Toradora! - Episode 25 (END) Discussion / Poll

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Shabazza

http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...909&attid=6853 very good review. Pretty much sums up why Toradora is just below average.

Odd, that's not what the review seems to say -- the reviewer tends to dislike romcoms anyway (he considers Kanon to be the "endgame" in romance) but to quote him:

Originally Posted by anidb,grudgeal

Overall, Toradora escapes with an overall positive enjoyment value, albeit a slight one.

How is that "below average"? And compared to what? Other romcoms? Anime in general?

I could dissect the whole review (which is actually remarkably positive while pointing out any weaknesses) - but these questions need to be answered first.
I like the fact he notices that the story is *really* rather a "seinen" story that simply got picked up by a "shonen" label so some critiques are simply coming from the wrong assumptions.

The reviewer's summation:

Originally Posted by anidb,grudgeal

Ultimately, Toradora is a solid ‘above average’ anime, with plenty of both good and excellent spots.

Pretty much sums up his review. Did you not think anyone was actually going to read it?

[typhonsentra]

Originally Posted by Shabazza

http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...909&attid=6853 very good review. Pretty much sums up why Toradora is just below average.

I know I've become someone who responds to each and every contrarian response in this thread but this particular review really does seem to encompass the majority of complaints people have against the show. For those who opened this link and thought "TL : DR", I'll give the summary:

Toradora is a harem/shipping anime that's "Too predictable". He complains a bit about disliking the tone change in the second half which is fair but that's the main thing he keeps coming back to: Minori and Ami not getting enough screen time because the show focuses on the "Destined couple" (I.E., the title characters) too much.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Toradora is a harem/shipping anime that's "Too predictable". He complains a bit about disliking the tone change in the second half which is fair but that's the main thing he keeps coming back to: Minori and Ami not getting enough screen time because the show focuses on the "Destined couple" (I.E., the title characters) too much.

Misaimed Fandom, anyone?

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Odd, that's not what the review seems to say -- the reviewer tends to dislike romcoms anyway (he considers Kanon to be the "endgame" in romance) but to quote him:
How is that "below average"? And compared to what? Other romcoms? Anime in general?

I could dissect the whole review (which is actually remarkably positive while pointing out any weaknesses) - but these questions need to be answered first.
I like the fact he notices that the story is *really* rather a "seinen" story that simply got picked up by a "shonen" label so some critiques are simply coming from the wrong assumptions.

The reviewer's summation:
Pretty much sums up his review. Did you not think anyone was actually going to read it?

haha busted!

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Misaimed Fandom, anyone?

Or more that romantic comedy is stereotyped to be a harem anime, particularly shonen. No 'harem' and some ( a thankful minority) fans freak out.

Glad the reviewer was atleast positive in the finale.

Though I've read/seen plenty of romcom's that *are not* harem.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

No, what I said was arrogant was the attitude that looking back at the scenes isn't necessary.

Ok I'm arrogant, it's not worth the time to revisit anime when I am already backlogged on other shows.

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Are you talking about her calling Ryuuji a liar on the street after work or her running away from home? If it's the first, you really consider that a huge blow-up? She basically said (I wouldn't even call it yelling) that she's angry that they were going behind her back to do this and that he should be concentrating on his studies. If it's the latter, she's just childish and always have been. I don't see how that's out of character for her, especially since she has a history of running away when she thinks she's in trouble/has caused trouble.

Picking up her bags and leaving Ryuji is not out of character because she already ran away once?

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I think it's resolved because we see no indication that he's planning to go to college anymore. I'd like to point out though that Ryuuji isn't really looking to financially support her so much as he views going to college as too much of a burden on her. The reason he took the part time job in the show was because it was Yasuko's job and she was sick through that period.

Why do you think that I do not understand this? I get it. I do not disagree with the character's intentions here, but this conflict was NOT resolved. The fact that you would use the word "seems" already shows me that you are expressing doubt in his actions. We do not know what he ultimately decided to do.

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Her character isn't as needy as the novel version, that's the way I look at it. So long as their are people out there who care about her and can truly accept her that's enough for her and she can move on with her life. Is this her ideal situation? Probably not but she's happy and we saw nothing to indicate that she feels otherwise.

The novel isn't relevant here. She said in the anime that only one person has seen through her.

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I'd like to see more on her too but I think they gave us enough information for what the story required, she had her scene where she made peace with her position in regards to Ryuuji and the group as a whole and that's all that can be said about it. What she does after graduation is up to her, maybe we'll get an OVA, which I'd like (But again, it's not necessary).

I am not asking for them to make episodes of her or other characters after graduation, but I would like to see these character's final determinations. We were kind of left hanging with her aspirations, and ultimately I feel like we never got to know the real Ami in this anime.

