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Old 2009-10-10, 10:59   Link #341
Zetsubo
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Originally Posted by Shay View Post
Nooo, I don't like this twist!

Surely if a ten tailed beast was sealed then divided and spread out throughout the land they'd all have one tail each? Where did the extra like 26 tails come from???
Look at it from a fractional perspective and not as a whole number issue.

The one tail beast would be 1/26th of the power. (0.0384)

The Sanbi would be 3/26th (0.1153)

Kiriabi would be 8/26th (0.3076)

Kyubi would be 9/26th of the power of the 10 tails (0.3461 )

Add the beasts up and you would have 26/26 or 1

So we can see it as each Biju is a fraction of the original chakra and beast and not a whole number.

Mathematically speaking... that means even the Kyubis power at 9/26th or 0.3461 or 34.61% is a drop in the bucket.

Just think.... the Kyubi is only 34 percent as powerful as the Ten Tails... no wonder Madara is going to these lengths.... he would become a god !

Man... I am glad I paid attention in Math class during elementary school :P
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:12   Link #342
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Another possibility is: Nagato didn't tell to Madara the last sentences that were written on the stone.
Or, Nagato never once saw the tablet. It is the Kages that assume that Madara used Nagato's Rinnegan to read the tablet, but Madara never directly says that Nagato read the tablet. In fact, since Madara is supposedly using Nagato, it would make mores sense for Madara to limit Nagato's knowledge by not showing him the tablet.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It seems that controlling a demon is his only jutsu right now...
Except, he uses an Earth Jutsu during the Deidara fight. Specifically, he uses Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu to hide several of Deidara's clay bombs underground during the Sasuke fight.

So, Madara can use jutsus, he just doesn't (for whatever reason (maybe, as you say, he is too weak?)).

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
My assumption is that Madara's body is gone and the body we see is an eternal susaano which functions as an artifical body for Madara. And because Madara has to maintain this jutsu for the whole time he is low on chakra, so he cannot perform jutsu that requires a lot of chakra from him, which means he is unable to fight like a real ninja. One part of his body should be the original, the eyes for sure and part of the head i guess (assuming that under the mask there is a damaged head, the remains of Madara's battle with Hashirama). The reason why the original body part is needed was explained when we saw Sasori, Sasori needed a little part of his former body in the puppet. Madara's puppet body part is the eternal susano. Also the EMS eye is obviously needed by Madara, that is his essence.
Definetly an interesting idea. This would at least account for the fact that he can turn tangible or intangible at will. But, it doesn't account for the fact that he feared Amaterasu, or at least did not simply let his de-powered Susano'o take care of it, instead vanishing the flame to his dimensional/Skimming world. Even an underpowered Susano'o would be able to block Amataerasu...

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Anyway considering the 10 tails's eye I'm starting to wonder if both the Sharingan and Rinnengan (and perhaps all Doujutsu) aren't in fact power from the original demon.
Even more than that, it becomes possible that all bloodline abilities stem from the Jyuubi (that is, if you wish to analyze the brothers as being the root of all bloodlines ("The Body" creating certain types of bloodlines, and "The Eye" creating the others)).

That being said, wasn't this one of the original theories concerning the Sharingan? I forget now, but it was something to do with a Tengu raping a Byakugan user, or something demonic influencing a Byakugan, turning it into a Sharingan. While the specifics are very different, the idea of a demon creating the Sharingan has been around in one form or another for years, maybe almost a decade (the earliest I can remember are from 2003/4, but I am sure someone could have speculated upon this even earlier).

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Similarly the cursed fate of the Uchiha and their chakra even more sinister than the Kyubi wouldn't only be about the bloodfeud started between the two sons of Rikudou but the demonic influence of their eye power. Each new level of the Sharingan (MS, EMS, whatever next) being closer to the original evil power of the Jubi.
I hope this is the case, and not that the Jyuubi is actually influencing the Sharingan users...
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:12   Link #343
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Oh guys, please, read all of my posts and stop quoting this one bull****-line of mine, okay?

