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Old 2014-08-11, 13:04   Link #221
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
how about intelligence and experience? we never see badidi get owned by some lackey character in DBZ in the middle of the story. he's weak, but he's wiley (like BZ) so having some random scene that makes no sense in which he gets slaughtered for seemingly no reason takes a lot of wind out of his sails as far as a final villain goes
He doesn't have to be some kind of evil mastermind. Maybe he's disgusting and talentless, the opposite of great heroes even in the sense that he is a weak coward who's also stupid. The worst of humanity or something like that. After all maybe Zetsu is not the child of Kaguya as he thinks or maybe just wants to think. Maybe in the battle between Kaguya and her sons when they were about to win then the god-tree / 10-tails / whatever took over and it created Zetsu as it did see humans, and it did see humans in the worst way possible since Kaguya stole the fruit and now there's a battle in the family, there's betrayal, and a lot more of bad human character/behavior. So it created Zetsu to be good at being a bad human, that is one who uses others, betrays other, is weak, seeks power and control, etc. If the god tree was some god of nature (something based on shinto religion) and it despised humans then it might have created Zetsu to be the Satan/snake that feeds on human weakness and it's goal is to bring down humanity using their own bad side. And there we got both Annunaki007's biblical perspective and some shinto religion stuff combined to have Zetsu's origin story. And of course if Zetsu is such a character he would lie about being Kaguya's son if he knew the truth, but it could also be possible that ignorance and stupidity are also his traits and he simply doesn't know who and what he is, well the latter would be too philosophical for a shonen manga

Well to tell the truth i would be quite disappointed if Kaguya and Zetsu would be people like Madara, Tobito or Nagato. These two should be very different in more than one way. If the final confrontation would be between the consciousness of the god tree and Naruto that would be great, they would make peace and end the root cause of the conflict. Of course in that case people would complain that former evil characters like Kaguya and Madara would get their happy ending in some way, just like Obito did. What i mean that the final outcome shouldn't be decided by simply who wins a battle between Kaguya&Zetsu vs Naruto&Sasuke, but instead it should be the God Tree making a second judgment over humanity where based on Naruto's actions it would stop fighting humanity and give it's blessing on Naruto and other humans.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2014-08-11 at 13:23.
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Old 2014-08-11, 13:04   Link #222
GDB
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Define "lackey character". Piccolo judo chops him in half, and by that point Piccolo wasn't really any more useful than Krillin was, which is to say basically worthless as a fighter.
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Old 2014-08-11, 17:01   Link #223
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
He doesn't have to be some kind of evil mastermind. Maybe he's disgusting and talentless, the opposite of great heroes even in the sense that he is a weak coward who's also stupid. The worst of humanity or something like that.
i'm not saying it couldnt happen that BZ is a jackass or that he could get beaten by a character people can barely remember, because that is exactly what happened. my point is that it diminishes BZ's image to the readers to have him fail miserably on a random pointless mission that he should have been smarter about based on the fact that he's been alive since nearly the start of ninjas. that scene makes sense if he's just a manifestation of madara's will, but as a devil-type and final boss villain it makes no sense

well, this story has been so crazy lately, it wouldn't be much of a surprise if there were 2 BZs all along and the one that chojuro killed was simply madara's will that he glommed onto WZ

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If the final confrontation would be between the consciousness of the god tree and Naruto that would be great, they would make peace and end the root cause of the conflict.


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it should be the God Tree making a second judgment over humanity where based on Naruto's actions it would stop fighting humanity and give it's blessing on Naruto and other humans.
i think that's highly likely. it fits with the whole devil/BZ comparison we're talking about as well

