Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Really? they bombed the Ragnan Ruins because to their knowledge at that time the ruins were a very big advantage to Windermere and Ragna was the last planet they needed to conquer to have the whole cluster, Xaos voiced their concern and Lady M bought them more time, but Xaos failed to keep Windermere fleet out of Ragna, NUNS activated the bomb only when the Sigur Valens was literally on top of the ruins, I don't know about you but I'd call that a "last resort".

Yeah, the evacuation was badly handled, and NUNS came on very short notice and being very bossy, they are assholes yes, but Xenophobes? come on.

Actually that was Lady M's fault. Lady M delayed the bombing operation which delayed the evacuation. Because the Ragnan and other locals were expecting Chaos to win this on Al Shahal.

Guess what they didn't.

Reaction weapons do not leave any radiation in their wake. Which makes them clean weapons. Plus Kaname's concern that it'll affect the energy shaft... She's a combat idol not a Fold physicist. Scientists which Malang was consulting with gave him the info on what would happen.

Scientists that were saying it'll Fold out the real ruins from Fold Space. As Mikumo has shown destroying those ruins aren't really going to affect the planet badly.

Detonating the Reaction bomb was the last resort as the Sigur Valens was already in orbit descending to the ruins.

Malang told Arad to get all the pilots off the battlefield so they won't get blown too. But Chaos and Ragna NUNS still kept fighting on the notion they can stop the Sigur Valens. The Elysion hasn't even arrived yet.

Just as the Sigur Valens was above the ruin Malang blew it up but Gramia noticed with his Rune ordering barrier below up. That didn't work so Malang retreated gong with Plan B with Fold Jammers as they got the relevant data to jam the Wnd Singer's song from the ruins.

The Elysion does arrive saving Barrette city. Instead of opting to continue the battle as they've damaged the Sigur Valens they chose to join the evacuation. Leaving the entire cluster vulnerable to mind control.

You are talking about the same organization that goes around the galaxy uplifting other civilizations, sharing technology, knowledge and their culture, it would be so easy for the NUNS to instead of doing that, just conquer said civilizations, they have the power and the numbers to do so, Windermere was in the middle age when NUNS arrived, Voldor and Ragna were a bit more advanced but nothing near the level of NUNS. If they were really xenophobes/racists do you think they would have left those 3 planets I mentioned govern themselves like they do? or let people of those races be in positions of power or join the NUNS as soldiers?

Now, remind me, which race started to invade other people's planets (that did nothing to them), mind-controling them not caring about collateral damage, and then when they were already under their control experimented on their population with no regard to what could happen to them?

But yeah, NUNS are totally evil and Xenophobes and racist, right?

Goodness another ignorant one.

From Macross Chronicle.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...elineTF02A.php

Related Matter: The Galaxy Treaty
The Galaxy Treaty was drawn up after the conclusion of the First Interstellar War, and such clauses as the prohibition of invading planets where intelligent life exists were noted in the treaty, which was concluded between the Emigrant Planets and Emigrant Fleets. Also, as disregarding an SOS from another fleet was a violation of of the Galactic Treaty, it has strong aspects of humanity (including extraterrestrial life) and respect for life.

Caption: If the Vajra are intelligent life, than the invasion of the Vajra Homeworld was a violation of the treaty.

Caption: Disregarding the SOS signal was also a violation. The agreement on the aspect of humanity seems to have been performed irregardless of it being peace time or war time

Lets list what happened on worlds contacted by Terran and Zentradi coalition.

Planet Zola has an autonomous government with its own militia Galaxy Patrol with them enforcing interstellar law in the region as they are associates or member of the UNG. No UN Spacy forces on the planet. In Macross Dynamite 7 Zola Galaxy Patrol arrested poachers of a species protected by interstellar law and also stopped the operation of a Black Market that accommodates them and sells arms illegally from VFs to Reaction weapons.

Ragna there is a joint government between Ragnans, Terrans and Zetrandi. Emigrants didn't invade but proposed a treaty that integrated Ragnans to the interstellar community. Guess what Ragnans accepted and are happy about it.

