case for any top detective. Because Battler just discovered the gold, she predicted him to be killed, so she set up the seals in advance.

Jan-Poo · 2009-12-29, 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijriims

I thought when I said the bell ring was faked by GM, it meant that the truthness of some of the scenes was compromised anyway.

And my game showed that Eva knocked Kinzo's study at 22:47, not 23:00. So they had about 33 minutes to do all the things. Where did you find that 23:00 thing?

Erika said it was around 23:00, Erika is the detective and can't fail on noticing such a detail.

Quote:

Natsuhi: "I, ...it was me. Last night, ......up until the time of the uproar from when Battler found the gold, I was in Father's study, giving the daily report."

Erika: ".........So around 23:00 last night."

Quote:

Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?

Yeah. That's one thing I always pointed out. Erika's explanation can't work in the real world. Such a thing as a murder always happening wherever a detective goes is only something that happens in novel. Plus, I've never read any serious novel where the detective plans in advance a strategy to find a culprit of a crime that hasn't even happened yet.

Joneleth · 2009-12-29, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijriims

Her explanation was that because she knew that everywhere she went crimes must happen (usually homicide), as it was the case for any top detective. Because Battler just discovered the gold, she predicted him to be killed, so she set up the seals in advance.

Well isn't that intuition?

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joneleth

Well isn't that intuition?

No. It was more from... experience.

------------------------

@Jan-Poo:

As you quoted, Erika said it happened "about" 23:00. I found 22:47 when I used the "magic leap". Was she ever present when Eva knocked on study's door? If she was so precise, she should state out the exact time as she was with the adults when she and Battler was waiting in the parlor for Natsuhi to come down.

They probably hastened to where the gold was stored. And has it been said where it does take to walk from mansion to where the gold was hidden, or to the chapel?

------------------------

Erika was a mockery for all those detectives from novels. A meddling from Bern and Lambda indeed.

Jan-Poo · 2009-12-29, 08:41

She didn't need to be present. She knew when the gold was found and she was with Battler when they returned to the Main house to announce it.

22:47 is what the clock says when Erika and Battler are in front of the gold.

If you are using the clock as an objective measure anyway then why don't you use it when the family returns to the Mansion after seeing the gold which is 23:49 ?

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 08:51

The only insight given by EP5, was on why Eva and Hideyoshi left the family meeting so early.

It was always suspicious considering that they continued the "discussion" overnight in EP3 and EP5, their early withdrawal from the discussion did not make much sense.

From EP5, we knew that there should be an acting performed the next morning, and then they could find an excuse to break into Kinzo's study.

So in EP1, Eva also planned for an acting, this time the fives were Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gohda and Shannon. But this was not a plan for them to be "killed" but just missing. Krauss went missing was surprising to them, actually. The next morning when Natsuhi said she was going to inform Kinzo, she slipped the receipt between the door and wanted to force Natsuhi to admit she was hiding Kinzo's death again.

The sixes' bodies were found inside the garden shed was out of her and Hideyoshi's plan.

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

She didn't need to be present. She knew when the gold was found and she was with Battler when they returned to the Main house to announce it.

22:47 is what the clock says when Erika and Battler are in front of the gold.

If you are using the clock as an objective measure anyway then why don't you use it when the family returns to the Mansion after seeing the gold which is 23:49 ?

Because at around 00:00 Shannon and Kanon remembered they came "barely an hour ago", so 23:49 does not make sense.

I found evidence to doubt that the time showing 23:49 was fake, but I don't find any clues for the time 22:47 to be fake. And because EP5 followed Knox rules (which was never stated in red though, IIRC), I need clues to support my theory.

Jan-Poo · 2009-12-29, 08:58

By which premise you trust something that was said in the game board more than the clock?

We have several cases when we are sure that something that is said by characters in the gameboard isn't reliable.

But do we have any case where we know the clock time is false?

Even in the case they are correct, it doesn't help your theory. You said that the knock on the door actually happened at 23:20, right? So if Kanon and Shannon arrived one hour before it should have happened at 22:20+. But that's simply impossible.

Rather wouldn't this point out that the clock is running late and not early?

