The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 9]

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The number one thing - the far and away number one thing that bothers me about some of the Endless Eight defenders - is their refusal to admit what to me is obvious....

"Yes, people being displeased with eight episodes of basically the same narrative over and over again, and people being displeased by a halted plot, is understandable. I get how many people don't find this level of repetition to be entertaining in the least, and are hence voicing their displeasure at it. I understand why you don't like the arc concept."

These three sentences above (or something to the same extent) is really all I've ever truly wanted to see the Endless Eight defenders admit to.

We can disagree on how good the DVD sales will be.
We can disagree on whether or not this was a good marketing scheme.
We can disagree on KyoAni/Kadokawa's motivation behind this.

I'm perfectly fine with all of that.

But can't the Endless Eight defenders at least accept and understand how many people don't like seemingly endless repetition in their entertainment? It just blows me away that some people find that so hard to admit to.

Now, as for an Endless Eight critic admitting to something that a defender would like to hear...

Really?

Then here it is:

I understand that this is not to everyone's, or even most people's tastes. I know that my viewpoint of liking E8 is as inexplicable and alien to many people as theirs is to me. I am well aware that my liking of the arc is based on what it is, and I am also aware that other people dislike the arc also based on what it is.

I have never, ever, in all my posting on the topic, insulted or belittled anyone who dislikes E8 solely for that viewpoint, directly or indirectly. All my defenses of E8 have included a disclaimer that I know people may not like it, even if I cannot claim to truly see their point of view. In these cases, I am happy to agree to disagree.

I know this, because I have been very careful in what I say. Any offense caused would be inadvertent, and I am willing to apologize and rephrase for it.

Now. After the following posts all in this thread, up until the rant post I made:

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

Glad it's ended. But don't forget that we have been betrayed and fucked with for the past two months. Don't let your glee get ahead of your reason. We don't even know if we'll see Disappearance for another three years or not.

Originally Posted by Orin GA

For the people saying this episode epic ending "saves this arc" its no wonder Kyoto/Kadokawa feels it can pull this kind of BS for 8 episodes. Haruhi could have teamed up with Zombie Michael Jackson to defeat Sephiroth for all I care. Chocolate covered @!$% is still @!$%

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Not enough payoff short of Haruhi herself coming out of the screen and begging forgiveness might have saved this arc at this point, so... sorry, Charlie, but no cigar from me, at least.

I mean, those 10s. What's wrong with you people.

Originally Posted by Kaiba

QFT, though Haruhi begging might change my mind....
I mean, yay for this stupid arc being over, but this episdoe was just okay, and you guys are treating it like Clannad AS 18. I guess if you've been shown junk for seven straight episodes, a mediocre eigth one can garner ridiculous amounts of praise, and KyoAni wasn't wrong in estimating their fanbases.

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Absolutely amazing how people are giving this a ten. Corporate tools will be corporate tools. I thought this was a bad idea around the third episode and I still do. How in God's name do they expect to sell the DVDs? I can promise you that no USA company is even remotely happy about this as how on Earth would they market this? So sine KyoAni can expect no international sales, all that's left is some pissed off otakus in Japan that had to suffer through this. I fully expect and hope somebody loses lots of money off of this.

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

I only had minute to put in a response before, but I'll give a more extended thought now that I have the time. I haven't seen the episode itself, so I won't say anything about that. I have one thing I want to get through.

My problems with this arc aren't over.

For one, the entire concept was a ploy either to stretch out the series or promote a "true" second season; in either case, money was the driving factor. If the fanbase just goes crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating, then they were right to think we are idiots. Airing the first season out of order was one thing, but Endless Eight, Nice Boat, and three years of intermittent trolling have done nothing to make the show any more interesting. Is Haruhi at all a more interesting show because of a bunch of stunts?

Originally Posted by Jenni

So... well we see an influx of E8 apologists now?

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

Wow. People actually consider buying the DVDs of this. Just wow.

Please, I would like some consideration back.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

That's awfully optimistic from someone who's essentially lost all faith in Kadokawa handling the franchise properly. And I thought you joined the Reformists already Kaisos?

You know the times when you make references that only three people get? This is one of those times.