Voldor there wasn't a colony contingent but signed a treaty to be full members of the UNG/NUNG. Their NUNS are mostly Voldorian. Bases and interstellar trade benefits them economically.

Windermere 4 was found by accident by Megaroad 4 when they were navigating a Fold Fault. Megaroad 4 didn't emigrate to Windermere but made contact and treaties with them. A mutual defense pact treaty between Windermere government and the UNG/NUNG was made that allowed UN Forces/NUNS on the planet while giving technological uplift to Windermereans that allowed them to develop their own military forces. Windermere was still a sovereign planet despite whining their skies aren't their own.

Why do the Windermereans feel this way? Pride is the reason. Their Culture Shock so to speak is that they can't process that while they are the strongest physically of the Miclone races and have Runes as extrasensory organs they are the shortest lived race. This led to xenophobia that became outright racism in Macross Delta.

Gramia felt that with Fold Quartz Windermere would be an economic and military power house while keeping secret a Protoculture battleship in his backyard. Then Gallia 4 blew up by Grace with a Dimension Eater and Macross Galaxy tried to take over the galaxy using Vajra to coerce all of the NUN into their hivemind.

As a reaction the NUNG parliament amended its existing treaties to heavily regulate Fold Quartz as it is the main in ingredient in Dimension Eaters and Mini-Dimension Eaters. Meanwhile NUNS were investigating the function of the ruins concluding it was made for mind control. Wright Immelman discovers that Gramia has a Protoculture battleship central to its function and has been letting Epsilon Foundation, a very shady corporation, study it. Note Macross Galaxy was an entirely corporate fleet.

Gramia negotiated with the NUNG to remove Fold Quartz regulations on his planet. Gallia 4 a year still fresh on NUN's mind said no. Offended Gramia recalled all the Aerial Knights in mutual defense operations against the Lost Zentradi , which they were whining about as they want to only protect Windermere by the way, declaring an independence war on the NUN.

Eight months into the war the Brisingr Alliance NUNS make the conclusion Gramia having possession of the Protoculture battleship is too dangerous for the galaxy. Gramia is ambitious enough to use it without care to the freewill of the peoples of the cluster and galaxy. Guess what they were right in the end. Previous experience with Protoculture weapons indicate Reaction weapons do squat so they opted for an MDE. Bringing an MDE bomb on a planet is illegal as per the new laws however local NUNS officials deemed it was warranted as the Protoculture sealed the mind control system and who knows if it has a surprise booby trap program or AI. They send Wright Immelman on a black op mission but he ignored orders as he can't have collateral damage on his conscience avoiding the target area. Local NUNS officials initiate the bomb to cover their tracks and retreat from Windermere.

Windermere won the war but it a Pyrrhic one as they didn't get what they wanted in forcing the NUN to remove regulations on Fold Quartz, millions dead on Carlisle, a pariah in the eyes of everybody and trade sanctions.

In just a couple of years in cooperation with Epsilon Foundation Windermere spread Var incidents with Exdel apples grown on Fold Quartz rich soil. Coupled with ruin waters Fold Bacteria grow exponentially in their hosts causing Var.

Upon perfecting their mind control system experimenting on Al Shahal with Heinz they declare war weeks later.

Windermere's intent? Invading the entire cluster then the entire galaxy.

So who are the real invaders?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

I cannot quite comment on Wind right now since I am not done with the show, but knowing the NUN as well as I do, xenophobia is one thing they cannot be attributed to.

Lets forget about all the uplifting for a moment, but remember what the NUN is consisted of. This is an organization that is composed by two core races, the Zentradi and Humanity, with the former (pacified) outnumbering the latter by a minimum of 9:1. The lingua franca of the NUN is also not any of the human languages, but Zentran. Intermarriages are very common between the two peoples and many live in co-existence within the many thousands of colonial ships.

The NUN can be accused of a lot of things, but Xenophobia is not one of them. In fact, being Xenophobic is rather counterproductive for the NUN, and its something they simply cannot afford to be.

