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Old 2014-03-19, 21:28   Link #12081
Chosen_Hero
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
While I agree they're not stock enemies, a lot of them are very similar, in that they like ranged attacks, usually don't know how to fight bare-handed, depend on magica/esper powers, and are really good people at heart (and are weak to talking). Until Gremlin, I think there were about two actual villains he faced. And even Gremlin's a mixed bag.

Tatsuya has none of those limitations.

The only evidence of Touma's growth is his ability to read body-language, and he learned that he could grab the superpowers he couldn't neutralize.

Part of this is because of Touma's limited bag of tricks. Because he's basically got a right arm and a mouth, his strategy most of the time is to dodge until he can get into fist range. The times he fought someone who knew how to fight at close range was Kanzaki (who spared him) and Thor, who then beat him with two broken arms.
Yes because killing grunts by the hundreds really strain Tatsuya to the point of gaining experience.

Your statement about the enemies having "the same patterns" is also wrong. Yes, no enemy is really a villain but that doesn't mean they are the same. We're talking about the fights themselves not the reason they are fighting, which us a whole other matter. Accelerator fights intirely different than Aqua, Aqua fights intirely different than Carissa, Carissa fight intrely different than Othinus, etc. The only one you can truly say fights the same way as someone else is Rensa and that's because she's supposed to be able to use any esper ability near a certain distance.

Taysuya doesn't gain experince from his fights, at least no as much since all he has to do is ES and spam Mist Dispersal or whatever and he wins.
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:28   Link #12082
TonyC1994
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A Touma vs Tatsuya discussion? Nice.

It would be interesting to see Tatsuya's Decomposition go up against Touma's Plot armor (yea I said it).
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:32   Link #12083
Chosen_Hero
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Originally Posted by TonyC1994 View Post
A Touma vs Tatsuya discussion, nice?

It would be interesting to see Tatsuya's Decomposition go up against Touma's Plot armor (yea I said it).
This again, huh, just read NT.9 it gives you 13031 reasons you're totally wrong about his so called plot armor.

Tatsuya "I'm the plot armor " Shiba is on his own level of plot armor.
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:34   Link #12084
NoLife222
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Wonder if Mahouka world has Religious organization with badass priest/shaman like the one in Touma's world?
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:37   Link #12085
Chosen_Hero
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Wonder if Mahouka world has Religious organization with badass priest/shaman like the one in Touma's world?
Could be but I don't think they do since magic in this LN is more from a scientific point than TAMNI which is based on religion. Also magic is under the direct order of the goverment and military, the most we'll see is something like Mikihiko's family but that's it. At least in my opinion.

P.S. almost forgot the Number families which pretty much decide anythin and everything about magic, at least in japan. (From what I know)
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:46   Link #12086
NoLife222
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
Could be but I don't think they do since magic in this LN is more from a scientific point than TAMNI which is based on religion. Also magic is under the direct order of the goverment and military, the most we'll see is something like Mikihiko's family but that's it. At least in my opinion.

P.S. almost forgot the Number families which pretty much decide anythin and everything about magic, at least in japan. (From what I know)
The religious one could be anti-magic faction, since they oppose human as having superpower that might challenge the authority of god (many consider magic a devil/demons gift). Since the anti magic faction is very active and the major population is still normal human, they might exist. The religious organization also tend to contradict their teaching and might have magician in their ranks by some twisting sense of calling like "fighting evil with power of evil".
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:49   Link #12087
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i wonder when tatsuya and whole batch graduate i wonder who are top strongest in first school maybe the twins + takuma
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:55   Link #12088
Chosen_Hero
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Originally Posted by NoLife222 View Post
The religious one could be anti-magic faction, since they oppose human as having superpower that might challenge the authority of god (many consider magic a devil/demons gift). Since the anti magic faction is very active and the major population is still normal human, they might exist. The religious organization also tend to contradict their teaching and might have magician in their ranks by some twisting sense of calling like "fighting evil with power of evil".
That is true and I agree with you, but you asked if an organization like in TAMNI appeared, which changes the context of the question, in this LN they way you explained it would be perfect but, organization compared to the ones in TAMNI, I don't really see it, unless they start bringing a lot of religious themes into the story, which is more political in nature.