"Oh wait, that guys wrong. I gotta correct him, although 251231235 people already did, and hes posted a more accurate reply anyway."

Gettin sick of it...
Oh, sorry, I didn't notice that had already happened. I just wanted to help you out. I find it always interesting to get to know the truth.

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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I just thought of another possible theory of how Madara is a mere shell of his former self, Hashirama might have used the technique that Minato and Hiruzen used just without the major drawback of dying after he used the technique or a different technique that drains the chakra of the person permanately. Whilst he was dragging Madara's soul/chakra out because of Madara's chakra being the strongest of the Uchiha clan he could resist it a little bit but Hashirama was still able to take a large portion of his chakra.

Madara already weakened from the battle, collapsed and bleeding out, Hashirama sentimental about what had happened didnt want to give the finishing blow and left (just like how Sasuke didnt want to give Naruto the finishing blow). Sure that Madara was dead or so weakened he would cause no threat he went back to govern Konoha and never heard Madara's name again. However Madara was still alive thanks to his strong chakra (which is why he said: 'It is only due to my strong chakra that I still cling to life (I can't remember the chapter)), disappeared and became Mizukage as they saw him as untouchable due to his space-time jutsu.
Well, I thought there was a picture where something was pierced through Madara's head, so I think he lost an eye. Maybe most of his body (it's armored) was crushed by trees. Still we don't know how he's able to move in such an efficient way. He might not be the guy who could control Kyuubi like a pet anymore or set the world on fire with Amaterasu, but he's still able to use asounding techniques.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:24   Link #344
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Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Look at it from a fractional perspective and not as a whole number issue.

The one tail beast would be 1/26th of the power. (0.0384)

The Sanbi would be 3/26th (0.1153)

Kiriabi would be 8/26th (0.3076)

Kyubi would be 9/26th of the power of the 10 tails (0.3461 )

Add the beasts up and you would have 26/26 or 1

So we can see it as each Biju is a fraction of the original chakra and beast and not a whole number.

Mathematically speaking... that means even the Kyubis power at 9/26th or 0.3461 or 34.61% is a drop in the bucket.

Just think.... the Kyubi is only 34 percent as powerful as the Ten Tails... no wonder Madara is going to these lengths.... he would become a god !

Man... I am glad I paid attention in Math class during elementary school :P
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Originally Posted by Shay View Post
Nooo, I don't like this twist!

Surely if a ten tailed beast was sealed then divided and spread out throughout the land they'd all have one tail each? Where did the extra like 26 tails come from???

Kyuubi doesn't seem as awesome anymore. The 4th sealing Kyuubi now seems insignificant!!

I don't like this twist at all!

I wonder if Naruto alreadys knows all this from his convo with Itach?
Just wanted to point out that it wouldn't be an extra 26 tails...it'd be an extra 35 (assuming we're subtracting the 10 tails for the Jyuubi).

9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=45
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:30   Link #345
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I wonder if Samehada can harm Madara as it can deal damage to all forms of chakra.

Being that Madara seems to phase into intangibility, which is simply another state or frequency of energy, technically samehada should be able to harm him.

It would be interesting if there was a back-story there. Such as in order to compete for the title of 4th mizukage, Madara's opponent created it to be able to combat Madara's intangibility powers but lost because he couldn't compete with Madara's teleportation.

I know it won't work out that way but so far its the only thing in the anime that would seem to be effective against Madara. Well, that and maybe the genjutsu that Jiraya used against Pain that utilized sound instead of light.

Every other single offensive jutsu that we've seen so far has attacked substance I think, with the exception of those two.

Another thought is asking the question as to how will Madara control each bijuu? Will he unleash them one by one? And once they finish wreaking sufficient havoc will he then re-seal them for later use? How will all that work?

I'm just waiting to find out if Naruto is a descendant of the Senju, and if so how will that play into his defeat of Madara. It would be easy for him to be a Senju though. All it would take would be for Hashirama's heir to have been a female. Once she married and took on her husband's name she would no longer be known as a Senju.

