2010-02-10, 19:59 | Link #6021 | |
Junior Member
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Yes its kinda fucked up how a girl would like to dress up as a boy for fun and end up building relationships with two persons at the same time (if you count Kanon), but it could work with a good explanation. You could say for example that Jessica didnt know about Kanon and Shannon dressed up as him to help her friend but it kinda of backfired, or you could say that Jessica knows about Shkanon and asked her to pose as her boyfriend because of the pression of her friends. And George relationship could simply be the true one. The main problem lies when you add the ''trice'' to the equation. For Shkanontrice to happen in the first place, even if you disregard DID, as it is utterly ridiculous, Shkanontrice would need to be a VERY fucked up person, and have a good motive for murdering/participating in the murders. Something better than a Pony promise. She would need to be a person fucked up enough to be able to kill her best friend, the people that were like a family for her all her life, her love interest, her other love interest and even killing herself in the end without remorse. Then people come and throw goldsmithmind saying that goldsmith raped her and she's problematic because of that....but kinzo is dead, shannon/kanon doesnt have problems in her life, and the motive of the murders is NOT vengeance against the Ushiromiya family....There simply isnt a point, a motive, a reason. This is too messed up. Also for Shkanontrice to work almost half of the island, or all the servants, would need to be in the killings. For a game that hammered ''without love it cannot be seen'' in our heads i cant really see any love on a ending like that. |
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2010-02-10, 20:41 | Link #6022 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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And for the "Kanon dying as the 9th victim." argument, since you all won't give up and just let it be I will stop coming up with any serious arguments and go with the easiest. Battler died last so that leaves 16 other people, Shanon and Kanon would make the number 14-15 so let's say 15. 15-9=6 so I claim that 6 people simultaneously died with Kanon making them all the 9th victim. Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-02-10 at 20:57. |
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2010-02-10, 23:00 | Link #6024 | |
Junior Member
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If you got so far in ''wanting to believe'' to support personas dying as a good answer you just stopped thinking and nothing i say will prove you that you are wrong. What i dont like about these discussions (i participate in a great part of these in 4chan) is that most (not all) of the people that support Shkanontrice, simply accept every single thing that the main creators of the theory came up with and dont ever try to adapt it and look for another answers just because its too damn convenient. Anyway mass threatening doesnt work as easily as you say. |
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2010-02-11, 02:42 | Link #6025 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Again, I really don't think Ep4 is the deciding 'evidence' here.
I think it's Ep1 and 3. As the only solution for the corpse count equaling 1 Kanon and 1 Shannon and there being only 1 body is 'everyone is in on it but Battler' (to move the body or lie about what they saw), which is so ridiculously unlikely that it's foolish to even consider it. Reiterating: We know Shannon was physically dead at the time they found her body. Not only was 'instant death' (unable to move) proclaimed, but later in Ep4 you have the red "the keys were found next to the corpses". So Shannon was a corpse at that point in time. They then find Kanon's body. The adults moved as a group, and only Kyrie and Rosa were away from that group. The only 'solution' here is Kyrie and Rosa are both the culprits of the first twilight (as they'd have to know the chapel was one of the supposed closed rooms) both picked up Shannon's corpse, took it to an unlocked chapel, deposited it, then somehow went and got it and put it back later. But then, not only is that absurd enough, you have to ask WHY they'd know about Shkanon and what they'd gain from perpetuating it, etc. Similar situation in Episode 1; Hideyoshi sees Shannon's corpse while Kanon is right there. Hideyoshi sees her face smashed up. That's either one impressive home-made corpse, or Shannon herself. Of course you can get around all this by just saying they're separate people and Kanon died beforehand. But then of course that conflicts with "The only person who can claim Kanon's name is the original person." As far as I can tell, both Shkanon and Erika-doesn't-exist are completely impossible. Both seem to be outright contradicted by the red and require stretching the red or reinterpreting the meanings of it. And using the analogy I've used plenty times before- I don't think Ryuukishi is actually doing 'it's red and round' and he means an apple (though some would think ball). I think he's saying 'it's red, round, and has a stem'. So everyone thinks apple. But he means a cherry instead. So there's something that uses a similar trick (it's undeniable that there's SOMETHING up with Shannon and Kanon, and Erika on the whole is very unbelievable) that we just haven't seen yet. Unknown cherry X for culprit. (Small cherry bombs?) EDIT: I want to throw in, at the bare minimum for how many people would have to know about Kanon never existing if we take that route, we'd have like 6 people (Not including 'Shannon' and 'Kanon' themselves). That's almost exactly half the remaining human cast. Last edited by tcaz2; 2010-02-11 at 02:52. |
2010-02-11, 03:53 | Link #6026 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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The first time the adults checked the 'corpses' they were all still alive. After all the closed rooms were broken the culprit killed them all. Then some of the adults went through and checked the corpses again for clues. By the time of the second check, all of them were really dead and that's when the adults found the keys. I don't think it was ever mentioned if the adults checked each room once or twice. I'll look that up...