I'm still not the least bit trusting of that studio, but I'm an optimist at heart. (Deep, deep down.)

I really shouldn't be, because that makes my soul vulnerable to getting torn into half by the Evil Production Committee Devils.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Considering how close to the chest KyoAni's been playing their cards, that wouldn't surprise me if they had something ready for the Fall season.

Exactly. Since they're not going to release any kind of information on what is airing and when UNTIL it actually airs, we can speculate freely.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Tonari no 8-Chan?

Yamakan and Studio Ordet are doing that now, actually.


KyoAni could next do, in order of what I'd like to see:

a) Little Busters
b) Disappearance
c) Something entirely new
d) FMP
c) K-On 2

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

...People don't change. Human behavior has been the same for a long, long time. It's also been 'killing the world' for a long, long time. (Things have never been good.)

People always feel entitled to things, even if it's just their daily bread and water when in a holding cell in a war-torn third-world country. So don't blame parents or the youth of today, please.

I'm sorry... fighting for something you actually need to survive... or something that will improve your quality of life... and whining about what you didn't get to see in an anime are completely different things...

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Besides, their fans buy their DVDs. I think they owe us at least SOMETHING.

If you buy their product, then by all means, go ahead and complain. But you are getting something... those episodes weren't cheap to produce.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Exactly. If you raise a bar high enough, people expect you to keep it there.

In reality, all E8 did for me was simply lower the bar. Which might have been the point, in retrospect.

In retrospect, I don't think they could have met expectations no matter what they did. The fans have rabidly eaten up the source materials and hyped themselves up to the point of no return.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Also, just a question: How old are you?

Beware of Chris Hansen...

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You know the times when you make references that only three people get? This is one of those times.

Given how we jokingly consider the fandom a religion, I thought I'd throw in that little tidbit. I am of course, talking about the Reformation, where Martin Luther and many contemporaries broke away from the 'decadent' Roman Catholic Church. The die-hard 'flag-waving' Haruhi fans (in Jason Miao's words) that still defend KyoAni after this are of course the loyal Catholics (this is an oversimplification, understand, as the events and people involved in the Reformation are far more complex), and the ones that called BS and asked for Kadokawa's Production Committee's heads are the Reformists.

I'd have thrown in Warhammer 40k, as there are similar schisms in the Church of the God-Emperor (Thorians, Amathists, Horusians to name a few), but something historical is better.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

KyoAni could next do, in order of what I'd like to see:

a) Little Busters
b) Disappearance
c) Something entirely new
d) FMP
c) K-On 2

I'd pass on another Key adaptation, or another iteration of K-On if I were KyoAni, as there's still adaptation exposure fatigue from them... Though more so for Western viewers than the anime-watching otaku.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Really?

Then here it is:

I understand that this is not to everyone's, or even most people's tastes. I know that my viewpoint of liking E8 is as inexplicable and alien to many people as theirs is to me. I am well aware that my liking of the arc is based on what it is, and I am also aware that other people dislike the arc also based on what it is.

I have never, ever, in all my posting on the topic, insulted or belittled anyone who dislikes E8 solely for that viewpoint, directly or indirectly. All my defenses of E8 have included a disclaimer that I know people may not like it, even if I cannot claim to truly see their point of view. In these cases, I am happy to agree to disagree.

Thank you.


Anyway, after work today for me...

Triple H voice: "IT's TIME TO PLAY THE (minutia) GAME!!!"


I'm going to finally sit down and watch this sub after work today, and try to write out a long review of this final episode for ol' Endless time's sake.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ac195

I'm sorry... fighting for something you actually need to survive... or something that will improve your quality of life... and whining about what you didn't get to see in an anime are completely different things...

I wasn't trying to explain human behavior, I was trying to explain how all humans behave.

We'll never understand why people act a certain way. But try to understand that regardless of the situation, people are going to feel entitled to things.

Anime fans feel entitled to entertainment. In some ways, they are, since production companies can only function with consumers/fans.

And don't try to separate a physical need from a mental one. They're effectively the same.

Originally Posted by ac195

Beware of Chris Hansen...