- Tak

Tak consider that those who were men of honor are maybe dead and the organization changed their leaders, their inner character changes as well. Think about The Dark Knight series where Wayne Enterprise changed their CEO and Wayne himself was left without power. Enterprises change as well as military units and the roots of xenophobia had its chance to spread out within the organization. Although not every unit or division may become xenophobe some have.

At this point. There is no real evidence that windermere ruins and the wreck were a threat and even the pictures wright did does not show aggressive or destructive sign. It was an image humans made to find a reason to bomb it

[Tak]

I would like to point out that two events, detailed in VFX-2 & 30, where one of them changed the UN to NUN. The reason behind this was due to elements of the UNS (Racrance) sought to create a strong, centralized military power that saw themselves as the true inheritors of Protoculture. This was seen as utterly counterproductive, while the events of Macross 30 was more or less on the same lines. Both were put-down.

Sounds familiar to the ideas of a certain Wind-dude?

Not to mention Delta took place only shortly after.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

I would like to point out that two events, detailed in VFX-2 & 30, where one of them changed the UN to NUN. The reason behind this is because elements of the UNS sought to create a strong UN-first centralized military power that saw themselves as the true inheritors of Protoculture. This was seen as utterly counterproductive, while the events of Macross 30 was more or less on the same lines. Both were put-down.

Sounds familiar?

Dude, stop, you're going to embarass them...

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Tak consider that those who were men of honor are maybe dead and the organization changed their leaders, their inner character changes as well. Think about The Dark Knight series where Wayne Enterprise changed their CEO and Wayne himself was left without power. Enterprises change as well as military units and the roots of xenophobia had its chance to spread out within the organization. Although not every unit or division may become xenophobe some have.

At this point. There is no real evidence that windermere ruins and the wreck were a threat and even the pictures wright did does not show aggressive or destructive sign. It was an image humans made to find a reason to bomb it

You are grasping straws you know that?

In the two years after on SDF Macross Trad city Terran residents stood up for their Zentradi citizens leaving the Miclone chamber in the town. Reasoning the choice shouldn't be taken away unilaterally by the military and important to reconstruction. Despite the threat of Quamzin and his rebels. Earth only banned giant Zentradi on Earth's surface after the Zentradi revolt of the Second Defensive Battle of Macross City in 2030. Space colonies, the moon and the rest of the Solar system they can be giant. In 2031 tens of thousands of Anti-Earth Zentradi left Earth in solo emigration ships never to be heard from again. Earth let them leave even with the possibility they can bring back other Zentradi on Earth's doorstep.

In Macross Plus there was an Earth activist movement that protested against OPFOR training exercises using Zentradi mecha reasoning it is detrimental to Zentradi integration. Yes Macross has its own SJWs which probably blamed on Kaifun starting it.

During Guld's inquest the General asked if his Zentradi heritage has anything to do with the accident with Isamu. He has a valid point as some Zentradi are having problems with violent impulses. Guld was popping pills for his condition but the BDI interface read his subconscious thought of harming Isamu. In Macross 30 Zentradi on Ouroboros resorted to implants to control their emotions. Macross 7 fleet 7 years after the Protodevlin incident resorted to Tactical Sound Units to quell Zentradi criminal activity uncovering the so called 7th Code that can not only calm berserk Zentradi but Terrans as well.

In Macross 7 the titular fleet has a 10% Zentradi population with a Zentradi mayor. Macross 5 fleet was a Pro-Earth Zentradi emigration fleet sponsored by General Galaxy. They even invited Macross 7 to visit them, then the Protodevlin happened.

In Macross Dynamite 7 even Terran criminals aren't racists as their boss is a Zolan.

In Macross Frontier President Glass cursed the Zentradi when the hostage situation on Gallia 4 happened. Leon Mishima Earth's chaperon to Frontier fleet reminded Glass that wasn't politically correct. While Sheryl in the TV series said she hasn't seen Zentradi on Macross Galaxy she isn't aware of Brera Stern, though Brera is a slave to the Galaxy Executive Board like everyone else with an implant. Guld Works is said to have staff from the old YF-21 development team so there is a possibility of Zentradi. General Galaxy a corporation that is known to employ Zentradi and specialize on Zentradi technology sponsored the Macross Galaxy Fleet like the Macross 5 Fleet. Sheryl's parents were assassinated by the corporate cabal as they politically opposed mandatory cybernetic implantation.