If Shannon and Kanon arrived at 23:49 or so, and when the knock is heard it passed nearly one hour, then the right time then was quite after midnight.

ijriims · 2009-12-29, 09:04

An additional clue was that the bell ring for 24:00 Oct 5th rang twice. First at the start of the fantasy court, second when Battler was to be revived in ???. So was there two 24:00 for Oct 5? Impossible. So I had clue to doubt the bell ring to be unreliable.

---------------------------------------

You could treat the sentence "barely an hour ago" to be a mistake made by GM, she wanted to portray Shannon and Kanon coming after 23:49 and knock incident happened at 24:00 but that sentence betrayed the fact that they actually came in much early in time.

Jan-Poo · 2009-12-29, 09:07

As I said they couldn't possibly have come earlier. Simply because no one was there at the time. At that time Battler and Erika were still looking at the gold. You'd have to distrust any single clock information we have been given. Not to mention you'd have to distrust Erika herself that points the time when the gold discovery was announced around 23:00

I think you should reconsider your theory and claim that the clock was running late rather than early

2009-12-29, 01:45	Link #4583
ijriims Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: HK, China	A bit off topic, it seems that EP6 is out today. Has anyone already ordered it? --------------------------------------------------------- One should solve EP5 basing on one's theory on EP1-4, otherwise, one is going to fall for the dirty trick set by Ryukishi07 in EP5 if one tries to solve EP1-4 using information from EP5. The major purpose of EP5 is to state some of the Beatrice's motives (not for revenge, not for fun), the game is already solvable and introduce Batter the Infinite Magician. The information from EP5 was not necessary from the beginning, if one has already found the "Answer". I have seen many people trying to solve EP5 like an episode from Question Arc, but not using their own theory from EP1-4 to solve EP5. Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-29 at 02:05.