I hope to see some other Konoha-nin shine before the curtain falls. It would really suck for everyone else to be spectators at the grand finale and not players, even if minor ones, on the board.

PS I never left. I just don't spend any real time here reading every post.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:37   Link #346
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Haven't read all of the previous replies yet , but I will do so later on. After reading the chapter everything didn't come off so bad. I still don't like the revealing of the whole plan , but whatever. I did enjoy the story of the Great Sage trapping the 10 tailed demon as it was told like a myth. I think Madara declaring war would have been bad a** if he didn't add the last part about "The 4th Ninja war starts now". I am not to keen on the whole trying the universal peace angle as Madara never gave any hint that he cared for peace. It came from no where, even when the Uchiha and the Senju clan became one for peace he was against it. Every step of his life has been a failure , full of betrayal and mishappenings , why would he want peace over revenge ?
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:50   Link #347
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
THIS CHAPTER WAS FREAKING balling.

The only thing i dislike is madara explaining everything like the typical bad guy before his defeat.

MR johnny you dutch like me About madara i think madara doenst even have a physical body except an eye. Im not sure i havent seen him take off his mask and he wear even gloves it would also explain people going just through him when they punch him. I might be wring if he showed his body parts as in flesh please enlighten me

Meng Uchiha is badass they have crazy secrets

I lolled at the fact taht only sharingan Mangekyou Sharingan and rinnegan are able to decode the secret tablet byukugan is old skool .(hunter you might as well remove the byukugan vs sharingan thread its official now

The last cool part of this chapter is the moon eye depicted in 1 of the panels.

I notices that sharingan and the tomoe or the 3 dots they sharingan users have is on 1 circle. Rinnegan has 3 circles. The moons eye i see in one of the panels has 3 dots on each circle. I think this is an interesting point. and might clarify the power madara is seeking


DAMN YOU KIDS IM MADARA B**** I DECLARE 4TH NINJA WARSSSSS nOW MENG
Well yeah that's basically what i said before . I think only one eye...one organ survived... and all his will...his mind...his soul survived in it. His body is dead. And thus a shell. It would also make ALOT more sense why he is able to teleport his body parts.

You simply can't go through someone while his other body parts are present. Let's say someone fully punches your head and/or your heart. And that body part is instantly sent away for just a moment. You simply can't survive that unless...unless it's dead already. Unlike Sasori who used the body of a puppet...Madara is most definetly using his own (dead) body which is the shell he and Itachi were talking about.

Also yes... he showed his body parts..a part of his head was seen when he took off his mask. There was also one time when he blocked Suigetsu's sword attack. He also was able to carry Sasuke's body so his body is real. It isnt a ghost/projection/illusion like Bunshin no jutsu.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:25   Link #348
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Madara's eye ability makes me wonder if its similar to Kakashi's own eye ability.

Also, are we assuming that one bijuu is stronger than another because of whole Nartuo growing tails = stronger factor?
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:04   Link #349
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Originally Posted by TwilightHack View Post
Madara's eye ability makes me wonder if its similar to Kakashi's own eye ability.

Also, are we assuming that one bijuu is stronger than another because of whole Nartuo growing tails = stronger factor?
That and 8 tails Menacing Ball was around the 6 tailed Naruto's menacing ball power or less also 9 tails is the smartest of all bijuu and actually is stated to be the strongest of all the bijuu.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:18   Link #350
Zetsubo
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Originally Posted by TwilightHack View Post
Madara's eye ability makes me wonder if its similar to Kakashi's own eye ability.

Also, are we assuming that one bijuu is stronger than another because of whole Nartuo growing tails = stronger factor?
No we are going off :

Cultural and religious references in Japan.

In the native Japanese religion of Shinto, as well as the imported religion of Buddhism there are elements of symbolism and mythology where numbers are important and carry levels and strengths.

Kishi uses these elements to build his story.

For example... The character PAIN is made up of six paths.

This is plot element built around the real life Buddhist doctrine of the number of paths to Nirvana (heaven).

