[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

I don't know for the rest, but I am sure that X is indeed related to red, because it was even said by Lambdadelta that X = A basis that doesn't need to be explained.

Umm.... that's because X is used as a variable in math not because it's an important letter. She could have easily used a completely different letter from the alphabet and meant the same thing... X and Y are just the most common ones that are used.

Besides it's being used in Blue so that means the Blue doesn't always have to explain it's basis either.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

It does end up a choice between "Love for Shkanontrice" and "Love for every other character on the board".

Not like Shkanontrice isn't most of them if she exists...

I challenge you to find a version of Shkanontrice which has her truly loving all of he characters on the game board and wanting what's best for them. I can guarantee that it is possible to do.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Oliver

It does end up a choice between "Love for Shkanontrice" and "Love for every other character on the board".

Not like Shkanontrice isn't most of them if she exists...

My point is that "love" is about how you judge people. It doesn't change reality and it isn't our job to write the story.

It's not like I "want" shkanontrice to be true.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

My point is that "love" is about how you judge people. It doesn't change reality and it isn't our job to write the story.

It's not like I "want" shkanontrice to be true.

It doesn't mean you can't see theories that don't end up with people being judged either. Or at least judged as much.

I got the impression that Battler and Beato were there by proxy. They don't really have to be part of this love trial at all they just chose to. Beato acts like she was an observer the whole time not getting involved more than she had to. She also acted more "Human" and called herself as such than the rest of the "Furniture". She really just doesn't belong there.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I challenge you to find a version of Shkanontrice which has her truly loving all of he characters on the game board and wanting what's best for them. I can guarantee that it is possible to do.

I'm afraid it's not very fair to challenge people to create Shkanontrice interpretations when a complete writeup of your own theory is still not available as far as I can see. If we're to discuss the peculiarities of Sayo's world view and emotional ties, that information being available in a complete form inside your brain is not sufficient.

But sure, it's possible. With sufficient assumptions about the nature and emotional makeup of Shkanontrice, absolutely every interpretation is possible. What I am saying is that once you do that, all the other characters inevitably get no love from you. After all, if Shkanontrice isn't morally responsible for the entire mess, they have to be.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Goes and approaches Kyrie in ep6. Kyrie joins the FT fakers.[/list]I'm just sayin'.

Doesn't recruiting people for faking remove the base of that trial anyway? Wasn't it to prove your willing to kill someone for the person you love? In reality they didn't do that.

[UsagiTenpura]

So you're saying that "love can excuse all sins" is the message given to us by Umineko?
It seems to contradict with many messages to me. In the Ange/Kasumi exchange for instance, I had more the feeling that Ange pitited her for clinging on her negative emotions, as she was gradually learning to view Maria as a strong person who clung on the few positive things in her life.

Maria is full of love.
Kasumi has no love.
This is what Ange understood.

But to put it sorta clearer, it's like Jessica said to Kyrie in arc 6. "If you enjoy that hell so much then burn in it forever". That's what I think Shkanontrice should be told.

Basically I do understand that we can understand everyone's actions and behavior as a result of their tragic lives. However it seems to mostly lead us to pity. I can pity Skanontrice alright, but that's sorta exactly my point. Ange looked down on Kasumi and Eva as pitiful people and saw Maria as a really strong person. It's debatable which had the worst time among them. I'd like to see Beatrice as a really strong person, akin to Maria, and not some pitiful crazy girl. I'd like to believe we're not dealing with Takano #2.

The things I mentioned aren't that trivial since they could be REAONS for murder. For instance George is often theorized of being a culprit and was often shown to have the resolve to kill. If he plans to disinherit himself from his family and crush his mother's dreams and all of that, for a "fake person" and that Shannon can't even tell him the truth to stop him from going that far... These things aren't trivial anymore.