2009-12-29, 02:17	Link #4585
Li Jianliang This is my ____ face Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In front of my laptop Age: 36	Spoiler for Observations concerning murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in EP5: 1. Murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in the cousins' room of the guesthouse The cousins were still alive and well at midnight (0AM). Rosa entered the guesthouse at 1AM and promptly went upstairs to sleep because of a cold. Strangely she is found murdered in the same room in the morning at 7AM. Question: What was Rosa doing in the cousins' room? Rosa may have been checking up on Maria and happened to walk in while the culprit was killing the other three people, and she got killed, too. Or she was told to go to the room at 1AM. Or she was disoriented and entered the wrong room? Rosa asked Genji for cold medicine sometime between 11PM and 0AM, which Shannon and Kanon brought, if I remember correctly. It is possible that the culprit might have given or made the cold medicine something strong enough to make her too subdued or weakened to fight back. It would make sense to say the cousins might have gotten some similar treatment or were killed as they slept defenselessly. Question: How did the culprit get into the cousins' room? If Erika's watch over the lounge from 1AM to 3AM and eavesdropping on the cousins' room from 3AM to morning were flawless, then the murder must have occurred between 0AM and 1AM. However, during that time, most of the people were in the mansion in each other's presence, thereby giving them alibis, but they were not observed by Erika. Erika personally proved the alibis of Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Gohda. If no one snuck out from the dinner room meeting in the mansion, then Genji seems to be a possible candidate, getting to the guesthouse between leaving the dinner room and informing Natsuhi of the phone call. Question: How did the culprit get out of the cousins' room? The culprit could've entered and left the room very quickly, but Rosa went upstairs pretty much at 1AM, at which point Erika began her watch in the lounge, so the no one could've left the second floor without catching her eye by this point. Rosa couldn't have committed suicide, nor was she killed by a trap. Question: Was Battler unknowingly in the same room as the culprit? Working off the idea that the culprit didn't (couldn't) leave the room after Rosa entered at 1AM, it's possible that the culprit was still in there when Battler entered at 3AM, and just stayed silent for the entire night. However, that doesn't resolve the problem of getting out of the room. Since Erika didn't hear anything suspicious for the entire night until Battler screamed like a little girl at 7AM...it doesn't seem like Battler would overlook another person when he discovered the bodies in the morning. Spoiler for Theory concerning murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in EP5: The most plausible theory I have at the moment for the murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa is that the culprit entered the cousins' room between 0AM and 1AM. The culprit killed the three as they slept and also killed Rosa when she entered at 1AM. Whether Rosa entered to check up on Maria or mistook the cousins' room for her own due to disorientation by 'cold medicine', it is not significant. After 1AM, the culprit left the cousins' room and hid elsewhere on the second floor (perhaps in Rosa's room, since other people knew she'd be sleeping and not bother her), so Erika never sees anyone leaving the second floor from 1AM to 3AM. When Battler and Erika went into their rooms at 3AM, the culprit quietly sneaked out, since Erika was only focused on listening to sounds from Battler's (the cousins') room. Following along the above theory, then culprit for the murder of the above four is likely to be Eva, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Kanon, or Shannon. Natsuhi is not the culprit. Krauss is not the culprit. Battler is not the culprit. Erika personally proved the alibis of Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo in the guesthouse. Erika is not the culprit. Genji was sealed into his room at 1AM, so chronologically it rules out his participation. Rudolf kept Battler from leaving the dining room at 1AM, so he couldn't have been in cousins' room, either. The deaths were of homicide, so that rules out the cousins and Rosa committing suicide. If Rosa killed the cousins, it would still leave the question 'How did who kill Rosa?'. Battler was also sleep-deprived in the dining room and simply noted that the family 'discussions' were still going on from 1AM to 3AM, so there is no reliable observation from him about who exactly was in the room with him. The last 'reliable', non-sleep-deprived Battler observation was at 0:04AM. ...I guess the who list is still five people strong, but at least it's whittled down from eighteen. EDIT: Aw, shoot, I thought I was missing something... At the moment of 24 o'clock, in the hallway of the second floor of the mansion were Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji. All of the rest of the people were in the dining room on the first floor. Until 1 o'clock in the morning, not a single person out of all people in the dining room withdrew from the dining room...! After Genji finished relaying the phone call, he immediately returned straight to the sleeping quarters. Eva put a seal on Genji's sleeping quarters at 1 o'clock in the morning, and it was broken by Kanon and Kumasawa when they discovered his incident in the morning. During the short break at 1 o'clock in the morning, the first to leave the dining room were Rosa and Eva. All of the humans in the dining room stayed there until Eva returned. Eva, after seeing Rosa off, went to the sleeping quarters and did the seal. Undoubtedly, she never went inside the room in that case. With Erika's scientific investigations as the basis and further combined with the red truth, she declared that Genji did not leave the mansion after 24 o'clock... __________________ Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru episode 5: End of the golden witch Translations & summaries & a billion screenshots Part I \| Part II \| Part III \| Part IV \| Part V \| Part VI \| Part VII \| Part VIII \| Part IX \| Part X \| Part XI \| Part XII In progress Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru episode 6: Dawn of the golden witch Translations & summaries & screenshots Part I \| Part II In progress Last edited by Li Jianliang; 2009-12-29 at 02:40.

2009-12-29, 02:18	Link #4586
ijriims Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: HK, China	Not that EP5 contains no new information, just that none of the information is really necessary, and many of them got to be misleading anyway... The trick... in my opinion, is some of the normal scenes (devoid of fantasy element) were completely fake. For example, some scenes before Oct 4th 1986... ------------------ @Li Jianliang: If you trusted the narration that Rudolf kept Batter from leaving at 1am, then you must also trust that Shannon, Kanon, Eva, Kyrie and Hideyoshi were inside the parlor as well. The red texts said that 24時の時点で、屋敷の2階廊下には、夏妃と蔵臼、源次がいた。残りは全員、1階の食堂。食堂の全員は、午前1時まで、誰一人食堂を退出していない…！ So the five cannot get to guesthouse to murder the five during 00:00-1:00am as well Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-29 at 02:31.

2009-12-29, 03:00	Link #4588
Sir Andy Richter Wuh? Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: In my bed. It's great. Age: 33	Uhh, what do you guys think of the theory that Spoiler for EP5: The first twilight victims were faking being dead? Then when they were moved, the real culprit (In the "fake our deaths for whatever reason group" but not necessarily a participant) actually killed them, and then they were left wherever that was. If you notice, none of the adults' behavior after the first twilight suggests they're in any danger at all. Why do they not go for Kinzo's guns? etc.