There are six paths to Nirvana.

Spoiler for if you wish:



Also... Kishi keeps the symbolism numerology and myth strong with the number of tails each beast has.

In Japanese mythology multiple-head or tailed animals are often very powerful and their power increases with the number of heads or tails.

For example Eight is a significant very number which correlates to the legend of Susanoo who conquered the eight head and eight tail dragon Orochi for a girl he wanted to marry and to assist her parents who were connected to the Goddess Ameterasu.

Eight is also the number or parts the Buddhist Trigram

Meanwhile their are 9 levels of hell in Buddhist doctrine.

The kyubi hates humans and is a creature of fire pain and suffering.

9 is a bad luck number in Japan as well as it is it sounds like the word for pain.

The Buddhist legend of the nine tailed fox is the worst possible luck that you can get into... etc.

There are also positive references for the number 9... I just do not rememeber them off hand.

Anyway because of the number nine.... Naruto is both blessed and cursed and he has to work hard to overcome the curse part by following one of the 6 paths. That is why he had to meet and beat pain.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:24   Link #351
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I think we've established I suck at math...
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Old 2009-10-10, 15:03   Link #352
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Oh god, this is all turning out predictable and lame. The event/plot set up was too obvious. bah...
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Old 2009-10-10, 16:41   Link #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightHack View Post
Madara's eye ability makes me wonder if its similar to Kakashi's own eye ability.

Also, are we assuming that one bijuu is stronger than another because of whole Nartuo growing tails = stronger factor?
Why should it be similar? Kakashi's eye is definitely from Obito...
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Old 2009-10-10, 17:23   Link #354
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Or, Nagato never once saw the tablet. It is the Kages that assume that Madara used Nagato's Rinnegan to read the tablet, but Madara never directly says that Nagato read the tablet. In fact, since Madara is supposedly using Nagato, it would make mores sense for Madara to limit Nagato's knowledge by not showing him the tablet.
I'm assuming that because:
1, why wouldn't Madara show it to Nagato when he knows that only the rinnegan can fully decode the great secret? It wouldn't make sense. And as i mentioned in the post you replied to why would Madara wait about 50 years to begin collecting the demons? It seems he began collecting the demons around the time when he should have met the young Nagato who just lost his best friend and was filled with hatred and pain.
2, How did Nagato know about the creation of the moon when it's supposed to be secret.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Except, he uses an Earth Jutsu during the Deidara fight. Specifically, he uses Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu to hide several of Deidara's clay bombs underground during the Sasuke fight.
Don't take things too literally, what i meant is that Madara is unable to use kage level jutsu to fight. Some low level jutsu that he uses while fooling around the world is simply not relevant. Madara surely has gathered a level of knowledge that Orochimaru always wanted, he could probably perform more jutsu then Kakashi knows, but in his current state he is unable to do so.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
So, Madara can use jutsus, he just doesn't (for whatever reason (maybe, as you say, he is too weak?)).
I think there's just no other good answer. He must be low on chakra or something else that is needed to perform multiple high level jutsu that is needed to fight the kages that Sasuke was fighting.

