[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Y Ddraig Goch]

EP8 manga was intended to be a canon more fleshed out version of the VN version, right? I hear that Ryukishi confirmed that the manga adaption for the series in general is canon.

Other than that, thanks for the chapter. Totally needed a morning read. Featherine is a bloody monster. Lambda literally didn't even know what hit her

[Megumi Kitagawa]

Kind of disappointed that they didn't show the bit where Lambda and Bern created that universe. I always wondered how that would be depicted considering that none of the book cases fell over or anything.

Thank you for the translations though. I've enjoyed reading them.

[GoldenLand]

Thank you for the translations, Haguruma!

Originally Posted by Golden Lily

Also, I finally finished the game, then I checked bits of the previous game and...I'm genuinely disgusted with George. He loved Shannon but he was clearly using his position against her, and he didn't even tried to understand her. And his whole boasting was like 'I'm more mature than you puppies*, so stay quiet and listen to me'.*cousins

I feel the same way about George. The more I hear about his relationship with Shannon, the worse he sounds, really. Some of the scenes read as extra uncomfortable knowing that Sayo knew that George's scenarios could not come true but her being too scared to say anything. I've seen people pointing out that the things he said which did not take her opinions into account probably had some influence on her not telling him the truth.

And his image song is creepy! Seriously, the lyrics here do not make him sound good. (Speaking of which, Judoh doesn't seem to be around any more, but I always liked their George Culprit Analysis...)

And yet, he really did love Shannon, and Ryukishi has stated that George would probably have been fine with the truth. I don't like him, but he probably wasn't a bad guy at heart.

(From the Answer to the Golden Witch interview)

Ryukishi: How scary must it be, to be told that your partner "wants children", when you have a body that cannot make love. That's why Shannon couldn’t speak honestly. Because she thought she would be hated if she were honest. But to be honest, I think if she really told him that, George would be more than happy to modify his plans for the future. But Shannon was far to scared to hear that.

George has a lot of flaws but many of them are ones that he could probably have changed and overcome, if only somebody had told him about them. Eva and Hideyoshi either didn't notice or don't care...There's no sign of him having any genuine close friends, at least not that I remember. And people like Battler and Jessica praised him for being mature without even noticing that he really wasn't at all and was actually being condescending as hell towards them. Shannon was probably well aware of his flaws...but her situation and her own issues meant she was hardly going to do much about them.

I'm sure George could have handled being told about Shannon not being able to have kids and why, but I do wonder what he would think about all the rest of the things that were going on - the history of Kinzo and Beatrices 1 and 2, Natsuhi trying to kill baby Lion, and various things about Shannon's upbringing. I can imagine that he would be furious. Actually, maybe if he was told about that, it would have been the kind of wake-up call that he needed, realising that he'd been selfishly only seeing the romance from his own perspective and having not known that the person he was in love with was suffering such a lot.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

George has a lot of flaws but many of them are ones that he could probably have changed and overcome, if only somebody had told him about them.

It's similar to what he said in the EP8 manga, when everybody faces up to the mistakes they committed in front of Ange. He saw this deep sadness in her eyes, like there was something she wanted to tell him, but he was too scared to actually touch upon it and kept talking dreams. It's actually quite sad that both George and Jessica were so emotionally stunted due to their upbringing that they couldn't face up to their emotions any more than Sayo did.

Btw. in chapter 31 there is also a very beautifully sad scene when the Golden Land finally crumbles (and it is heartbreaking to see it put into pictures)

Spoiler for Picture:

It's really interesting though, seeing who gets to catch who. Shannon gets caught by George and Kanon by Jessica (which is really sad and sweet), Krauss tries to catch Natsuhi but fails, Genji protecting Lion is kinda nice to see, Gohda protecting Kumasawa and Nanjo kind of surprised me. What's really nice and heartbreaking is how Rosa clutches unto Maria and even has Sakutaro hanging on her skirt. And in kind of an ironic twist Belphegor is grasping for Rudolph and Leviathan is grasping for Kyrie...kind of telling about their personalities.
I do hope this little elements were talked out with Ryukishi, since they're too awesome not to be canon.