@Zippicus

I did not misunderstand or miss anything about the relationship. I detest this argument of "...oh you don't agree with me, so you must have missed something."

And whoever said standard treatment was OK? I do no like standard treatment.

[SageGaiGar]

[QUOTE=Reckoner;2302270]Ok I'm arrogant, it's not worth the time to revisit anime when I am already backlogged on other shows.



Picking up her bags and leaving Ryuji is not out of character because she already ran away once?

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I think it's resolved because we see no indication that he's planning to go to college anymore. I'd like to point out though that Ryuuji isn't really looking to financially support her so much as he views going to college as too much of a burden on her. The reason he took the part time job in the show was because it was Yasuko's job and she was sick through that period.

Why do you think that I do not understand this? I get it. I do not disagree with the character's intentions here, but this conflict was NOT resolved. The fact that you would use the word "seems" already shows me that you are expressing doubt in his actions. We do not know what he ultimately decided to do.



The novel isn't relevant here. She said in the anime that only one person has seen through her.



I am not asking for them to make episodes of her or other characters after graduation, but I would like to see these character's final determinations. We were kind of left hanging with her aspirations, and ultimately I feel like we never got to know the real Ami in this anime.

@Zippicus

I did not misunderstand or miss anything about the relationship. I detest this argument of "...oh you don't agree with me, so you must have missed something."

And whoever said standard treatment was OK? I do no like standard treatment.

I'm grateful enough that you didn't give it a 1 rating out of spite.

As for the real Ami, I think it's telling enough that she states she 'is a kid'. Being mature and 'acting' mature are two separate things, that she is trying to quit being fake is miles away from where she was at the start.

[roan]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The translators at baka-tsuki aren't necessarily experienced writers, so they're just going for "literal" (which often means that subtlety or poetic metaphor gets trampled). I've just gotten a copy of the PROFESSIONALLY translated first volume of SHnY from YEN press .... well, the baka-tsuki people should pat themselves on the back because the PROFESSIONAL volume 1 SHnY reads pretty rough as well.

Oh, dear. How does the writing compare?

[typhonsentra]

Picking up her bags and leaving Ryuji is not out of character because she already ran away once?

Again, she's immature. Looking at it from our perspective it was a terrible thing for a parent to do but from hers he was abandoning her and she's running away from the pain. Look at their relationship up to this point, he's almost like a parent for her. She doesn't think like an adult, at least when it comes to things like this.

Why do you think that I do not understand this? I get it. I do not disagree with the character's intentions here, but this conflict was NOT resolved. The fact that you would use the word "seems" already shows me that you are expressing doubt in his actions. We do not know what he ultimately decided to do.

Yeah it was an aspect that wasn't delved into much but Ryuuji did mark "Work" in this version and never changed it did he? There's wiggle room and some vagueness (Did he really want that?) I'll concede but if you want an answer, there it was. In the book he became the top of his class, here there's no indication of that.

The novel isn't relevant here. She said in the anime that only one person has seen through her.

The reason I brought up the novel was because you seem to be viewing Ami as needing these relationships and people close to her constantly to be happy. There's nothing in the show that should leave you to believe she needs Ryuuji or the group that badly to go on living the way she seems to in the books (At least from what we know about 9 and 10 so far). The anime adaptation of her didn't seem sad at the parting during graduation, did she?

I am not asking for them to make episodes of her or other characters after graduation, but I would like to see these character's final determinations. We were kind of left hanging with her aspirations, and ultimately I feel like we never got to know the real Ami in this anime.

Agreed, Ami definitely was an enigma throughout most of the show, we know nothing about her family life and only a few hints of what she was doing before coming to this school. But... I think the reason we never hear her talk much about what she wants to do when she grows up is another thing that's left unsaid: She enjoys what she's doing now. I never saw any indication that she's unhappy modeling. Look at how she talks about life with Minori when everyone else leaves after: She probably has put thought into long-term goals already, or maybe whatever she does after she gets too old to model isn't important to her, maybe she doesn't want to work?

[germanturkey]

meh.. i did not enjoy this show that much. the first half was entertaining, but the second half kind of soured it. i felt the ending was a bit rushed, and it was rather childish notion that he thought he'd love her forever when she left. i personally thought it would have been better if she really wasn't in the room at the end. would have made it more powerful.

wedding scene was a bit corny, though surprisingly well done, considering what i expected. Ami was gold in the gym storage room. wtb spin off of her only.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

@Zippicus

I did not misunderstand or miss anything about the relationship. I detest this argument of "...oh you don't agree with me, so you must have missed something."

And whoever said standard treatment was OK? I do no like standard treatment.