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Define "lackey character". Piccolo judo chops him in half, and by that point Piccolo wasn't really any more useful than Krillin was, which is to say basically worthless as a fighter.
first off, babidi was killed by Buu, right? but even still: Piccolo>>>Chojuro in terms of story and importance
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Old 2014-08-11, 19:55   Link #224
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He was killed by Buu, but still chopped in half by Piccolo. Buu revived him/put him back together before later killing him himself.
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Old 2014-08-15, 19:02   Link #225
Quzor
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i'm not saying it couldnt happen that BZ is a jackass or that he could get beaten by a character people can barely remember, because that is exactly what happened. my point is that it diminishes BZ's image to the readers to have him fail miserably on a random pointless mission that he should have been smarter about based on the fact that he's been alive since nearly the start of ninjas. that scene makes sense if he's just a manifestation of madara's will, but as a devil-type and final boss villain it makes no sense
Not necessarily. It's just a misdirect because, at that point in the story, we weren't supposed to know that Zetsu was some ultimate bad guy. He was still just an Akatsuki member like the rest of them. There's been plenty of that in this story already and, though it hasn't always played out in the same way, it has achieved the same purpose.

Edit: So he was not "just an Akatsuki member" at this point, my mistake. Still, he was cut down by Chojuro, and then the story flipped directly to the main battlefield, as Madara had just been resurrected by Kabuto. In Chapter 657, Madara tells him to go to where Obito is and wait for orders, and he seeps into the ground and away from Chojuro.

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well, this story has been so crazy lately, it wouldn't be much of a surprise if there were 2 BZs all along and the one that chojuro killed was simply madara's will that he glommed onto WZ
I'm not going to say that this is definitely not true but, for me, this would be the ultimate cop-out of the entire series up to this point. If anything, Kishi has shown that he's not above using whatever means necessary to get his characters where they need to be, doing what they need to be doing.
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Last edited by Quzor; 2014-08-15 at 19:20.
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Old 2014-08-16, 14:00   Link #226
itachi-san314
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Not necessarily. It's just a misdirect because, at that point in the story, we weren't supposed to know that Zetsu was some ultimate bad guy.
of course. it's obviously a misdirect in hindsight. my point is that BZ should know who he is. if he can't beat chojuro then why even bother trying to attack the mizukage? again, it works as an akatsuki lackey, but not as the final villain who knows more than anyone. just my opinion i guess



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I'm not going to say that this is definitely not true but, for me, this would be the ultimate cop-out of the entire series up to this point. If anything, Kishi has shown that he's not above using whatever means necessary to get his characters where they need to be, doing what they need to be doing.
well i dont know about the ultimate cop-out lol but yea i was just joking. although the real joke is that anything is possible in the story. quite literally at this point
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Old 2014-08-16, 15:53   Link #227
Quzor
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of course. it's obviously a misdirect in hindsight. my point is that BZ should know who he is. if he can't beat chojuro then why even bother trying to attack the mizukage? again, it works as an akatsuki lackey, but not as the final villain who knows more than anyone. just my opinion i guess
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at?

BZ losing to such a minor character is the point of the misdirect. The kages, and the readers, believe he is dead, when he's really just lying in wait. If you use a strong character for that, it trivializes whatever BZ's final encounter may be, because whoever he's fighting would have to A.) Be so ludicrously strong that he should have been able to beat everyone besides BZ on his own, or B.) Use some sort of plot-no-jutsu to win, both of which leave the reader asking why that character wouldn't have simply done that in the first place.

An example of outcome A (mixed with a little B) would be Gai v. Kisame. For outcome B, see Sasuke v. Deidara.
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Old 2014-08-16, 18:45   Link #228
itachi-san314
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Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at?

BZ losing to such a minor character is the point of the misdirect. The kages, and the readers, believe he is dead, when he's really just lying in wait.
first off, he could have been lying in wait, literally anywhere and had the same effect for madara.

second, with edo-madara and obito fighting the alliance, i doubt much relief was had over thinking BZ was dead. it wouldn't/didn't change the mindset of the alliance at all. as for fooling the readers, i dont see much of a point there either. my thoughts after this scene were just that BZ sucked. the only part i dont get is why it happened in the first place
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Old 2014-08-17, 15:09   Link #229
Quzor
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first off, he could have been lying in wait, literally anywhere and had the same effect for madara.
But at the time we, as readers, don't know that. The plan was initially for BZ to capture the five daimyo and return them to Tobi/Obito/Madara to be used as ransom in exchange for Naruto and Bee. Once real Madara was resurrected, that plan became pointless, and BZ started answering to real Madara, who told him to return to where Obito was and wait for further orders.