[Golden Lily]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I've seen people pointing out that the things he said which did not take her opinions into account probably had some influence on her not telling him the truth.

In Ep2, George's said something like "What girl really think matters little to me"...straight into Shannon's face. That's why I can't really stand their 'sweet love potrayal' since it was clear she wanted him to understand her. Meanwhile he was treating this 'I'm furniture' talk as something normal, and that she will stop doing this with time. Saying what was the best for her, without trully understanding her...yeah, as it was said in the game. Their love purpose is just loving, nothing more. Hence it's shallow.

But still, I have to bow in awe at Ryukishi's skill. When I first read this, all I saw was 'sweet, almost boring love', I could never guess it was something much more complex. Ryukishi has this certain ability to hide important truth in a pretty normal scenes, or hiding multiple interpretations in one moment. Finishing the game, allowed me to look at a previous games from completely different perspective, and that's why it's amazing.

edit: oh, so manga isn't canon?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Golden Lily

edit: oh, so manga isn't canon?

Oh, the manga is canon.
It's just always a question if really EVERY page is run by Ryûkishi, or if they just do a general briefing over the script where he tells the artist what kind of information to insert and how, but the way scenes are drawn in smallest details are still left more or less to the artist.
Ryûkishi is the supervising editor for the manga. I think we all assume that he learned his lesson after the first season of Higurashi.

[Mali]

I wish Ryûkishi made TIPS like in Higurashi to add additional scenes which didn't made it in the main story.

If the manga left out and altered many information from the VN so why did Ryûkishi put extras in the manga? Compensation or artistic licence of the artist? This could mean...pachi-slot is also canon?

[Levani]

It didn't alter any information, it gave you additional ones. Ryukishi put extra hints and revelations in the Manga because we have people like ex_ploit still bullshiting about Rosatrice theory, or Jessicatrice or whatever that guy believed in.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by Levani

It didn't alter any information, it gave you additional ones. Ryukishi put extra hints and revelations in the Manga because we have people like ex_ploit still bullshiting about Rosatrice theory, or Jessicatrice or whatever that guy believed in.

I like the way people think about new theories because the game said "don't stop thinking". What's wrong about making theories like Rosatrice? But it would be more enjoyable to read them without arguing against a theory and calling it shitty. But that is called broken fanbase.

[jjblue1]

To be exact the manga was always overlooked by Ryukishi and kept the correct informations, here and there adding extra info, even if occasionally it shortened a scene or postponed a dialogue.
I've did a long comparation of the VN, the manga and the anime for Ep 1, which is the shortest in its manga version and I've made sure it kept all the important details for the episode's solution.
Personally I tend to consider the manga as the 'easy' version of the mystery of Umineko, cutting the unnecessary scenes and giving out more hints than the VN did.

Originally Posted by Mali

I like the way people think about new theories because the game said "don't stop thinking". What's wrong about making theories like Rosatrice? But it would be more enjoyable to read them without arguing against a theory and calling it shitty. But that is called broken fanbase.

I think the problem is there's a bit of misunderstanding here. You've to continue thinking UNTIL you arrive to the RIGHT solution. Once there you can stop.
As long as there weren't the manga and the interviews we couldn't check who arrived to the solution and multiple truths could exist, same as in game 5 where Battler and Erika both managed to propose a theory that could work, although, funny enough, neither theory was right and Erika's theory was considered downright worse and a lot weaker.

However as more info are released we begin a Battler similar to the one between Battler and Beato in Ep 4 Teaparty.

Battler proposes a theory and Beatrice gives out a red truth that deny it so Battler has to propose another theory that will work considering that red truth also.

In the same way we made theories and we've to check if the additional info denies them. If they don't our theories can still work, if they get denied instead we've to make new ones.

With the many additional info released there's still room for theories but it has gotten a lot tighter than it was with only the VN.