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Definetly an interesting idea. This would at least account for the fact that he can turn tangible or intangible at will. But, it doesn't account for the fact that he feared Amaterasu, or at least did not simply let his de-powered Susano'o take care of it, instead vanishing the flame to his dimensional/Skimming world. Even an underpowered Susano'o would be able to block Amataerasu...
I think the susano gets broken and so it also does burn. It's created by the mind of the MS user, a materialization of a monster/body. Raikage broke the bones of it to hit Sasuke, also it seems the mizukage was melting it. So i think it can burn. However since it's just a creation of the mind it can be restored to 100% power if the user has the chakra and stamina for it. We see Sasuke ran out of chakra against the mizukage and susano brake down, but when Zetsu gave him chakra his susano did grow an arm and broke the walls with it. I think Madara's miraculous comeback after being burnt is because Madara simply restored his susano-body. But there's more to susano then what we could see, for example Itachi survived a full hit from Kirin by seemingly only a few susano bones, it would not make sense that a bunch of bones can save someone from one of nature's strongest forces.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Even more than that, it becomes possible that all bloodline abilities stem from the Jyuubi (that is, if you wish to analyze the brothers as being the root of all bloodlines ("The Body" creating certain types of bloodlines, and "The Eye" creating the others)).
I don't like that idea, bloodlines have always existed in the world, they just randomly pop out of nowhere, when the genetic material is combined in some special way a new form of power is born. That's simple genetics, as it was explained in part one of the manga, and i think it's a more natural and logical explanation. For example Nagato was born randomly in a random place, his parents being average people, the genetical explanation is the most logical for that. Otherwise Nagato should be secretly some direct descendant of the rikudo sennin.
On the other hand if the rikudo sennin didn't have those eyes and gained them by becoming the host of the 10 tails that would mean that Naruto would be able to grow a rinnegan eye for himself if the 10 tailed was sealed in him
I don't believe that the rikudo sennin could capture the 10 tails if he didn't have a bloodline, Naruto's storyline is too much about bloodlines and genetic abilities instead of hard working and genius. But it would be nice if it turns out that genius and hard work can create everything (every jutsu that exists), in that case Naruto should become stronger than anyone with the rinnegan or sharingan. The child Nagato could easily use all 5 elements while for Naruto now there's only wind, he doesn't have the bloodline and that's the only difference. I would be happy if Naruto learns to use all 5 elements, that would be a nice.

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That being said, wasn't this one of the original theories concerning the Sharingan? I forget now, but it was something to do with a Tengu raping a Byakugan user, or something demonic influencing a Byakugan, turning it into a Sharingan. While the specifics are very different, the idea of a demon creating the Sharingan has been around in one form or another for years, maybe almost a decade (the earliest I can remember are from 2003/4, but I am sure someone could have speculated upon this even earlier).
I read it too, that was one of the best fanfictions i have seen
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Old 2009-10-10, 17:50   Link #355
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What about Sharingan being related to Byakugan? It was said that it was believed that Sharingan was enveloped from Byakugan. This theory has been put aside and now the reality looks totally different. I wonder if Kishimoto made up his mind. To me it seems as if bloodlines had more meaning back in the days. Today, Bloodlines seem less interesting, everything was born from something divine and demonic.
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:08   Link #356
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how come every bad guy has to describe his evil plan so in detail to the public?? Could he gain anything by leaking that much info?? His plan is...ok but does he really need to yell it out to the good guys?
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:13   Link #357
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He really hoped they would go along with it?
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:19   Link #358
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I don't know about you guys, but I am at a lost at the moment about what's going to happen next in the manga. Search for Killer Bee? Naruto fights Danzo? Why the heck is Kisame still in the picture, could he switch sides maybe by giving important Akatsuki information?

The manga has so many directions it could take right now.
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:30   Link #359
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
1, why wouldn't Madara show it to Nagato when he knows that only the rinnegan can fully decode the great secret? It wouldn't make sense. And as i mentioned in the post you replied to why would Madara wait about 50 years to begin collecting the demons? It seems he began collecting the demons around the time when he should have met the young Nagato who just lost his best friend and was filled with hatred and pain.
Why would he tell Nagato? Madara is a man who likes to hide his face behind a mask (seemingly since his defeat) for unknown reasons, and he likes to pretend, at times, to be someone else (Tobi). He is seeped in mystery and is all about the control of information (whether about hmself or others). So, why would he willingly let someone else have partial control over him, even if the control is just whatever info was found on the rest of the tablet? I find it more likely that Madara could never fully trust Nagato, but even if he could trust Nagato I strongly doubt that Madara would have ever had the chance to have shown Nagato the tablet (that being said, since the tablet resides in Konoha, and was kept there even after the Uchiha massacre, I really do not see how Madara and Nagato would have ever found the tme to wander on down to Konoha and look in the Uchiha's celler to read a long lost tablet).