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2010-02-11, 04:21 | Link #6027 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Actually... why and how did George leave the guesthouse? It can't just have been to molest Shannon's cold and immobile cadaver, right? |
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2010-02-11, 04:36 | Link #6028 | |
Junior Member
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With the boiler room door being unlockable its not even a closed room at all. |
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2010-02-11, 04:47 | Link #6029 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I'm pretty sure Ryukishi must have forgot that line from Ep1 about the door. Either way, as has been said, all the rooms in that chain fit Beatrice's closed room definition, so there was no way anyone could have entered the boiler room through that door anyway. |
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2010-02-11, 04:53 | Link #6031 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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So you're implying that George is/was working with Nanjo? |
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2010-02-11, 04:53 | Link #6032 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Second The case I presented is not really a wordplay. Basic assumptions in the reds are a given fact. I have already talked about the basic assumption behind the "doors that can only be opened with a key". For what concerns Battler and the setting of the game there is really only one Kanon, there's no pointing in calling out for a Kanon that exists or existed outside this Rokkenjima. Quote:
Unless this is something ridiculous as "well I was just talking about 15 (or 6) random people in the world" or "personalities count as people", you need to have a dead Kanon in the picture... or that there have really been 17 people in the island all along. Funny how our roles reversed...
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2010-02-11, 05:09 | Link #6033 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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"I tried visiting Doctor Nanjo's room and asking whether he needed more coffee, but he said he didn't need any more either..." "getting coffee" could be code for "planning the murders" I could be wrong though...
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2010-02-11, 05:51 | Link #6034 | ||
Junior Member
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Another solution would be the one of the letter to have been slipped out by one of the adults as it is theorized in blue by Battler and accepted by Beatrice...This closed room isnt a hard one at all. Quote:
The problem doesnt lie in the possibility of existing a unknown trick in the way lambda speaks but in the fact that you cant use this possibility as evidence. Red is there to avoid this kind of thing, not to be ignored with the very reason of it existing. If you point a plausible way of Kanon's name being clamed by Shannon bipassing this red and without implying that they were always the same person i would be more than happy. I want to deny Shkanontrice, but most of all i want to deny this DID cancer that people keep on insisting. But trick x really doesnt work. Anyway for making this post a little more useful i would like to propose a discussion about a detail that rised in my mind: Firstly this is assuming that in episode 4, in the days of the serial murders, Shannon and Kanon are the same person Battler meets someone that claims to be Beatrice after both phone calls of Jessica, Kyrie and the ''Beatrice'' herself. In these phone calls its implied that there are only four human survivors in the island: The unknown person calling herself Beatrice, Kinzo, Battler and Maria. Kinzo is dead. So it falls to three people. Obviously as EP 4 is full of tricks you can simply deny most of the deaths. Until the box is open we cannot know if the cat is dead or alive, and Battler only sees the corpses of all the persons in the island after meeting with Beatrice and being the one lone survivor. But here lies some problems: Both Kyrie and Jessica tells Battler not only how they will die but how all other people on the island died and how their corpses would be found, if they didnt die yet how would they know about that? Its stated in red that kanon was the 9th victim so he must have been killed after 8 people were already dead. When Battler is heading to meet Beatrice he finds George, Kumasawa and Gohda dead bodies, so as long as the detective authority stands all of then were already dead when Battler met Beatrice. If you imply that all the 6 people from the first twilight died before that, as long as math stands it would be impossible for Shkanontrice to happen(and appear before Battler) as there would be 9 dead victims, and kanon/shannon MUST die right after the 8th one. So the only way out of this mess (while mantaining Shkanontrice) is if at least two people from the first twilight kills(or one person + Jessica) werent already dead, and all the people of Kyrie's supposed group including herself were still alive at this point. but even so Kyrie knew how every one of them would die and how their corpses would be found, also its impossible for Shannon be the last person to die using the suicide-in-front-of-the-well-trick, as she's the 9th victim alongside with Kanon. So whoever was the last one to die would need to dispose of the suicide weapon in another way. So well...i posted it in 4chan and nobody could find a answer for this mess, guess you guys could have a try. Remembering that ''Persona died'' isnt a good answer. |