For example we've a lot more info about what Ange read in Eva's diary so we can't anymore assume that... let's say, Eva never shot to anyone in the room of the gold. We know she shoot at least one blow. We also know they met Beatrice and she handed them the card. We know Natsuhi was the first to die, then Krauss then Rosa and Hideyoshi. We know at last Eva was shoot too but evidently not fatally.
We know that Eva saw that Jessica and George were dead and that there was dead people in the dinner room as well.

So if you want to construct a theory about what really happened on Rokkenjima you've to keep into consideration those facts.

And the same applies for everything else.

Due to all this a Rosatrice theory usually comes on being denied because it generally violates the new info we were given, most of them in form of red truth.

Of course, if someone manages to make a Rosatrice theory that will circle around the new info it will be more than welcome but so far all the theories I've seen about Rosatrice denies the new info.

It's as if when Battler in Ep 4 has said in blue that the Kinzo people claimed to have seen was a double and Beato had countered in red that no one could mistake Kinzo Ushiromiya by sight he had told her, sorry, you gave this red too late, I reject it claiming it's all deception and insist my theory still stand.

So, really, new theories are cool but only as long as they don't deny things according to their own convenience.

[Levani]

Rosatrice looks like this, no offense.
"Oh, there is an answer in EP7. I don't like this answer."
*ryukishi further confirms the answer in interviews*
"It's all bullshit, I don't believe it."
*ryukishi adds more info in Manga*
"It's not canon, I'm not listening."

It looks really desperate, that's why I am this hostile.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Levani

Rosatrice looks like this, no offense.
"Oh, there is an answer in EP7. I don't like this answer."
*ryukishi further confirms the answer in interviews*
"It's all bullshit, I don't believe it."
*ryukishi adds more info in Manga*
"It's not canon, I'm not listening."

It looks really desperate, that's why I am this hostile.

Well, more or less, it's like this, although, to be honest, there's to say many hasn't read the interviews or the manga but has only heard about them. The manga is still ongoing and with each chapter we get new info but as many don't know Haguruma is translating the manga new info don't reach them.

The fact that the anime royally messed up Umineko might encourage people to think the manga also isn't a worth media so they don't really try to pay it attention.

So... yes, they're in denial but sometimes they might not realize this.

[Mali]

What's the commonly accepted (culprit)-solution in the community? Yasu became Beatrice and created 2 personas known as Shannon and Kanon?

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I think the problem is there's a bit of misunderstanding here. You've to continue thinking UNTIL you arrive to the RIGHT solution. Once there you can stop.

When is the reader (or me) supposed to know the right solution? Every new episode bombard the reader with new informations. It would be unfair to the reader. I think this is exactly what makes the VNso appealing because it gave the reader various ways of solving the problem.

Example: What if Yasu is actually Beatrice and Kanon exist as a separate person who pretends as Shannon (not persona-wise) while the real Shannon is dead? I didn't check it but maybe it's not as wrong as it looks. Well, Lion could appear in front of Kanon and Shannon...unless it's a magic scene.

[Levani]

Lion appeared before Kanon and Shannon because Bernkastel had two kinds of Kakera smashed into one. Will was noticing contradictions when people remembered stuff they couldn't possibly have remembered and didn't know about stuff they should have known. Shannon doesn't know who Lion is because of this same reason. Bernkastel just wanted to lay out all the material out there so that the truth can be easily found. She doesn't care if the world itself is inconsistent.

When is the reader (or me) supposed to know the right solution? Every new episode bombard the reader with new informations. It would be unfair to the reader. I think this is exactly what makes the VNso appealing because it gave the reader various ways of solving the problem.

You should be able to figure out the truth by the time EP6 ends. EP7 reveals it further, very clearly. If you missed this then... no offense, but you weren't paying as much attention as the VN wanted you to.

What's the commonly accepted (culprit)-solution in the community? Yasu became Beatrice and created 2 personas known as Shannon and Kanon?