Macross 29 in Macross Musiculture has a Terran-Zentradi population that includes Loli and Vanessa's granddaughter. An android even joined the Miss Macross contest. The youth movement Neo-Zentran was a political opposition movement in elections to Two-Nine city's mayor as the Two-Nine government's pacifist stance has caused economic recession.

While some people suspected Freyja being a spy due to bad timing that passed away as Freyja proved herself as selfless and heroic.

There will be bad blood due to Windermere's actions certainly but as Voldor's leader showed Windermereans are short lived let this generation die out then we can talk whoever is next.

This means as long as Heinz and the current generation of Aerial Knights and government officials are alive they wont be trusted. As long as they are warlike and have the Sigur Valens in their possession.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Like I said before, I don't blame everyone in NUNS. However, as an organization, they need to take responsibility. A streak of success can be be blotted by one failure, and since no one else is going to get rid of their corruption, they'll have to do it themselves. The fact remains is they (someone in their organization) made a terrible mistake, covered it up, and we'll never know who, but the others shouldn't stand idly by and let it happen. Silence is an action.
That percentage seems rather high but no matter.

And how exactly do you know how many people in NUNS know what actually happened on Windermere, given that you yourself acknowledge that there was a cover-up? Again the decentralized nature of NUNS makes it quite possible that it never went higher up than their regional government.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And how exactly do you know how many people in NUNS know what actually happened on Windermere, given that you yourself acknowledge that there was a cover-up? Again the decentralized nature of NUNS makes it quite possible that it never went higher up than their regional government.

I don't, the anime never stated who knew about the cover up, only that NUNS was responsible. For all we know, it could have been the whole organization. This is me giving them the benefit of doubt. What I do know is that without the power of NUNS - all the research that went into developing the dimensional weapon, the research that went into seeing whether or not dimensional weapons were actually capable of destroying the ruins, the authority of whomever made the call - the cover up would not have been possible. Basically, whoever is responsible for the cover up abused the power of NUNS.
I'm only giving suggestions on what NUNS should do to avoid these kinds of situations. If the actual incident was known by a few individuals, then there needs to be less secrecy and more in-department investigations.

[magnuskn]

Well, not disagreeing with that. Better investigations to not repeat mistakes are a good thing.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Tak

I would like to point out that two events, detailed in VFX-2 & 30, where one of them changed the UN to NUN. The reason behind this was due to elements of the UNS (Racrance) sought to create a strong, centralized military power that saw themselves as the true inheritors of Protoculture. This was seen as utterly counterproductive, while the events of Macross 30 was more or less on the same lines. Both were put-down.

Sounds familiar to the ideas of a certain Wind-dude?

Not to mention Delta took place only shortly after.

- Tak

Just a clarification on Lactence and the NUNG.

Before 2050 the UN Government decentralized as Earth can't govern from afar. As Max, Milia and Isamu's records can attest Anti-UN movements are a thing particularly with some Zentradi. There is also the fact in a span of less than a decade Earth itself was endangered. Sharon Apple incident of 2040 and Lost Zentradi attempted invasion with a Mobile Fortress fixed by their Anti-Earth Zentradi allies in 2047. The Anti-Earth Zentradi were rebels that escaped Earth during the 2030 Macross City uprising. The earliest mention of the NUN was in 2048 with the 117th Research Fleet with NUNS in 2048.