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
2, How did Nagato know about the creation of the moon when it's supposed to be secret.
1. It could be in the mythology of Rikudou Sennin (we don't know exactly what is listed in the stories of the ol'Sage of 6 Paths ).

2. Madara could have told him.

3. Nagato could have figured it out himself after using Chibaku Tenin (or the various other techniques he already knew pre-Madara).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Don't take things too literally, what i meant is that Madara is unable to use kage level jutsu to fight. Some low level jutsu that he uses while fooling around the world is simply not relevant. Madara surely has gathered a level of knowledge that Orochimaru always wanted, he could probably perform more jutsu then Kakashi knows, but in his current state he is unable to do so.
Madara not using high level jutsus is proof of nothing. We know that he can use elemental jutsus, and we know he can use non-bloodline related jutsus. The level of chakra needed for the jutsus is ultimately a pereipheral point after we learn that Madara can use regual ninjutsu and is not defined solely by his bloodline alone.

In other words, there is no reason to assume that Madara has ever had to use any high level jutsus in the current arcs, especially since he never actually fights anyone or anything.

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I think the susano gets broken and so it also does burn. It's created by the mind of the MS user, a materialization of a monster/body. Raikage broke the bones of it to hit Sasuke, also it seems the mizukage was melting it. So i think it can burn. However since it's just a creation of the mind it can be restored to 100% power if the user has the chakra and stamina for it. We see Sasuke ran out of chakra against the mizukage and susano brake down, but when Zetsu gave him chakra his susano did grow an arm and broke the walls with it. I think Madara's miraculous comeback after being burnt is because Madara simply restored his susano-body. But there's more to susano then what we could see, for example Itachi survived a full hit from Kirin by seemingly only a few susano bones, it would not make sense that a bunch of bones can save someone from one of nature's strongest forces.
Hmm, seems too complicated. It makes more sense that he simply sucked up the Amaterasu into his eye.

As for having a Susano'o body, again that seems plausible. I prefer the simple answer that what we see is simply Madara's body, but if it is something else, I do think Susano'o is a valid speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I don't like that idea, bloodlines have always existed in the world, they just randomly pop out of nowhere, when the genetic material is combined in some special way a new form of power is born. That's simple genetics, as it was explained in part one of the manga, and i think it's a more natural and logical explanation. For example Nagato was born randomly in a random place, his parents being average people, the genetical explanation is the most logical for that. Otherwise Nagato should be secretly some direct descendant of the rikudo sennin.
On the other hand if the rikudo sennin didn't have those eyes and gained them by becoming the host of the 10 tails that would mean that Naruto would be able to grow a rinnegan eye for himself if the 10 tailed was sealed in him .
I do like the idea that everything comes from Rikudou Sennin/Kyuubi because that gives a clear and concise explanation to the "beginning" of everything shinobi in the Narutoverse. As for Nagato possibly being descended from Rikudou, so what? The activation of the Rinnegan being random (i.e. it requires certain circumstances) matters far more than if Nagato is actually related (distantly) to the Sage of 6 Paths...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I don't believe that the rikudo sennin could capture the 10 tails if he didn't have a bloodline...
Considering that the Rinnegan and the Sharingan seem to come from the Jyuubi (or at least the possibility is extraordnarily high), unless the Sage could also use Mokuton (or some unknown bloodline), it appears that he was just really really strong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I read it too, that was one of the best fanfictions i have seen
Are you talking about this one:
Interesting Uchiha origin theory .

@Killer Bee: You might be interested in the thread I have linked here (or at least the website link that is found within the link I have provided). It brings up many of your dimensional ideas...

Last edited by james0246; 2009-10-10 at 21:33.
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:31   Link #360
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I think that Raikage will enforce the search for his brother. He already hinted that.
Naruto learned from his father that he needs to control the Kyuubi's power, that this is the power needed to encounter someone as strong as Uchiha Madara.
Danzou will remain the leader of Konoha if the other Kages don't blame him for running away. It's well possible that Naruto earns Raikage's trust next – I think he's already in favour of the Wave, the Sand and the Rain of course.
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