There is no commonly accepted solution, there is one, single, true solution. And that is the fact that Sayo Yasuda is the culprit.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

What's the commonly accepted (culprit)-solution in the community? Yasu became Beatrice and created 2 personas known as Shannon and Kanon?

Nope. Let's divide this in parts so it'll be easier.

Spoiler for Here it's the solution as confirmed by sources:

Part 1

Yasuda Sayo, who believed to be an orphan, was carried on Rokkenjima and given the blessed name of Shannon (in early episodes it's said all the servants working for the Ushiromiya are given new blessed names). The other servants though nicknamed her Yasu, nick whom she hated but with whom she identified herself.
To her she was Yasu, a clumsy servant with no friend.
As she was lonely she created an immaginary friend, a role model that would keep her company and that would be the person she hoped to become and named it 'Shannon'.
At this point basically Yasuda Sayo is nicknamed Yasu by the servants and called Shannon by the Ushiromiya so Yasuda Sayo, Yasu and Shannon are all the same person but in her mind she pretend Yasu and Shannon are like two separate beings. She's Yasu and Shannon is another person who confort and support her.
As things go on and she's bullied and keep being clumsy and losing things she creates another immaginary friend, the witch Beatrice whom she blames for the disappearance of her stuffs.
So, although we still have again only one person, in Sayo's imaginary mind setting, she's not lonely as she has two friends, Shannon, the servant and Beatrice, the witch from the legend.

Part 2

Things go on and not only she learns not to lose her stuffs or let herself be tricked so easily but the girls bullying her are sent away and she becomes the one who tricks others causing objects to disappear.
In short her 'Yasu' self, the one she viewed as clumsy and unable to do things, disappear. She stops identifying herself as such and upgrades her own self image to Shannon, even through she is a Shannon that's not as perfect as the one in her fantasy.
When she's playing pranks through, she sees herself as Beatrice, the witch.
Mind you, she's not suffering of multiple personality, to her this is all a game, a fantasy. Let's remember she was very young and that kids can have imaginary friends or pretend they're someone else.
Anyway she doesn't feel like getting rid of the imaginary Beatrice she just strips her of that name and keep her as an imaginary witch friend later called Gaap.

So now we have Sayo who finally identifies herself as Shannon but that, when playing pranks likes to pretend she's Beatrice and that is left with only 1 imaginary friend, Gaap.

Moving on.

Part 3

Due to depression and problems with her body who wasn't developing properly but kept on looking like the one of a boy she began to feel uneasy in her own skin. She wondered if life would be simpler if she really were a boy and so, with the help of Genji and Kumasawa, she begins to play out the role of Kanon.
In short she dresses up like a boy and feels free to be rude with everyone, getting rid of the frustration she felt. As there are no other servant boys on the island the other servants girls show interest in Kanon and don't bully him despite him keeping away from them.
This roleplay game is however just a way to cope with her own feelings and not a permanent switching as she also continue being Shannon on her daily life and pretending to be Beatrice when she plays pranks.
Her roaster of imaginary friends however expands due to her friendship with Maria.

So now we've Yasuda Sayo, in her past nicknamed Yasu, called by the Ushiromiya Shannon, occasionally ropleplaying as Kanon, pretending to be Beatrice when playing prank or playing with Maria and with an assorted set of imaginary friends.

Part 4

Due to the trauma of being told the truth about herself (she's Lion, Kinzo incest baby and therefore won't be able to marry the only people who loved her and whom she loved, Battler and George and she got an injury who makes her unable to have children when she desperately wanted a family) she sinks into desperation.
In her mind she views Beatrice as the one that voices out her self hate and Kanon as the one that voices out her lack of hopes.
She'd like to do something but she's so desperate she can't find at anything nor find the courage to face the situation she's in.
Ultimately however she would like to quit roleplaying Kanon and Beatrice, likely hoping that in this way her self hate and lack of hope would disappear, marry George and live as Shannon.
However as she's told that Battler is coming back she realizes her resolve to marry George isn't as strong as she still favour Battler over George.
Not knowing what to do, disgusted at her own body and feelings, living in fear of being rejected if the truth about herself were to come to light, disgusted by the hypocrisy around her (Natsuhi talks of honour but she tossed her off a cliff and hid Kinzo's death, Krauss prides himself as a smart investor but he's actually losing money at every turn and so on for everyone around her) she decides to commit Shinjū... which losely, very losely, is Japanese group suicide.