You talk like you're in your forties and are becoming rapidly disillusioned with the younger generation, and are longing for how things used to be, when in reality they were just as shitty as they are now.

That's why I was wondering.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Given how we jokingly consider the fandom a religion, I thought I'd throw in that little tidbit. I am of course, talking about the Reformation, where Martin Luther and many contemporaries broke away from the 'decadent' Roman Catholic Church. The die-hard 'flag-waving' Haruhi fans (in Jason Miao's words) that still defend KyoAni after this are of course the loyal Catholics (this is an oversimplification, understand, as the events and people involved in the Reformation are far more complex), and the ones that called BS and asked for Kadokawa's Production Committee's heads are the Reformists.

Ah, thanks. Makes sense.

I'm the equivalent of an Anglican, then, since I'm pretty much between the two.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I'd pass on another Key adaptation, or another iteration of K-On if I were KyoAni, as there's still adaptation exposure fatigue from them... Though more so for Western viewers than the anime-watching otaku.

Little Busters is the least Key of all Key games. Style-wise, it's more like, uh, a typical high-school fanservice show than Clannad. But well-written with decent characters and not stupid.

I agree about K-On though. Too bad it's the best selling anime ever.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm going to finally sit down and watch this sub after work today, and try to write out a long review of this final episode for ol' Endless time's sake.

Why not just condense it into a single sentence instead?

"This was a terrible idea, yet the ending was pretty well-done."

>_>

[Ithekro]

They don't quite have enough material yet for K-On 2 (next Spring maybe). I don't know if they have anything left for Lucky Star 2, but there is an opening there for them to make fun of themselves. Haruhi-chan might have an opening for more, but not for full length episodes.

Key products are possible, but that leaves them with Little Busters, Tomoyo After, and Planetarium (movie/OVA).

Full Metal Panic would get them back into action/mecha. It has certainly been sitting waiting long enough.

More Haruhi might keep the fandom from the rampage that was built up these last eight weeks + 3 years.

Something new might be interesting, but the question for that is what is it?

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And don't try to separate a physical need from a mental one. They're effectively the same.

Key qualifying word in that sentence: effectively.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You talk like you're in your forties and are becoming rapidly disillusioned with the younger generation, and are longing for how things used to be, when in reality they were just as shitty as they are now.

That's why I was wondering.

To be completely honest... I am pretty disillusioned with my own generation. And, yes... we are much more spoiled than our parents... and their parents... and so on and so on...

Also the rate at which anime is being produced is much more rapid. So yes, we are being flooded by more bad anime... and running out of quality source material to adapt from (god forbid studios take it upon themselves to create some thing original and innovative)...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ac195

Key qualifying word in that sentence: effectively

In social sciences, distinctions like that really don't matter much.

What people think is true is true regardless of whether it is true or not. That's how things work.

In the same way, people convince themselves they need something whether they actually do or not. From their viewpoint, they actually do need it. Understand?

So I think it's perfectly alright to say that we were entitled to a better Haruhi than Endless Eight.

Originally Posted by ac195

To be completely honest... I am pretty disillusioned with my own generation. And, yes... we are much more spoiled than our parents... and their parents... and so on and so on...

Spoiled? Yes, perhaps, but only because we have a higher standard of living than our parents did.

And we're not worse people for it. Human nature never changes.

I was spoiled when I was a kid. Now I realize it, and have become rather cynical about it like most other adults. It's not a big deal.

Yeah, I'm sorta trying to say "grow up" here. Ironic, considering.

Originally Posted by ac195

Also the rate at which anime is being produced is much more rapid. So yes, we are being flooded by more bad anime... and running out of quality source material to adapt from (god forbid studios take it upon themselves to create some thing original and innovative)...

My ass. Go look at Bakemonogatari. Or an *gasp* original anime like Canaan. Besides, new and excellent source material is coming out all the time.

Anime has, in general, always been shit. Only the good shows are ever remembered, like someone else here said.

We've simply reached a low point, like in the early 2000s. Don't worry, it'll pick up again. I had been hoping a new Haruhi would do it, but...

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by ac195

Key qualifying word in that sentence: effectively.



To be completely honest... I am pretty disillusioned with my own generation. And, yes... we are much more spoiled than our parents... and their parents... and so on and so on...