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2010-02-11, 06:05 | Link #6035 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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---------------------------------------- Crazy speculation time: There are always puzzles on why Shannon and Kanon got taken into Rokkenjima so early (6 years old and 13), and their repeated saying they were just furnitures even in front of Battler and other people. Now I have come up with some crazy idea. I suppose Shannon and Kanon were children of Genji, not that Genji had a wife though, I meant Shannon and Kanon were just product of Kinzo's method to revive Beatrice by combining Genji's sperm (Kinzo would not do so as 1967 Beatrice was his daughter, but most because Genji had a better body than Kinzo as Kinzo knew he had a serious disease) with 1967 Beatrice's egg (frozen and kept). That's why Shannon and Kanon had been always saying they were furniture, since they were not born from love but just experiment products, that's why they always deemed themselves as less than humans. Genji was the biological father of them so they were always following his orders, and also reason why they were adopted into Ushiromiya family so early, and also the frail body of Kanon and seemlying visal impairment (EP2) because he had some genetical defection from the in vitro fertilization. The baby 19 years ago was Kinzo's first successfully produced child through in vitro fertilization, however Natsuhi caused his demise and Kinzo laughed in sadness because he thought that the fate has been trying to stop him from keeping Beatrice's offspring in the world. The major problem was obviously in vitro fertilization was done first in 1973. Again, I believe it was the reason why EP3 and EP5 kept on emphasizing how the siblings think their father who could do what normal people could not. The foreshadowing was here. And Ryukishi07 could argue that most of these first instance was not performed previously not merely because of technological constraint but also ethically implication, however Kinzo was free of most of these ethically consideration. Therefore, with his immense wealth, his unbelievable willpower, his strong desire to resurrect 1967 Beatrice and lack of ethical concerns, he could have arguably achieved these breakthrough a few years earlier than the history records. Hints are from EP6: Spoiler for EP6:
Something even more crazier : Then I think back from the beginning scene of EP1, Kinzo said he needed to accomplish something before he was dead, now we knew he was already dead and EP5 portrayed him as dying in sleep. So I suspect what he was trying to finish was already done such that he passed away in peace. What he was trying to do in 1985 or 1986? I think it was human cloning, which was already proposed as possible in 1960s. Now let's think about who Ange really saw as Eva on 1998's Rokkenjima...
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-02-11 at 06:32. |
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2010-02-11, 06:07 | Link #6036 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The first Kanon doesn't need to be Shannon's little brother for this to work, you just need a random servant named Kanon in the past. Quote:
- It is by no mean necessary that at the time Beatrice talks to Battler they were all dead except 3 people. - Jessica explained in detail how she would die and certainly she wasn't dead so you have this problem about someone knowing beforehand how people will die in any case. This can be solved with the theory that there is a big conspiracy against Battler leading him to believe a mass murder is occurring but they are all just faking it... and then a real killer kills them all taking advantage of the situation.
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2010-02-11, 08:58 | Link #6037 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
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Furthermore, does that part help us solve anything in general? Okay, so Genji is possibly Shannon and Kannon's father. So? Quote:
To argue that Kinzo had a cloning machine is from my perspective not very different from arguing that he could turn himself into mist or small bombs - a cloning machine is from my persective a major violation of Knox's 4th, and falls under the problem of that any sufficiently advanced technology can substitute for magic. Quote:
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2010-02-11, 09:59 | Link #6038 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! Because the "Kanon" in this sentence can only refer to the Kanon in the gameboard and not not to any Kanon of the past. However isn't Kinzo's presence here a violation of the basic assumption? He might be physically somewhere in Rokkenjima as a corpse, but his death is an event that lies outside of the boundaries of the gameboard. And the next red specifically refers to the act of dying: The 6 people died instantly!
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2010-02-11, 10:24 | Link #6039 | |
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2010-02-11, 11:01 | Link #6040 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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On what Shannon and Kanon being Genji's biological children could bring to our discussion, it means 1. Kanon could not be the baby from 19 years ago, nor could he be the son of Rudolf and Asumu. And now their background has been clear. 2. It gave the reason why Shannon and Kanon would assist Genji and Kinzo even if it was about murdering, since Genji was their father and they owned everything to Genji and Kinzo, otherwise they would not exist from the beginning. 3. It just made sense of Shannon and Kanon's behaviour and beliefs, on why they thought so lowly of themselves before they met their loves.
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