While the thing might look as nonsense to a western, the whole thing was pretty common in Japan so it makes sense TO HER.

However, as many committing suicide, she'd like to be saved so she plans to perform it in such a way that if certain conditions will take place she'll be saved.

In short she wanted to organize her Shinjū so that it would look like a mystery and if someone were to solve it she'll stop.

Due to this she bribes accomplices and writes various plans. We don't know which plan she chose but she put the discharged plans into bottles and tossed them into the sea as well because if they were found prior to tragedy stricking again she could be stopped.

When the fateful day comes from Eva's diary we know that the adults solved the epitaph. This was, in Sayo's mind, one of the conditions for her to stop her Shinjū so she technically quit here.
The adults however begin to argue and as their argument grows heated they grab guns. Eva accidentally kills Natsuhi.

We know that Krauss gets killed next, likely because, enraged for the death of his life, he wanted to kill Eva.

From this point on things are less clear but very likely Kyrie killed Rosa and Hideyoshi and shot Eva. When Eva woke up she found the others dead and blamed Kyrie and Rudolf then likely killed them both.

To sum it up

The real murderers in the real Rokkenjima were the adults. The games however are based on the plot Sayo wrote and that had her as the true culprit.

So the culprit for the various episodes, which are nothing else but forgeries, is Sayo, who here and there worked with the help of accomplices. The murders for Rokkenjima Prime, which is the real world, are Eva, Rudolf and Kyrie and possibly Hideyoshi (it's unsure if Krauss was killed by Eva or it was Hideyoshi who killed him to protect Eva). It's unsure if someone else got a chance to kill someone but as of now it looks unlikely. It's strongly implied that if Sayo wasn't killed by Kyrie or Rudolf she killed/tried to kill herself. Battler survived but lost his own memory and became Tohya, so his own Battler self ended up being killed as well. Eva survived some more years and took charge of Ange. Short after Eva's death in 1998 Ange also disappeared/died.

I've cut parts here and there but if you go through the VN you can see hints to the solution and if you read the manga and the interviews you can see it's confirmed.

Originally Posted by Mali

When is the reader (or me) supposed to know the right solution? Every new episode bombard the reader with new informations. It would be unfair to the reader. I think this is exactly what makes the VNso appealing because it gave the reader various ways of solving the problem.

Example: What if Yasu is actually Beatrice and Kanon exist as a separate person who pretends as Shannon (not persona-wise) while the real Shannon is dead? I didn't check it but maybe it's not as wrong as it looks. Well, Lion could appear in front of Kanon and Shannon...unless it's a magic scene.

With just the VN you could make a good guess about the solution but you couldn't have certain so yes, with just the VN you couldn't know for sure the solution but could elaborate 1 or more that would fit more or less well with the info you had.

However the additional info given worked to cut down all the solutions that wasn't the right ones. It's no more additional informations that could be interpreted. It's 'this is what happened' or 'this doesn't happen'.

For example the manga denied the possibility of a Battler culprit theory in ep 5 by having Beato claiming in red that in none of the games prior to Bern's one Battler was the culprit, not just in the first 4.

In short while with just the VN it was possible to make a Battler culprit theory for Ep 5, once the manga gave that red all the Battler culprit theories for Ep 5 are crushed down.

As you can see this isn't additional info that pushes you to make more theories but it's additional info that helps you to get rid of the wrong theories.

I hope this clears up things.

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by Golden Lily

That rose had any significant purpose other than showing Maria's naming tendencies based on appearance?

Also, I finally finished the game, then I checked bits of the previous game and...I'm genuinely disgusted with George. He loved Shannon but he was clearly using his position against her, and he didn't even tried to understand her. And his whole boasting was like 'I'm more mature than you puppies*, so stay quiet and listen to me'.