Last edited by Chosen_Hero; 2014-03-19 at 21:57. Reason: spelling
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:55   Link #12089
Seitsuki
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Originally Posted by Riddam View Post
Except that they aren't.
And you can't use 'plot armor' when discussing characters from different works. Plot armor has to be written into the encounter, it doesn't exist, per se.

In any case, this discussion is more productive than talking about ships.
Yes they are, as in even if there are characters who are 'stronger' than them they'll win in the end. You know it, don't try argue that point. Doesn't matter how much 'damage' they sustain or how 'hard' it is. As it is I think you're proving my point, which is since they're both so horribly OP any result of their hypothesised clash is just conjectured fanwank depending on who you like more. Written into the encounter as it were. There.

On that note how dare you criticise ships. /For the God Empress
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:56   Link #12090
TonyC1994
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
This again, huh, just read NT.9 it gives you 13031 reasons you're totally wrong about his so called plot armor.

Tatsuya "I'm the plot armor " Shiba is on his own level of plot armor.
Christ, I'm only on Vol 14 of Index. If you don't mind giving me a few reasons I would appreciate it.

As for Tatsuya having plot armor, I would have to disagree. Instead he's just OPed, the novels make it a point of establishing this from the start.

However Touma, from what I've read so far, is just an ordinary guy with a very unique right hand. He should have lost most of his battles honestly. I'll use the first Accelerator battle for instance. Accelerator is a pretty smart character from what we have seen of him so far, except he decides to go full retard during his battle against Touma. Actually if you think about it, a majority of Touma's fights relies heavily on him breaking through to the other person by dialogue, then punching him/her, which for some reason always manages to end the fight.

FYI, I DO enjoy reading the Index series.
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Old 2014-03-19, 22:01   Link #12091
NoLife222
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
That is true and I agree with you, but you asked if an organization like in TAMNI appeared, which changes the context of the question, in this LN they way you explained it would be pwrfect but, organizoation compared to the ones in TAMNI, I don't really see it, unless they start bringing a lot of religious themes into the story, which is more political in nature.
True, if there is Religious organization in MKnR, it will delve more into political interest rather than religion. Perhaps an anti-magic cult use by Zhou to undermine Japan's power? However, it seems the author has no inclination to write it to a religious aspect.
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Old 2014-03-19, 22:09   Link #12092
Chosen_Hero
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Originally Posted by TonyC1994 View Post
Christ, I'm only on Vol 14 of Index. If you don't mind giving me a few reasons I would appreciate it.

As for Tatsuya having plot armor, I would have to disagree. Instead he's just OPed, the novels make it a point of establishing this from the start.

However Touma, from what I've read so far, is just an ordinary guy with a very unique right hand. He should have lost most of his battles honestly. I'll use the first Accelerator battle for instance. Accelerator is a pretty smart character from what we have seen of him so far, except he decides to go full retard during his battle against Touma. Actually if you think about it, a majority of Touma's fights relies heavily on him breaking through to the other person by dialogue, then punching him/her, which for some reason always manages to end the fight.

FYI, I DO enjoy reading the Index series.
Do you mond spoilers if not I'll send you a message with the details, also


1. There's still no denying that Touma beat Accelerator, with help yes but still beat him.

2. Vol. 14 is not a good point to judge Toumas character reach at the least NT.4 Baggage City and at the most NT.9 where Touma has one of the best deconstructions I have ever seen. After vol. 14 is where things start escalating indefinitely.

3. Touma fight his enemies by challenging their beliefs, way different than Talk no Jutsu, he fights you both physically and psychologically which is what makes his fights so amazing.