Also the rate at which anime is being produced is much more rapid. So yes, we are being flooded by more bad anime... and running out of quality source material to adapt from (god forbid studios take it upon themselves to create some thing original and innovative)...

You're probably looking in the wrong places then. Gainax, Bones, Sunrise, Production I.G, Toei, they are always coming up with their own creations. Granted it does seem like a lot of in house produced shows are mecha nowadays and that's not everybody's thing.

[mitsuganae]

A mostly satisfactory conclusion to the arc, IMHO. The only things that really bothered me were some aspects of the last coffee shop scene, where some of the images that were shown to convey Kyon's effort to arrive at the solution struck me as being rather cheesy (the clenched fist with sparks, for example, which reminded me of the Law of Ueki, amongst other things). An utterly melodramatic passage in the accompanying music that sounds like it was lifted from a banal 19th century piano concerto also grated on me (but maybe that's just the trained musician in me that's speaking). Despite these reservations, I still think that the scene as a whole worked as a tension-builder.

My personal favorite part was the epilogue, which struck the right tone of tranquility and relief. Having the cram session recalled rather than fully acted out was effective as well. I'm glad they included Kyon noting Yuki's absence (and the toll on her). Even having the credits shown during the scene (ala a season/series finale) added to the effect.

And now, if all goes well -- upwards and on...

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

In social sciences, distinctions like that really don't matter much.

What people think is true is true regardless of whether it is true or not. That's how things work.

In the same way, people convince themselves they need something whether they actually do or not. From their viewpoint, they actually do need it. Understand?

So I think it's perfectly alright to say that we were entitled to a better Haruhi than Endless Eight.

I'm sorry, I still can't take someone who used the right to eat and drink to survive as a segway into defending a fans entitlement to entertainment seriously. Addictions can be broken... supporting this kind of mentality is like supporting the actions of a habitual drug abuser...

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I was spoiled when I was a kid. Now I realize it, and have become rather cynical about it like most other adults. It's not a big deal.

Yeah, I'm sorta trying to say "grow up" here. Ironic, considering.

Quite ironic...

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

My ass. Go look at Bakemonogatari. Or an *gasp* original anime like Canaan. Besides, new and excellent source material is coming out all the time.

Anime has, in general, always been shit. Only the good shows are ever remembered, like someone else here said.

We've simply reached a low point, like in the early 2000s. Don't worry, it'll pick up again. I had been hoping a new Haruhi would do it, but...

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ble-that-burst
For those too lazy to click...

"Yasuo Yamaguchi, managing director of The Association of Japanese Animations (AJA), described the anime industry as a "bubble several years ago that burst. The marketplace is on a falling curve due to declining birth rates and the recession." He added that he thinks that the industry is heading from times of surplus toward restructuring. AJA reported that the number of anime television programs rose from 124 in 2000 to a historic high of 306 in 2006. However, that number has since fallen to 288 in 2008. In 2006, a record 60 anime programs premiered in April, but only 30 anime programs were expected to premiere this past April.

The Japan Video Software Association (JVA) reported that domestic sales of Japanese anime releases (on DVD and laserdisc) brought in 97.1 billion yen (about US$982 million) in 2005 and dipped to 95 billion yen (US$960 million) in 2006. In 2007, domestic anime DVD sales fell further to 89.4 billion yen (US$904 million). Even when DVD, Blu-ray Disc, and HD DVD sales are added together, sales of domestic anime releases dropped to 77.9 billion yen (US$787 million) in 2008.

The Japan External Trade Organization (JETRO) estimated that the Japanese anime marketplace in the United States (including character goods) peaked in 2003 at US$4.84 billion. It then fell to US$2.829 billion in 2007. The sales of just anime DVD and videotape releases peaked in the United States in 2002 at US$415 million.

JETRO cites unauthorized net distribution, including fan-subtitled videos on streaming and file-sharing sites, as one reason for the decline in DVD sales. In January, TV Tokyo began streaming popular anime on the Crunchyroll video site to paid subscribers on the same day as their Japanese airings, with free streams available seven days later. Yukio Kawasaki, TV Tokyo's animation business manager, said that the company curbed illegal distribution and responded to the needs of fans who do not want to wait to watch anime. He added that TV Tokyo wants to establish a business model in which the fans worldwide contribute directly.