Lactence a UN Spacy pro-centralization faction in a scheme with Critical Path Corporation, whose CEO was a Macross Galaxy cabal member according to MF novelization, attempted to create an Earth hegemony by selling weapons to Anti-UN Zentradi group Black Rainbow, a group that believed colonies should be free of Earth's government influence, destabilizing frontier planets while weakening their defenses making Earth's secret Macross 13 Fleet VF-X Ravens attack their fellow UN Spacy on deceptive orders. On planet Vulcan they were ordered to attack and destroy its laser defense grid as supposedly it was taken over by terrorists that was a lie. The UN Spacy communications base the Magic Mirror comm system on planet Endebald was destroyed as supposedly it was taken over by rebels. While labeling Vindirance a UN Spacy opposition group to Lactence as terrorists in media as they've been targeting Lactence operations. Yes it is essentially a UN Spacy civil war.

Wilbur Garland gave Aegis Focker the reason for his coup plot. There are threats out there like Lost Zentradi and Protodevlin and humanity needs to be united.

Gilliam Angreat former VF-X Ravens leader that defected to Vindirance learning the truth argued to Aegis Focker that they weren't fighting external threats like Zentradi or Protodevlin but their own people. UN Spacy getting shot by weapons sold to terrorists for testing and by their own side in a bid for power.

Vindirance mostly won that conflict with decentralization kept as status quo . However some planets like Kesshobu it became a civil war between Lactence supporting former UN Spacy and the New UN Spacy.

In Macross the Ride Fasces a Zentradi chapter of Lactence though pro-centralization has a more fanatic stance. Naresuan is Zentradi Space War 1 veteran much like Richard Bilrer believes that the Children of the Protoculture should be united. He has a following not only with Zentradi but with Terrans and Zolans as well. Decentralization to him heresy as believes Protoculture would've wanted their children united into something like the Stellar Republic. The UNG and Earth to him is the succession state to the Protoculture Stellar Republic. Also Naresuan believes Zentradi should all go miclone.

As for Col. Ushio Todo and Havamal. Todo was a Space War 1 survivor that did held a grudge on Zentradi but even he had to be polite to Zentradi as it was politically correct. He was given an opportunity to stop Earth's holocaust and screw the Zentradi with time travel. Something even the Protoculture went Nope and sealed the Evil Series that made it possible. As much devastated were their civilization they weren't that desperate or insane. Macross 30 MC Leon Sakaki rebutted to Todo that sure it was a tragedy but that doesn't mean it gives him the right to rewrite history as humanity worked hard achieving an interstellar community. In fact Todo's Havamal attacked local NUNS bases leading them to ask for help from the Hunter Guild, VF freelancers. Todo was also behind the increased bandit and Zentradi riot activity.

[Tak]

Dood Wolfie, I intentionally keep my gig short and compact because I have a strange feeling that only you and I would go nerdgasm-giggles for anything Macross. Overwhelming additional info outside of media within immediate reach is going to confuse a lot of folks here...

- Tak

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Goodness another ignorant one.
From Macross Chronicle.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...elineTF02A.php

Umm... ReddyRedWolf, I'm not sure if you didn't understand my post or if I didn't express myself correctly because english is not my first language but I was agreeing with you.

I was trying to say that IF NUNS was evil and/or xenophobe like some people here claimed, instead of doing what you described they would choose to simply conquer other civilizations, but of course NUNS does not do that.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Windermere's intent? Invading the entire cluster then the entire galaxy.

So who are the real invaders?

Again, I agree, I asked "which race started to invade and conquer other planets?" the answer is obviously Windermere.

[Matts]

I think it's fun to read to be honest. Granted I looked up game related stuff a few times and bit of chronology post SDFM to know where characters went, so I can make sense of RRWs posts (and Taks).

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

Dood Wolfie, I intentionally keep my gig short and compact because I have a strange feeling that only you and I would go nerdgasm-giggles for anything Macross. Overwhelming additional info outside of media within immediate reach is going to confuse a lot of folks here...

- Tak

Actually, I totally love when you guys do this. My exposure to Macross is limited by my language barrier (and my contempt for some of the behaviour of the tech nerds on Macross World, but that is another topic...), hence such views into the wider world of Macross are always fascinating and appreciated. And make me a little bit bitter that I miss so much of it, because I can't play those games like Macross 30. Oh, well.

