AnimeSuki Forums

Rui Brennan · 2010-07-15, 17:03

I have a weird theory that might explain why "Bern can only see a limited set of Fragments". The foundation of this theory is that a kakera is not exactly the same as a parallel universe. A basic kakera is composed by pieces, that is, "the possibility of something happening / something that happened". For example, Captain Kawabata eating some bad shellfish. Or Battler remembering his sin when eating with his cousins on the beach. Once you join all the pieces, you have a fully formed kakera, but you don't know the outcome of this kakera (e.g. whether when the seagulls cry there are survivors or not) unless you watch it. Therefore, before "watching" a kakera, you have to "create it" first.

Spoiler for Higurashi-related stuff:

Judoh · 2010-07-15, 17:06

How is that different from a parallel universe? It looks exactly the same if you ask me.

k//eternal · 2010-07-15, 17:16

I think the one difference he's getting at is the origin, in that parallel universes should already exist, while he's suggesting that kakera have to be engineered.

I'm pretty sure kakera are already there in the first place, though. Any difficulty with getting the best/worst ones is just because it's a kind of needle-in-haystack problem.

Judoh · 2010-07-15, 17:22

It's not something you can engineer though. Your entering a world where specific individuals deliberately made certain choices and that can either be advantagous or disadvantagous depending on how you go about it. By selecting a "the worst possible Kakera for Erika", for example, Bern is not engineering a world that has the most disadvantages for Erika. She's deliberately placing Erika in a world filled with loser flags from the start. It's the same as placing Erika in a game where her king is in check at the very beginning. The selecting process is all about finding a world with the least possible amount of loser flags.

Rui Brennan · 2010-07-15, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I think the one difference he's getting at is the origin, in that parallel universes should already exist, while he's suggesting that kakera have to be engineered.

Exactly. Actually, I also think that fully-formed kakera are already there in the first place (so they are the same as parallel universes)... but I have the intuition that if that is the case, then there is no universe where Battler is saved (the "good ending"), unless Meta-Battler is able to influence his piece (we have some examples where piece-Battler thinks the same things as meta-Battler) and change the fate of a kakera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

It's not something you can engineer though. Your entering a world where specific individuals deliberately made certain choices and that can either be advantagous or disadvantagous depending on how you go about it. By selecting a "the worst possible Kakera for Erika", for example, Bern is not engineering a world that has the most disadvantages for Erika. She's deliberately placing Erika in a world filled with loser flags from the start. It's the same as placing Erika in a game where her king is in check at the very beginning.

...or we can see it from another point of view: Bern engineers a world where the "pieces" are filled by loser flags that will probably lead to a certain conclusion (e.g. a tropical storm that is going to destroy the island X), and then adds the final touch: a small fragment that represents Erika and will be influenced by those flags (e.g. Erika in the middle of an island X).

Judoh · 2010-07-15, 17:35

Forcefully creating a world where there are absolutely certainly is nothing that can get in your way is a strategy Lambdadelta would utilize.

From how I understand the Kakera concept Bern just selects worlds that are interesting to her, which depends on what kind of flags have been tripped and tries to get a good result from her situation. She doesn't really engineer anything. In fact it's the opposite of that the worlds she choses were created for the sake of her selecting them.

Lambda and Bern are afraid of becoming creator witches according to the TIPS so I don't think they would get too close to that idea either.

Metaler · 2010-07-15, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heatth

The prank did happened to some level. It was said in red the five were alive until Erika killed then, at last they were faking. Since every women was in the prank, I find hard to believe they wouldn't tell their husband and child, so I can only assume they know as well.

For Kyrie be investigating Krauss study, well, that is a nice theory. It is not like she had to stay 'dead' all time. I suppose this would fill the reasons for Kyrie, Rudolf and maybe even Evam, Hideyoshi and Rosa to participate. Kruass and Natsuhi are the main problem, tough. Is Krauss that stupid to allow anyone in his study if he was hidding something there? Unless he is the only one who don't know and the rest have, somehow, fooled Natsuhi?

That's one of the reasons I believe that not everyone knew about this whole "prank" (or conspiracy. whatever. lol).