4. Well, in my opinion someone who can insta-heal is a ljving plot armor, watch as there is going to be an arc where it looks like he is going to die for some reason or another, his ability (which has been blocked be something) kicks in at the last moment because "I have to protect Miyuki".
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Old 2014-03-19, 22:28   Link #12093
TonyC1994
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
Do you mond spoilers if not I'll send you a message with the details, also


1. There's still no denying that Touma beat Accelerator, with help yes but still beat him.

2. Vol. 14 is not a good point to judge Toumas character reach at the least NT.4 Baggage City and at the most NT.9 where Touma has one of the best deconstructions I have ever seen. After vol. 14 is where things start escalating indefinitely.

3. Touma fight his enemies by challenging their beliefs, way different than Talk no Jutsu, he fights you both physically and psychologically which is what makes his fights so amazing.

4. Well, in my opinion someone who can insta-heal is a ljving plot armor, watch as there is going to be an arc where it looks like he is going to die for some reason or another, his ability (which has been blocked be something) kicks in at the last moment because "I have to protect Miyuki".
Oh no of course not, by all means go ahead.
I have heard many people praise the latest NT release and since I still have a loooong way to go, I don't mind spoilers.

Anyway, in my head, plot armor is defined as a character who is clearly weaker but consistently wins against much stronger foes because of a series of circumstances.

But for Tatsuya, I feel like the author lays out most of his abilities early on so the audience doesn't feel like Tatsuya's just pulling these magical abilities out of nowhere. When he gets into a fight, we already know just how OPed he already is, we know that he's stronger than a majority of his foes. So we don't have to expect him to win by luck.

Though Touma's fights are just as interesting too because he's the underdog.

Last edited by TonyC1994; 2014-03-19 at 22:39.
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Old 2014-03-19, 22:29   Link #12094
hakazee
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post

4. Well, in my opinion someone who can insta-heal is a ljving plot armor,
Emm no, he's simply brokenly overpower.

Like I said, the easiest way to avoid plot armor is to create your character as powerfull as possible.

There is no need to explain why your character survive.

Different with Plot Armor which should explain that your character survives because situations, or blla blaa blaa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
watch as there is going to be an arc where it looks like he is going to die for some reason or another, his ability (which has been blocked be something) kicks in at the last moment because "I have to protect Miyuki".
Hmm yeah hope so.

He can't be killed physically, but probably he can be killed mentally.
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Old 2014-03-20, 01:09   Link #12095
bietchie11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
4. Well, in my opinion someone who can insta-heal is a ljving plot armor, watch as there is going to be an arc where it looks like he is going to die for some reason or another, his ability (which has been blocked be something) kicks in at the last moment because "I have to protect Miyuki".
Well, Wolverine is a plot armor then....

I'm not sure if you truly understand what "plot armor" means...
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Old 2014-03-20, 02:05   Link #12096
fujin of shadows
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
This again, huh, just read NT.9 it gives you 13031 reasons you're totally wrong about his so called plot armor.

Tatsuya "I'm the plot armor " Shiba is on his own level of plot armor.
Let us distinguish Tatsuya and Touma shall we...

First, their similarities.

The two of them have:

Insanely Powerful abilities

Both of them are natural born fighters

They both attract trouble

They are both tactical genius

They both have a harem of their own.

Their differences:

Touma is selfless while Tatsuya is apathetic.

Touma is optimistic while Tatsuya is pragmatic, cynical and jaded.

Touma would protect everyone around him while Tatsuya could careless as long as Miyuki is unharmed and unaffected

Touma is impulsive while Tatsuya is calculating

Touma would dive headfirst into trouble while Tatsuya would analyze the situation first before taking action.

Touma's ability is limited and unknown while Tatsuya's ability gives him a bit of versatility and is absolute.

Touma's fighting style is developed through countless battles while Tatsuya's fighting style is developed through vigorous training.