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Umm... ReddyRedWolf, I'm not sure if you didn't understand my post or if I didn't express myself correctly because english is not my first language but I was agreeing with you.

I was trying to say that IF NUNS was evil and/or xenophobe like some people here claimed, instead of doing what you described they would choose to simply conquer other civilizations, but of course NUNS does not do that.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Father Hentai and got the quote wrong.

[Tak]

So, 26 episodes later and the war is finally over.

Except well, not quite. The series left a big open question. That being, what is going to happen to the Kingdom of Windermere.

To start off, Windermere is suffering from a series of internal catastrophes. Windermere is dying, the Kingdom's trump card is destroyed, its military in shambles, its only trading partner left, and its people have nowhere to go.

Adding to that list of dilemma is the fact that Windermere also aggravated just about everyone in the galaxy.

Macross TV series tend to end with warring factions making peace, but not in this case.

Well then... now what?

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

Well then... now what?

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
They have their planet back, have been "vindicated" about the whole story on the planet bombing and all that jazz... But they shouldn't be absolved over the many things they subjected the people from the cluster to - or the fate they tried to force the whole Galaxy into.
They are not in a strong enough position to negotiate anything, IMHO, tho. No matter what mayonnaise-boy seems to think.

For the Wind apologists out there: I'm not condoning the NUNS cabal, here. Simply responding to Tak's question. That's a whole other point.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

Macross TV series tend to end with warring factions making peace, but not in this case.

Well then... now what?

- Tak

We don't have any proof if any military actions against windermere will come up and from the current point, Heinz has no intention to continue the war. At least not with conventional ways.

By all means, the culprits on windermere side are dead and chaos holds the evidence that NUN used an illegal weapon on windermere not windermere themselve.

Everybody has to rebuild their reputation and their public relationship from here on. This should give hope that they will negotiate a treatments that serves both in the future and not only one participant.

My personal opinion why it's left open. The main theme (bomb on windermere) reflects the bombing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the US in the pacific wars. Until today no participants have excused officially by diplomatic or governmental statement. Neither did Japan excuse for Pearl Harbor, nor did the US excuse the necessity for nuclear warheads on civil targets. That's why it's left open.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

My personal opinion why it's left open. The main theme (bomb on windermere) reflects the bombing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the US in the pacific wars. Until today no participants have excused officially by diplomatic or governmental statement. Neither did Japan excuse for Pearl Harbor, nor did the US excuse the necessity for nuclear warheads on civil targets. That's why it's left open.

The difference is that in WW2 Japan was punished for invading China, while in Delta Windermere is expected to get away with their invasions.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The difference is that in WW2 Japan was punished for invading China, while in Delta Windermere is expected to get away with their invasions.

This is maybe your expectation but speak for yourself. There is no proof that windermere gets away without penalties, so there is a possibility that they will face the same punishment as Japan got. But again. It's left open for good reasons and also new ideas for a new series.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

My personal opinion why it's left open. The main theme (bomb on windermere) reflects the bombing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the US in the pacific wars. Until today no participants have excused officially by diplomatic or governmental statement.

Except that is between the United States and Japan.

The current Chinese government on the other hand, still seek reparations and strongly object to the Treaty of San Francisco, which came into effect in 1952. China's usual excuse revolve around something along the lines of well, we (CCP) didn't sign it...

But thats another story.

- - - - -

I would very much like to see Windermerian characters in future installments, because I think their race is a neat concept. That being said...

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The difference is that in WW2 Japan was punished for invading China, while in Delta Windermere is expected to get away with their invasions.

I am pretty realist when it comes to this topic...

Its not very practical to expect anything from Windermerians, due to the lack of decent or even meaningful returns.

In fact, a NUN dictated peace is probably Windermere's least of worries right now.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Do you think that Freyja, Hayate and the crew of Chaos and Walküre would want that another war erupt?

Currently I don't see a reason for both sides to continue the war on conventional and military resources.

Maybe windermere is low on resource and Material but what should NUN do? Behave the same as windermere did? If that is the case then humanity has not learned about their past and are doomed to repeat the errors.