The last half of the 1990s saw an expansion of late night anime on regular television stations, UHF stations, and satellite television. The Asahi Shimbun paper reports that there were people who considered these television broadcasts as 30-minute commercials for the eventual home video releases. While the newspaper cites Berserk, Maria Watches Over Us, Rozen Maiden, When They Cry - Higurashi and Macross Frontier as hits when late night timeslots became an "anime paradise," anime video sales still fell overall. An unnamed producer told Asahi that videos are not selling "because fans realized that more and more of the releases are the same kinds of titles with bishōjo and mecha elements added just because they are said to sell."

Yamaguchi concludes that Japan is already falling behind China in the number of titles produced every year. He said that Japan should emphasize quality over quantity, such as teaching anime production in national universities and raising better workers, as the way to strengthen Japan's economy."

[Slice of Life]

So it has finally, for the first time been determined exactly how dense a typical male anime protagonist is? It's \rho = 15,532 g/cm^3 ? KyoAni, submit that to Phys. Rev. Letters.

[-Sho-]

Ahah lol 106 perfect

Me i vote 4/10 . Always the same endless episodes except the end .

1+ for the show .

1+ for Kyon who finally said anything . Well its homework lol . I would prefer a date with Haruhi

1+ for Yui , when Kyon said the homework ect ... Koizumi said "Sure" and i laugh when Yui moved her head to say yes . Ahah , in his mind "FINALLY KYON YOU MADE IT DAMN 15532th times 595 years" then in the end she did a party in her home alone XD

1+ for Haruhi , she was blushing and cute in the end .

Well , now i hope it'll be more entertaining for the nexts episodes .

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Please, I would like some consideration back.

My only point in the posts you mention was that those who did not like Endless Eight in the first place should not backpedal. The other is my theory about the motive for this arc. If you liked E8, then the motive is really a moot point, since you got what you were looking for already. However, if you're going to use:

It needn't even be a directed flame, or an explicit taunt. Merely implying that a certain action or viewpoint is a Bad Thing, for any given degree of "Bad", would often be enough to fulfil the "reasonableness" test of whether a rational, reasonable person of common experience will be able to interpret it as an attack. Bigger things have hinged on less (Pearson 2007, p. 184-5)

as a standard, then I don't know how exactly I can express the fact that I didn't like it and I think I have some good reasons without offending you.

(Also, if you're going to use a quote from scholarly article in a post, you should probably set off what's the quote and what's yours. Or at least tell us what journal it's from, since I imagine there was more than one Pearson who wrote a paper in 2007. Otherwise, you might as well be making the citation up since we can only take your word that it's genuine)

[wtfftw]

boring ep thank god its over

[Jintor]

I wish there was a way to track how many fans ACTUALLY quit the series over this versus the amount of fans who SAID they would quit the series and instead remained chained to the animuz.

[Sheba]

My stance changed, I laughed then I stopped laughing when the "joke" stopped being funny then it was basically, "Wake me up when this is over."

[Akka]

Well, I just go back from viewing the infamous ep.
And to be frank, it was quite poor.

The conclusion was quite pathetic (though this was expected), for starter. More than anything, for something that whole KyoAni practiced for such a long time, the moodsetting was badly done : there was not the feeling of despair that had been so beautifully rendered in one of the previous iteration (the second IIRC ?).
It would have been fun if there were only a few iterations, but such a cataclysmic build-up to ends up in such a lame way, is just ridiculous. Please.
And 90 % of the whole ep was exactly the same crap we've been fed up for two monthes, so I fail to see how it is any better.

In other words, the only quality this ep can boast is that it ends the arc. And... that's it. Nothing else is worthy of notice. Even for a regular loop ep it wasn't good.

The string of 10 coming from people is probably just as disheartening than the very fact KyoAni tried this stunt. This ep clearly does NOT deserve anything good. It only appear good because it ends up an incredibly bad arc. That's not "good", that's "relief from bad".