*cousins

I answered this question before, but my ideas are still being developed. I totally agree with Auratwilight on his symbolic meaning of the Rose in relation to Rosa.

There is a scene somewhere in the beginning of Episode 7 where Will and Lion are outside the Chapel and the flower goes outside the Kakera and starts to wilt. My original interpretation is that as soon as the catbox closes, the rose disappears. My newer interpretation is to do with the fact that the rose is no longer 'observed' (as in Schrodinger's cat) and therefore its state is dead and alive at the same time. When the characters next come to observe it, it turns out the rose is dead.

My thoughts on this are still a bit wishy-washy, so if it sounds confused, it was because I am still confused :S

[Mali]

Thank you JJ. Did not Will denied Berns game? There are many aspects in the vn that did not specify like Battlers half Brother, the usage of names in general and personal pronouns.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Thank you JJ.

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by Mali

Did not Will denied Berns game? There are many aspects in the vn that did not specify like Battlers half Brother, the usage of names in general and personal pronouns.

I fear I've confused you. With Bern's game I was meaning the one in Ep 8, the one she uses to challenge Battler and that had Battler, Rudolf and Kyrie as murderers. The one we see in Ep 7 has only Kyrie and Rudolf as murderers and is not considered a game. Part of it matches with the one in Eva's diary so part of it is the truth, what remains however isn't in the book of the one truth and, unless there are more books of the one truth it's likely speculation.

Well, if you mean Asumu's child, the one that Battler replaced, the manga confirmed that in Ange's time is a well known fact that Asumu's child died and Rudolf paid a doctor to replace it with the one of his mistress. That's why in Ep 4 Ange suspects what Beato wants to do when she starts questioning Battler about his mother. Because everyone in Ange's time knew and Ange was even bullied over it.

I think that with the usage of names you refer to the fact that you can count Shannon and Kanon as separate people yet they've one body, yes?

In truth this doesn't get explained because the whole dynamic of the thing it's tied to the Japanese language. As I'm definitely not the best person to explain how Japanese language work I recommend you to read this which explain how the body count worked in Japanese (there are also awesome posts on this thread but I can't find them right now).

I've to admit I've no idea what you mean with personal pronouns so I can't really help you here.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

Off-topic, but in EP6 when Chick Beatrice is questioning why she loves Battler, she refers to the person who created her and gave her the goal of being loved back by Battler as oka-sama. Was this Sayo shaping Beatrice (from Clair/prototype to Beato) to be Battler's ideal woman and passing on her love for him to him or the original Beatrice passing on her traits to Chick Beato (I know it's the same person technically, but wanted to know what medium she used)? Ugh, my interpretation ability is meh :/

I hope the manga will elaborate a tad bit more on the Fukuin House reunion end. I know Ryukishi told us it's up to us to decide the end, so to say but here's to hoping the manga establishes vanilla end and not Tohya passing out for like a second

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

Off-topic, but in EP6 when Chick Beatrice is questioning why she loves Battler, she refers to the person who created her and gave her the goal of being loved back by Battler as oka-sama. Was this Sayo shaping Beatrice (from Clair/prototype to Beato) to be Battler's ideal woman and passing on her love for him to him or the original Beatrice passing on her traits to Chick Beato (I know it's the same person technically, but wanted to know what medium she used)? Ugh, my interpretation ability is meh :/

I think she used both. We've hints to how her creator is Sayo who made that PieceBeatrice a fantasy character born to love Battler in place of Sayo.

However this new Beatrice is also something Battler recreated using the old Beatrice as a model in hope to reincarnate her or something along the line.

So in a way she's born out of the first Beato as well.

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

I hope the manga will elaborate a tad bit more on the Fukuin House reunion end. I know Ryukishi told us it's up to us to decide the end, so to say but here's to hoping the manga establishes vanilla end and not Tohya passing out for like a second

Which is the vanilla end? Though I too would like for the manga to elaborate more the ending.