I guess we'll have to chalk it up as two people watching the same thing but seeing two different things. The version I saw manged to tie up some of the loose ends you complained about so I figured it would be helpful to share that. Since you're apparently not interested I'll leave it at that.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by roan

Oh, dear. How does the writing compare?

Well.... this is pretty off-topic.
All I was saying was that the baka-tsuki people should pat themselves on the back for doing just about as well with Spice&Wolf and Toradora! as the *professional* translate/edit team who did the work on SHnY volume 1.

It takes a fair amount of tuning to get an english translation of japanese to sound as smooth or poetic as the original japanese sounds.

[Shabazza]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Odd, that's not what the review seems to say -- the reviewer tends to dislike romcoms anyway (he considers Kanon to be the "endgame" in romance) but to quote him:
How is that "below average"? And compared to what? Other romcoms? Anime in general?

I could dissect the whole review (which is actually remarkably positive while pointing out any weaknesses) - but these questions need to be answered first.
I like the fact he notices that the story is *really* rather a "seinen" story that simply got picked up by a "shonen" label so some critiques are simply coming from the wrong assumptions.

The reviewer's summation:
Pretty much sums up his review. Did you not think anyone was actually going to read it?

Just because in his opinion it is above average doesn't mean that it is my opinion.
I only said that it "sums it up" which means that he listed the important points.

However the points have different importance to me and therefore I come up with a different total rating compared to him. In my opinion the bad points outweigh the good points while for him it's reversed.

[Sinestra]

I just want to say IN YOUR FACE to all those who disagreed with me that Kitamura would end studying in America after graduation LOL. It was so obvious after the student prez left to go school in America after basically confessing she did love him and notice how they didnt fix Kitamura up with any of the other prospects around him.

Granted it may be heavily implied but i highly doubt he would to america without looking her up.

[Keio]

Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou

Despite the anime constantly telling us that Ami is hot, attractive, good-looking, a model, etc... I always felt Taiga was better looking

Originally Posted by Avira

The two things Ami has is...height and, quite frankly, boobs
Which seems to be all you need to be called beautiful in Japan(don't forget the boobs, they're IMPORTANT.)
But I always thought Taiga was simply prettier.


Ami's hair is boring:/

Personally I find the Taiga in the novel illustrations prettier than in the anime.

Originally Posted by Shabazza

Just because in his opinion it is above average doesn't mean that it is my opinion.
I only said that it "sums it up" which means that he listed the important points.

However the points have different importance to me and therefore I come up with a different total rating compared to him. In my opinion the bad points outweigh the good points while for him it's reversed.

Then you should have made that clear when you posted the link to the review.

[FireSong]

So much excitement.. Maybe Reckoner just wanted a Chrno Crusade style ending,

Spoiler for Chrno Crusade ending:

where they held hands and died. =p

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

I think Taiga actually did stay in Japan for the whole year. Her uniform gives a clue.

Someone (can't find the post) said that uniform was that of a upscale girl's academy: an excellent destination for Taiga to finish out at I suppose if she went to work things out with her mom.

At least on her, it looked quite attractive.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by FireSong

So much excitement.. Maybe Reckoner just wanted a Chrno Crusade style ending,

Spoiler for Chrno Crusade Ending:

where they held hands and died. =p

lmao

People should not take me too seriously when it comes to shows of this genre. I generally dislike 7/10 endings with animes like these and I still cannot figure out the correct formula for making me feel satisfied in the end after watching what seems to be a countless amount of anime.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

lmao

People should not take me too seriously when it comes to shows of this genre. I generally dislike 7/10 endings with animes like these and I still cannot figure out the correct formula for making me feel satisfied in the end after watching what seems to be a countless amount of anime.

aye, out of the multiple dozens of anime romances I've seen - I can still count the ones I was satisfied with on less than 10 fingers. Probably an equal number that I "like but am unhappy with facets thereof"...

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Someone (can't find the post) said that uniform was that of a upscale girl's academy: an excellent destination for Taiga to finish out at I suppose if she went to work things out with her mom.

At least on her, it looked quite attractive.

I think that's something the studio has done pretty well. Not in terms of Taiga's uniform (it's pretty sweet nonetheless ) but in terms of the ending.

A firm conclusion and confirmation of the characters' feelings, but also leaving their future uncertain enough to warrant long-lived discussion among viewers. They filled in the things that if were not present would make us rage (ie. RyujixTaiga) and left the anime open-ended to make us long for more. Moreover, they included small bits of clues (Taiga's uniform, Kitamura going overseas, etc, etc) to satisfy viewers but still keep Toradora in their memory.

I define a good anime as a show that will keep me reminiscing about it for more than two weeks after it's ending. With that definition, I think Toradora will go beyond my expectations.