Btw Okonogi's perspective, I'm not sure what it is, however we're talking about a guy using Ange as bait to kill Kasumi and then have her shot in the hell as well. And he's the one who says "without love it cannot be seen". Maybe I don't have enough love to appreciate murdering a child for money reasons.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I'm afraid it's not very fair to challenge people to create Shkanontrice interpretations when a complete writeup of your own theory is still not available as far as I can see. If we're to discuss the peculiarities of Sayo's world view and emotional ties, that information being available in a complete form inside your brain is not sufficient.

Wait a second, it's not fair for me to ask people to think of a theory for themselves? That's exactly the wrong outlook to be taking. If I can reach the conclusion, then other people can too. You're a smart person, so I'm sure you could do it if you tried.

We know from EP6 that Sayo is worthy of Battler's compassion, at least in his eyes. Therefore, it's impossible for her to be an evil person. Sayo is not allowed to be evil. She is, however, allowed to be ignorant, childish, and shortsighted. She's allowed to make mistakes that she shouldn't have. She's allowed to have a belief system that's difficult for most people to understand. She's allowed to have grown up isolated and alone.

Remember, as they said way back in EP1, a person's age isn't determined by how long they've lived, but by how much they've experienced. The Beato from the EP3 flashback was much older than Rosa, but she still had the mind of a child. It's impossible for Sayo to have been quite that isolated, but she probably did spend most of her life on the island. Remember how uncomfortable Kanon was in a crowd during EP2's school festival.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Remember how uncomfortable Kanon was in a crowd during EP2's school festival.

He was uncomfortable during a crowd of Ushiromiyas during episode 1 too. That's just because as Jessica says "he's a bit unsociable". That may be a hint to you, but it's explained easily through Jessica either way. I'd be uncomfortable too if I was him.

Also I think your too attached to the "come remember what form did you used to have?" Line.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

He was uncomfortable during a crowd of Ushiromiyas during episode 1 too. That's just because as Jessica says "he's a bit unsociable". That may be a hint to you, but it's explained easily through Jessica either way.

See, this is exactly the problem. If I were trying to prove Shkanon correct, this would be a valid statement, but since you're trying to prove my point of view wrong, it is not. Since I first found this theory, I have always maintained that it is only a possible solution, not the only possible solution (and I believe I've said since the beginning that I'm almost certainly missing something important). Showing that there might be another way to interpret clue X or Y is not a valid counterargument.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Wait a second, it's not fair for me to ask people to think of a theory for themselves? That's exactly the wrong outlook to be taking. If I can reach the conclusion, then other people can too. You're a smart person, so I'm sure you could do it if you tried.

Is it okay for me to think without telling you every detail? Sure, I thought about one. Now, how do we know we're thinking of the same thing?

It's not fair to ask other people to write up your entire theory for you -- whether it's truly a solid one or not. Even if it's the only true one. Especially if you believe it to be the only true one.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

We know from EP6 that Sayo is worthy of Battler's compassion, at least in his eyes. Therefore, it's impossible for her to be an evil person.

...wait, so evil people are by definition not worthy of compassion?...

I'm afraid I'm not from your universe, which, while isn't anything new, is readily apparent from these two sentences -- as they are extremely alien to me.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Showing that there might be another way to interpret clue X or Y is not a valid counterargument.

It is because as you just said it's only a possible one. Showing that there are other ways to interpret it is a good reminder isn't it?

There are also lots of times where you maintain "X makes me think this is true" about answers. More recently it was that you maintained Beatrice was the culprit from reading episode 6 and that it's still possible there is someone else behind it, but nobody else had that impression that she had to be.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Judoh

It is because as you just said it's only a possible one. Showing that there are other ways to interpret it is a good reminder isn't it?

It's a good reminder that it's only a possible theory, but not legitimate for disproving it altogether.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Is it okay for me to think without telling you every detail? Sure, I thought about one. Now, how do we know we're thinking of the same thing?

It's not fair to ask other people to write up your entire theory for you -- whether it's truly a solid one or not. Even if it's the only true one. Especially if you believe it to be the only true one.