Another possibility, is that everyone might know about it, but they didn't know where each "victim" would stay "dead". And also, I think there's a scene which suggests that Krauss's study was locked (I think it was during the Jessica Vs. Kyrie scene), creating the possibility that Kyrie picked the lock and managed to break in. After all, the last thing Krauss would suspect is that Kyrie could pick locks.
But *ahem*, who knows? We already know from EP5 that Krauss is as dumb as a rock. It's possible he didn't even know he had incriminating evidence is his study. xD

Heatth · 2010-07-15, 18:17

Indeed, according to the fantasy scenes Krauss' study was locked. But, insted of Kyrie break in, wouldn't be simpler to just ask a servant for the Master Key? Even if we assume Krauss did not know were Kyrie would hide, that don't mean Kyrie couldn't ask a servant for a key. The servant wouldn't deny if s/he know about the prank/conspiracy.

delita-umw- · 2010-07-15, 19:26

Am I the only one who's horribly bothered by Ange's time travelling/incongruous time line?

Kylon99 · 2010-07-15, 19:30

I think Ange in EP6 was a character that Hachijou trotted out and wrote into her story to give herself more credentials. Didn't she ponder afterwards whether not if she will bother using Ange again or something? It's been 7 months since I played it so I can't quite remember...

I'm not sure if Ange in EP3 was 'real' now either or merely yet another character constructed for EP4's sake.

delita-umw- · 2010-07-15, 19:44

So this leaves the question what actually can be trusted about any of the scenes with Ange. Did Ange dying at Rokkenjima in ep 4 really happen? Hell, I'm not even sure if I believe Ange is still alive after jumping off the skyscraper anymore.

Kylon99 · 2010-07-15, 20:16

Well, Ange dying in 1998 is according to the ending scroll of EP4. This is the 'Game Record' is it not? The game record seems more concerned with the game itself though, with Battler dying on the first twilight in EP6 even though he didn't. And Kinzo dying in the twilights when... he didn't. So who knows what's up with Ange dying in 1998... 8)

Since I'd like to think she and Amakusa fell in love and ran off together rather than him shooting and killing her, I'd explain it as that they pretended that she had 'died' on the island.

delita-umw- · 2010-07-15, 20:46

I also wish that were the case Kylon but the only ways I can make sense of the events we are shown are:
a) ep 6 with everything about Ange is a farce written by Hachijou and Ange escapes with Amakusa never to be heard from again in ep 4.
b) story follows a bizarre non-linear only for Ange timeline scenario that just gives me headaches
c) Ange has a Higurashi-like reset of Kakera/time travel after she dies from wounds in ep 4 and suffers from amnesia to be followed by sinister reveal of Okonogi/Amakusa plot which may or may not get derailed by THE POWER OF LOVE

Conclusion: god I hate that Ryukishi wrote her back in cause it destroyed my happy little world where Ange survives Rokkenjima regardless of the ending scroll and now has just made her a convoluted mess

Kylon99 · 2010-07-15, 20:52

Wait, did you read the Author Theory posts some of us have been alluding to? There's one more option there that you should be aware of:

d. Neither Ange-1998 nor Ange-Miko (Hachijou's Ange) are the real Ange but character representations of the real Ange, known as Ange-Prime. Since they are characters based on Ange-Prime they must in some way conform to what is publicly known about the real Ange... but the author has the ability to mess with her; although if the author goes overboard they can lose credibility.

For example if there's a story about Lincoln, they must in some way base his character off the real Lincoln. Stove-pipe hat, beard and all. But perhaps this Lincoln was pulled through time by an alien, time traveler or ESPer before he went to the theatre to be shot. That's the author's ability to weave a tale with an already known and somewhat famous character.

If you need links to the Author Theory, here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=3188 (It's still a bit of a mess, I should give a shorter summary... yah.)

delita-umw- · 2010-07-15, 21:02

Mmm, good point. I'm familiar with Author Theory, but my brain seems to be of a limited capacity right now. I blame this ungodly hot weather.

Metaler · 2010-07-15, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heatth

Indeed, according to the fantasy scenes Krauss' study was locked. But, insted of Kyrie break in, wouldn't be simpler to just ask a servant for the Master Key? Even if we assume Krauss did not know were Kyrie would hide, that don't mean Kyrie couldn't ask a servant for a key. The servant wouldn't deny if s/he know about the prank/conspiracy.

Krauss probably ordered the servants not to let anyone inside, or something. '-'

Renall · 2010-07-15, 21:38

I can't imagine Kyrie just walked into Krauss's study, to be sure.

The VIP bedroom was probably also locked, though it may have just been left alone because nobody really used it.