2009-12-29, 08:41	Link #4595
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	She didn't need to be present. She knew when the gold was found and she was with Battler when they returned to the Main house to announce it. 22:47 is what the clock says when Erika and Battler are in front of the gold. If you are using the clock as an objective measure anyway then why don't you use it when the family returns to the Mansion after seeing the gold which is 23:49 ? __________________

2009-12-29, 01:33	Link #4581
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Then it should have taken three wolves to take them down. The problem with the statment is really that the wolves and sheep puzzle never had a provision for blinding either type of animal, so you can only take it so far.

2009-12-29, 01:35	Link #4582
TTR 受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ Join Date: Apr 2009	Actually you're completely right. I mean, maybe it isn't that big of a deal... IIRC The tips that are in the character bios have a narrator bias, so the narrator of these bios might be placing false leads.

2009-12-29, 01:58	Link #4584
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	I don't think that's entirely true. EP5 certainly brings new information to the table, and running away from it for fear of the "dirty trick"... well, Ryukishi is full of dirty tricks anyway, so it's not like people are just lapping everything up. EP1-4 should be technically solvable, but that doesn't mean later EPs can't be helpful. And it's not like we have a concensus for the solution to EP1-4 after all this time, so expecting one is probably unreasonable at this point.

2009-12-29, 02:35	Link #4587
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Your biggest flaw with the 1st twilight is that it couldn't have happened at all during the night, because of the red text concerning the bodies. They weren't moved after they died, which means they had to be moved before they died. In short none of the victims could have been dead when discovered at 7am.

2009-12-29, 03:53	Link #4590
Joneleth Blue Wizard Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Brussels Age: 39	Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?

2009-12-29, 08:51	Link #4596
ijriims Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: HK, China	The only insight given by EP5, was on why Eva and Hideyoshi left the family meeting so early. It was always suspicious considering that they continued the "discussion" overnight in EP3 and EP5, their early withdrawal from the discussion did not make much sense. From EP5, we knew that there should be an acting performed the next morning, and then they could find an excuse to break into Kinzo's study. So in EP1, Eva also planned for an acting, this time the fives were Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gohda and Shannon. But this was not a plan for them to be "killed" but just missing. Krauss went missing was surprising to them, actually. The next morning when Natsuhi said she was going to inform Kinzo, she slipped the receipt between the door and wanted to force Natsuhi to admit she was hiding Kinzo's death again. The sixes' bodies were found inside the garden shed was out of her and Hideyoshi's plan.

2009-12-29, 08:58	Link #4598
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	By which premise you trust something that was said in the game board more than the clock? We have several cases when we are sure that something that is said by characters in the gameboard isn't reliable. But do we have any case where we know the clock time is false? Even in the case they are correct, it doesn't help your theory. You said that the knock on the door actually happened at 23:20, right? So if Kanon and Shannon arrived one hour before it should have happened at 22:20+. But that's simply impossible. Rather wouldn't this point out that the clock is running late and not early? If Shannon and Kanon arrived at 23:49 or so, and when the knock is heard it passed nearly one hour, then the right time then was quite after midnight. __________________

2009-12-29, 09:04	Link #4599
ijriims Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: HK, China	An additional clue was that the bell ring for 24:00 Oct 5th rang twice. First at the start of the fantasy court, second when Battler was to be revived in ???. So was there two 24:00 for Oct 5? Impossible. So I had clue to doubt the bell ring to be unreliable. --------------------------------------- You could treat the sentence "barely an hour ago" to be a mistake made by GM, she wanted to portray Shannon and Kanon coming after 23:49 and knock incident happened at 24:00 but that sentence betrayed the fact that they actually came in much early in time.

2009-12-29, 09:07	Link #4600
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	As I said they couldn't possibly have come earlier. Simply because no one was there at the time. At that time Battler and Erika were still looking at the gold. You'd have to distrust any single clock information we have been given. Not to mention you'd have to distrust Erika herself that points the time when the gold discovery was announced around 23:00 I think you should reconsider your theory and claim that the clock was running late rather than early __________________