Getting such high ratings because of the commercial stunt shows the depressive conclusion that these stunts basically work. Even a very poor ep seems to look good if the piling of bad before was high enough... :-/

I mean, yay for this stupid arc being over, but this episdoe was just okay, and you guys are treating it like Clannad AS 18. I guess if you've been shown junk for seven straight episodes, a mediocre eigth one can garner ridiculous amounts of praise, and KyoAni wasn't wrong in estimating their fanbases.

Sad, but seems to be true.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

My only point in the posts you mention was that those who did not like Endless Eight in the first place should not backpedal. The other is my theory about the motive for this arc. If you liked E8, then the motive is really a moot point, since you got what you were looking for already.

I never said that anyone who has not changed their mind should do any backpedalling. If one's mind has been changed for whatever reason, by all means state as much, and be prepared to reiterate and explain this change of opinion when challenged, but they are free to act as their new change of opinion would dictate.

As for your posts, my primary problem (as is, indeed, my problem with many of the posts in general) is the framing of the argument.

I consider this acceptable:

I didn't like the arc.

I consider this borderline:

I didn't like the arc, and I don't understand why anyone would.

Here, an addition along the lines of "so we must agree to disagree" would go a long way in defusing potential tension.

Now, let's look at what you posted:

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

For one, the entire concept was a ploy either to stretch out the series or promote a "true" second season; in either case, money was the driving factor. If the fanbase just goes crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating, then they were right to think we are idiots.

My interpretation based on the language used: "The fanbase has gone crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating", and "they were right to think we are idiots." The "If" does not strike me as a supposition, as much as a statement that this is happening right now.

I am challenging your assertion that "the fanbase has gone crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating". What is this beating? What harm, direct or indirect, has been caused by any dislike of E8? And by "harm" I differentiate it from feelings of "distress and disgust" (Kieran, M. (1997) "Harm, Offense, and Media Censorship", in Media Ethics: A Philosophical Approach. New York: Praeger.), which do not fulfil the harm condition. Harm here would have been fulfilled if E8 had resulted in "the fanbase" being unable to function as freely in their life and activities as before (I realize this is a compressed definition). While I cannot discount the possibility that someone, somewhere, has been so affected by E8 that they are indeed so incapacitated, I would put forth the argument that this does not apply to "the fanbase", as a group.

How would changing one's mind about E8 be construed as "crawling back submissively"? Why "crawling", instead of "walking" or "strolling"? For a more neutral word, "proceeding", or "moving"?

As for "they were right to think we are idiots", this has the unspoken assertion that KyoAni has the view of the fanbase as a whole as idiots, and our actions somehow confirm their view. Putting aside the exact definition of "idiot" we are working with, I challenge the original assertion that KyoAni views us as idiots, and would also request elaboration on how changing our minds about E8 does confirm the view of us, the fanbase, as idiots.

My objections have never been about the opposing view, of those dislike E8. I honestly do not mind if you hate E8; what I do mind is if you hate those of us who like E8.

If you do not want to give that impression, then you may wish to pick your words with greater care.

(Yes, I know there's a logical fallacy I can quote here that would shorten all of this, but I can't remember what it is.)

(Also, if you're going to use a quote from scholarly article in a post, you should probably set off what's the quote and what's yours. Or at least tell us what journal it's from, since I imagine there was more than one Pearson who wrote a paper in 2007. Otherwise, you might as well be making the citation up since we can only take your word that it's genuine)

Pearson, M. (2007). The Journalist's Guide To Media Law: dealing with legal and ethical issues. 3rd Ed. New South Wales: Allen and Unwin.

The context is in the definition of defamation, whereby the various varieties of imputation and implication are defined as best as they could be based on current law. The point I was making was that the standard I am using in judging a message's intent is whether a rational, reasonable, moderately intelligent person (ie "the average person") will be able to (or is likely to) interpret the message in a certain way. It's related to the point about the spirit-of-the-law and the letter-of-the-law: if the message is framed in such a way that A Reasonable Person may find it offensive (or defamatory, as the cited work sets as an example), then that message may be considered to be offensive.

In other words, I don't accept the defense of "I didn't insult you personally, so it doesn't count".