Metaler · 2010-07-15, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

I can't imagine Kyrie just walked into Krauss's study, to be sure.

The VIP bedroom was probably also locked, though it may have just been left alone because nobody really used it.

Wasn't the VIP room the same one Suit!Beato used during EP2? Although I remember that was called the Honored Guest Room or something.

Judoh · 2010-07-15, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaler

Wasn't the VIP room the same one Suit!Beato used during EP2? Although I remember that was called the Honored Guest Room or something.

Well the "never opened VIP room" and the "Honored guestroom" are both on the second floor. That's all I know about that.

The mansion could just be very big and have a bunch of different rooms. In episode 3 the rooms were described in Virgilia's reconstruction as "2nd floor bla bla bla, 3rd floor bla bla bla". So I'd imagine a lot of rooms have duplicates on different floors with a few exceptions like the Kitchen, the Dining Hall, and Kinzo, and Krauss's studies.

winter 923 · 2010-07-15, 22:19

Ange is Part of the Story and uses magic on Rokkenjima so if you go with the Author (which i did not read) theory "this was the number of years needed to create this tale." if we allow Battler to be 19 in his time (umiwiki) then shouldn't Ange be also 19 in her time? based on the l theory.

Erika has a red bound to BATTLER since the start of EP6. what does that mean? that everything is a flashback? but then shouldn't Beatrice Portrais be there? or a red bound to Beatrice in the end? how is he related with Erika besides a 5min marriage.
Also EP2 meta world states that both Shannon and Kanon does have a Hearth but Kanons is weak. While Genji is defect, he compensated them but that does not mean repair/fix. Genji does not have a Heart.
So Genji is the one not being counted? now let's start the Genon theroy. i know, i know that won't work.

2010-07-15, 17:03	Link #3201
Rui Brennan Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009	I have a weird theory that might explain why "Bern can only see a limited set of Fragments". The foundation of this theory is that a kakera is not exactly the same as a parallel universe. A basic kakera is composed by pieces, that is, "the possibility of something happening / something that happened". For example, Captain Kawabata eating some bad shellfish. Or Battler remembering his sin when eating with his cousins on the beach. Once you join all the pieces, you have a fully formed kakera, but you don't know the outcome of this kakera (e.g. whether when the seagulls cry there are survivors or not) unless you watch it. Therefore, before "watching" a kakera, you have to "create it" first. Spoiler for Higurashi-related stuff: I thought on this crack theory mainly due to the "Putting the Pieces together" part of Matsuribayashi-hen. Also explains why Hanyuu had a difficult time to find the ideal world for Rika. Last edited by Rui Brennan; 2010-07-15 at 17:04. Reason: Completing the theory

2010-07-15, 17:06	Link #3202
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	How is that different from a parallel universe? It looks exactly the same if you ask me. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-07-15, 17:22	Link #3204
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	It's not something you can engineer though. Your entering a world where specific individuals deliberately made certain choices and that can either be advantagous or disadvantagous depending on how you go about it. By selecting a "the worst possible Kakera for Erika", for example, Bern is not engineering a world that has the most disadvantages for Erika. She's deliberately placing Erika in a world filled with loser flags from the start. It's the same as placing Erika in a game where her king is in check at the very beginning. The selecting process is all about finding a world with the least possible amount of loser flags. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-07-15, 17:35	Link #3206
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Forcefully creating a world where there are absolutely certainly is nothing that can get in your way is a strategy Lambdadelta would utilize. From how I understand the Kakera concept Bern just selects worlds that are interesting to her, which depends on what kind of flags have been tripped and tries to get a good result from her situation. She doesn't really engineer anything. In fact it's the opposite of that the worlds she choses were created for the sake of her selecting them. Lambda and Bern are afraid of becoming creator witches according to the TIPS so I don't think they would get too close to that idea either. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-07-15, 21:38	Link #3217
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I can't imagine Kyrie just walked into Krauss's study, to be sure. The VIP bedroom was probably also locked, though it may have just been left alone because nobody really used it. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2010-07-15, 17:16	Link #3203
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	I think the one difference he's getting at is the origin, in that parallel universes should already exist, while he's suggesting that kakera have to be engineered. I'm pretty sure kakera are already there in the first place, though. Any difficulty with getting the best/worst ones is just because it's a kind of needle-in-haystack problem.