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second, with edo-madara and obito fighting the alliance, i doubt much relief was had over thinking BZ was dead. it wouldn't/didn't change the mindset of the alliance at all.
But again, we don't know that at the time. The alliance see a spy, and assume he will make a move to provide information to Madara regarding their movement and location. By killing him, they prevent that from happening. It also makes for a nice surprise for the alliance, when BZ returns to the battlefield, attempting to take Obito's Rinnegan, since they think he's dead. Kakashi even says as much at the time.

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as for fooling the readers, i dont see much of a point there either. my thoughts after this scene were just that BZ sucked. the only part i dont get is why it happened in the first place
Because that was the original plan, as I stated above. Plus, it was almost three years ago that this happened. Now, I'm not one to tell you what your thoughts are or were about anything, but I find it hard to believe that that first thought that crossed your mind when you initially read that scene was "Wow, BZ sucks."

It's better for Kishi to be doing things with his characters that make less sense later, than doing nothing with them until the time comes for them to do something. BZ has been involved since VotE, like you mentioned earlier. If he's just left out until this point, readers are left wondering what the hell he's been doing, where he's been, and why he hasn't done anything sooner.
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Old 2014-08-17, 19:11   Link #230
itachi-san314
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it seems like we are of 2 different camps. one likes BZ being beaten by chojuro and one doesn't

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Because that was the original plan, as I stated above. Plus, it was almost three years ago that this happened. Now, I'm not one to tell you what your thoughts are or were about anything, but I find it hard to believe that that first thought that crossed your mind when you initially read that scene was "Wow, BZ sucks."
i did. BZ has been around sine the part 1 VotE fight and was an 'akatsuki member' which meant quite a lot. for him to get beaten by chojuro was most unimpressive

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It's better for Kishi to be doing things with his characters that make less sense later, than doing nothing with them until the time comes for them to do something. BZ has been involved since VotE, like you mentioned earlier. If he's just left out until this point, readers are left wondering what the hell he's been doing, where he's been, and why he hasn't done anything sooner.
it's best for kishi to not make people do out of character things. BZ is the spider in the shadows who pulls all the villains' strings. he's not a front line attack dog. if he was going to take out the mizukage and capture the daimyo, i would buy it if he pulled some kind of weird spore attack or a mind control thing or anything that wasn't brute force and utilized his intellect, knowledge and passive abilities
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Old 2014-08-17, 19:59   Link #231
Quzor
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it seems like we are of 2 different camps. one likes BZ being beaten by chojuro and one doesn't
Meh, I don't like or dislike it with any particular vigor. It just is what it is. Fair point to you.


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it's best for kishi to not make people do out of character things. BZ is the spider in the shadows who pulls all the villains' strings. he's not a front line attack dog. if he was going to take out the mizukage and capture the daimyo, i would buy it if he pulled some kind of weird spore attack or a mind control thing or anything that wasn't brute force and utilized his intellect, knowledge and passive abilities
Does BZ actually have any confirmed abilities beyond recon/intel? I know WZ pulled out the spore attack against the Mizukage, but I can't recall BZ ever doing anything besides slinking around watching people do stuff. Hell, even with Kaguya, he's just hiding in her sleeve. I'm not convinced yet that he's really worth anything, beyond information gathering, on his own.
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Old 2014-08-17, 21:22   Link #232
itachi-san314
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Does BZ actually have any confirmed abilities beyond recon/intel? I know WZ pulled out the spore attack against the Mizukage, but I can't recall BZ ever doing anything besides slinking around watching people do stuff. Hell, even with Kaguya, he's just hiding in her sleeve. I'm not convinced yet that he's really worth anything, beyond information gathering, on his own.
interestingly enough that's been my point from the beginning, and we've come full circle
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Old 2014-08-20, 07:47   Link #233
dniv
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interestingly enough that's been my point from the beginning, and we've come full circle
Well, apparently he's talented enough to
Spoiler:
While it is true that stealth and lack of brute force is good for information gathering, there are indeed other things that one can do with that--like what I put in the spoiler... So he may have done more things of this nature...
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