Touma would aim to change the perspective of his opponent while Tatsuya would just eliminate them outright if given the chance.

Touma is forgiving while Tatsuya is merciless.

Touma cares about the reason why his enemies are targeting him while Tatsuya could careless about the intent of his enemies.

Touma would put labels on his opponents while Tatsuya would merely label his opponents as enemies that must be eliminated.

Imagination Breaker vs Decomposition

Imagination Breaker can reject any supernatural event

Decomposition can destroy any phenomenon as long as they have a form

Imagination Breaker can affect only supernatural event and it even that has limitation

Decomposition's scope is anything that has a form, phenomenon or not.

Imagination Breaker is for 1-on-1

Decomposition can be use in wide area.


Touma and Tatsuya both has merits and demerits but they are both awesome characters...
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Old 2014-03-20, 03:58   Link #12097
Echizen777
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Probably my last Index-related post but I don't think Touma relies on plot armor as much as you people claim since the 1st fight against Accel and he is a very dangerous fighter now. His precog whatever and IB are the ultimate combination, Touma is the perfect anti magician and is now an extremely good brawler with experience to boot.

Let's agree that humans in index are tougher than normal first, Accel shouldn't have survived that bullet, Shiage and Mugino are pretty durable too. Touma is not a normal boy without IB, he is no more, his punches crater concrete.

As long as you are a classic magician(those who rely solely on their magics and are muggles without it like Fiamma, Vento, Birdway) Touma has all the tools to beat you, the only way to beat him is via tricks. Even at this point Touma can't beat Acqua or Tsuchimikado ,to beat him you must best him without magic, that's all, it's not as if he was the strongest man on earth.

There is no way for Touma to beat Tatsuya, the only possibility would beat to immobilize him with his right hand(impossible for him for obvious reasons) and kill him with another tool, if he doesn't kill him regrowth will restore him even if he is unconscious, Tatsuya would kill him with a karate chop .

But I am sure Touma would beat Miyuki,Katsuto,Lina(with Brionac),Mayumi,Mikihiko,Masaki in a fight. Maybe Erika, Mari and Leo as well but guys like Lu Gonghu, Tomitsuka, Yakumo, Naotsugu would beat him easily.
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Old 2014-03-20, 05:18   Link #12098
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
But I am sure Touma would beat Miyuki,Katsuto,Lina(with Brionac),Mayumi,Mikihiko,Masaki in a fight. Maybe Erika, Mari and Leo as well but guys like Lu Gonghu, Tomitsuka, Yakumo, Naotsugu would beat him easily.
Why would you put Erika, Leo, and Mari below Tomitsuka?(which in terms of physical and both combat those 3 trashes Tomitsuka)
In terma Tomitsuka are the kind of people Touma eats for breakfast....weak willed and easily influence...#!
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Old 2014-03-20, 05:23   Link #12099
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Why would you put Erika, Leo, and Mari below Tomitsuka?(which in terms of physical and both combat those 3 trashes Tomitsuka)

Tomitsuka is Martial Arts expert. He learned Martial arts since he's very young because he can't use range magic.

He land a hit on Tatsuya. Leo can do that ? No....
Mari can do that ? No.....
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Old 2014-03-20, 05:29   Link #12100
pampz21
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Tomitsuka is Martial Arts expert. He learned Martial arts since he's very young because he can't use range magic.

He land a hit on Tatsuya. Leo can do that ? No....
Mari can do that ? No.....
Well of course he would....acceleration magic vs none? And it took 8 mins bfore he land the hit on the ears?
Well Leo and Mari would be impossible to hit Tatsuya i guess bcuz speed isnt their specialty; but they still have upper hand like Leo mutant strength and enchance data fortification and Mari chemicals that hinder movements against Tomitsuka.

Well physically no one can stand against Tatsuya except for one(that iknow of) that is limited to his age.
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