2010-07-15, 18:17	Link #3208
Heatth Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Brasil Age: 33	Indeed, according to the fantasy scenes Krauss' study was locked. But, insted of Kyrie break in, wouldn't be simpler to just ask a servant for the Master Key? Even if we assume Krauss did not know were Kyrie would hide, that don't mean Kyrie couldn't ask a servant for a key. The servant wouldn't deny if s/he know about the prank/conspiracy.

2010-07-15, 19:26	Link #3209
delita-umw- Wild Speculator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi	Am I the only one who's horribly bothered by Ange's time travelling/incongruous time line?

2010-07-15, 19:30	Link #3210
Kylon99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space	I think Ange in EP6 was a character that Hachijou trotted out and wrote into her story to give herself more credentials. Didn't she ponder afterwards whether not if she will bother using Ange again or something? It's been 7 months since I played it so I can't quite remember... I'm not sure if Ange in EP3 was 'real' now either or merely yet another character constructed for EP4's sake.

2010-07-15, 19:44	Link #3211
delita-umw- Wild Speculator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi	So this leaves the question what actually can be trusted about any of the scenes with Ange. Did Ange dying at Rokkenjima in ep 4 really happen? Hell, I'm not even sure if I believe Ange is still alive after jumping off the skyscraper anymore.

2010-07-15, 20:16	Link #3212
Kylon99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space	Well, Ange dying in 1998 is according to the ending scroll of EP4. This is the 'Game Record' is it not? The game record seems more concerned with the game itself though, with Battler dying on the first twilight in EP6 even though he didn't. And Kinzo dying in the twilights when... he didn't. So who knows what's up with Ange dying in 1998... 8) Since I'd like to think she and Amakusa fell in love and ran off together rather than him shooting and killing her, I'd explain it as that they pretended that she had 'died' on the island.

2010-07-15, 20:46	Link #3213
delita-umw- Wild Speculator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi	I also wish that were the case Kylon but the only ways I can make sense of the events we are shown are: a) ep 6 with everything about Ange is a farce written by Hachijou and Ange escapes with Amakusa never to be heard from again in ep 4. b) story follows a bizarre non-linear only for Ange timeline scenario that just gives me headaches c) Ange has a Higurashi-like reset of Kakera/time travel after she dies from wounds in ep 4 and suffers from amnesia to be followed by sinister reveal of Okonogi/Amakusa plot which may or may not get derailed by THE POWER OF LOVE Conclusion: god I hate that Ryukishi wrote her back in cause it destroyed my happy little world where Ange survives Rokkenjima regardless of the ending scroll and now has just made her a convoluted mess

2010-07-15, 20:52	Link #3214
Kylon99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space	Wait, did you read the Author Theory posts some of us have been alluding to? There's one more option there that you should be aware of: d. Neither Ange-1998 nor Ange-Miko (Hachijou's Ange) are the real Ange but character representations of the real Ange, known as Ange-Prime. Since they are characters based on Ange-Prime they must in some way conform to what is publicly known about the real Ange... but the author has the ability to mess with her; although if the author goes overboard they can lose credibility. For example if there's a story about Lincoln, they must in some way base his character off the real Lincoln. Stove-pipe hat, beard and all. But perhaps this Lincoln was pulled through time by an alien, time traveler or ESPer before he went to the theatre to be shot. That's the author's ability to weave a tale with an already known and somewhat famous character. If you need links to the Author Theory, here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=3188 (It's still a bit of a mess, I should give a shorter summary... yah.)

2010-07-15, 21:02	Link #3215
delita-umw- Wild Speculator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi	Mmm, good point. I'm familiar with Author Theory, but my brain seems to be of a limited capacity right now. I blame this ungodly hot weather.

2010-07-15, 22:19	Link #3220
winter 923 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Ange is Part of the Story and uses magic on Rokkenjima so if you go with the Author (which i did not read) theory "this was the number of years needed to create this tale." if we allow Battler to be 19 in his time (umiwiki) then shouldn't Ange be also 19 in her time? based on the l theory. Erika has a red bound to BATTLER since the start of EP6. what does that mean? that everything is a flashback? but then shouldn't Beatrice Portrais be there? or a red bound to Beatrice in the end? how is he related with Erika besides a 5min marriage. Also EP2 meta world states that both Shannon and Kanon does have a Hearth but Kanons is weak. While Genji is defect, he compensated them but that does not mean repair/fix. Genji does not have a Heart. So Genji is the one not being counted? now let's start the Genon theroy. i know, i know that won't work.