I've never said that my theory is the only true one. I believe I've said dozens of times that it's only one possible solution that works, and that I've almost certainly missed something. And this is not the first time I've had to repeat that.

Okay, so you've thought of a counterexample. Are you satisfied with it? If so, then admit that it's possible and tell us all what you think. If not, then search for another one.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, so you've thought of a counterexample. Are you satisfied with it? If so, then admit that it's possible and tell us all what you think. If not, then search for another one.

A counterexample to what exactly? If you don't wish to see the strawman version of your theory attacked, please put the real one out into the field. I am not about to put up another strawman.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

It's a good reminder that it's only a possible theory, but not legitimate for disproving it altogether.

And from what he says it's impossible to disprove, which I think is his point. So I can't say I have a different opinion about something he considers a hint that can be interpreted a different way because it doesn't disprove it? When did that become a rule?

I believe he takes this stance because he wants to avoid criticism and he maintains that looking at it in a different way doesn't prove him wrong. When anyone confident in their theory would be able to challenge that. Or else say "yeah that's true it can be looked at that way also let's move on"

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

A counterexample to what exactly? If you don't wish to see the strawman version of your theory attacked, please put the real one out into the field. I am not about to put up another strawman.

It's not my theory. It's the answer to whether or not Shkanontrice can work. I have one possible solution, but it may be that you can find another better one. If I lay out my theory, then you'll attack every point, showing that X doesn't necessarily count as a clue, or Y could be explained by something else. You don't want me to lay out my theory because you're looking for the true answer to the game. If you're really honest with yourself, the reason is because you want to defeat it and prove me wrong. The goal of this game is not to let your personal theories "win", it's to find the truth. I don't care if all of my theories prove to be completely wrong (I've proven many of them wrong myself) as long as they lead us to an acceptable answer at the end.

I believe he takes this stance because he wants to avoid criticism and he maintains that looking at it in a different way doesn't prove him wrong.

Hell yes I maintain that.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It's not my theory. It's the answer to whether or not Shkanontrice can work. I have one possible solution, but it may be that you can find another better one.

Sorry. I find looking for possible solutions to how a Doubletrice can work much more interesting at this point.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If I lay out my theory, then you'll attack every point, showing that X doesn't necessarily count as a clue, or Y could be explained by something else. You don't want me to lay out my theory because you're looking for the true answer to the game. If you're really honest with yourself, the reason is because you want to defeat it and prove me wrong. The goal of this game is not to let your personal theories "win", it's to find the truth.

So to prevent me from doing that you will never lay out your theory in detail. Thereby "winning".

Ok. You win.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Sorry. I find looking for possible solutions to how a Doubletrice can work much more interesting at this point.

Well, if you aren't going to take the time to look at the theory seriously, you can hardly claim that there can be no good answer.

Originally Posted by Oliver

So to prevent me from doing that you will never lay out your theory in detail. Thereby "winning".

Ok. You win.

I see you haven't understood a word I've said.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It's not my theory. It's the answer to whether or not Shkanontrice can work. I have one possible solution, but it may be that you can find another better one. If I lay out my theory, then you'll attack every point, showing that X doesn't necessarily count as a clue, or Y could be explained by something else. You don't want me to lay out my theory because you're looking for the true answer to the game. If you're really honest with yourself, the reason is because you want to defeat it and prove me wrong. The goal of this game is not to let your personal theories "win", it's to find the truth. I don't care if all of my theories prove to be completely wrong (I've proven many of them wrong myself) as long as they lead us to an acceptable answer at the end.

I am legitimately curious about it; I'd recommend you put it up here. After all, if you really do have the answer, then you have bragging rights over all of us when EP8 comes out

If there's a problem, then we can collectively revise it. Of course there might be someone that wants their own personal theory to win, but I believe that "The Answer" will be a bit of a collaboration between ALL of us.