[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Squirrellord]

Yeah, Jessica says that he's 2 years younger than him.
If we're going to suppose that's true though, I'm sure Kinzo would know. I just can't see him letting someone with Ushiromiya blood in their veins be a servant, furniture, etc. Unless he was born from Kyrie, not Asumu

[Aerocross]

I just checked page 82 of that translation thread and something bugs me. Kanon and Shannon are the same age? They really had an elder sister/younger brother vibe to me. And Shannon's only 16? It has some strange implications for her relationship with George when we factor in how long he's supposedly carried it on in secret.

And on another note, do any of you recall when Kanon joined the head house? I wasn't six years ago by any chance, was it? I recall that Shannon's been working for ten years.

[k//eternal]

Aerocross, age of consent in Japan is way different from in the US.

Kanon certainly can't have joined six years ago or Battler would have known him.

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by Aerocross

I just checked page 82 of that translation thread and something bugs me. Kanon and Shannon are the same age? They really had an elder sister/younger brother vibe to me. And Shannon's only 16? It has some strange implications for her relationship with George when we factor in how long he's supposedly carried it on in secret.

And on another note, do any of you recall when Kanon joined the head house? I wasn't six years ago by any chance, was it? I recall that Shannon's been working for ten years.

Episode two says Kanon is the newest "furniture", implying he is younger than Shannon. I don't know how much younger, though...

[Aerocross]

Would he really have known him, assuming that he only met him once when they first met? It's clear that in his meeting with school-uniform Beatrice in Episode 4 that he's not remembering something about his past. I'm not saying that this incident in particular is the sin for which we should be looking, but I think a reasonable possibility that he's forgotten/misinformed about certain things exists.

[Squirrellord]

the Umineko wiki says that Kanon's worked for 3 years.
Also, going off the naming patterns from the -on people, his name probably begins with Ka, Yoshi, or other pronunciations of 嘉

[k//eternal]

I'm still waiting for someone named Senon to show up.

And Squirrel, I don't think I've seen said wiki, maybe we should get it linked.

[Squirrellord]

http://umineco.info/

It's in Japanese though, so I'd suggest using the Rikaichan Firefox plugin or something (pop-up Japanese translator)

Here's Kanon's page
http://umineco.info/?%E4%BD%BF%E7%94%A8%E4%BA%BA#kanon
And this is the line
勤続は3年前から

[crazysjd89]

I posted this theory way back, aong with my entire theory for Episodes 1-4, but I think I'll post it here again, for the people who are just now getting to read Episode 4:

Spoiler for Battler's Death:

As for Battler, this is a bit tricky, and like Kanon's Zombie, relies on a bit of word playing, I wonder if Beatrice is "Belief". No one believed Battler was alive after seeing the 17 corpses, so in effect, he was "killed".

Furthermore, what Kyrie said earlier, about "missing for 9 years then being legally dead", so since no one ever found Battler, he eventually became legally dead. He was killed off because so many people believed he was dead.

[k//eternal]

Ah, lovely. I like it.

Spoiler:

Think there's a chance then that EP4 Battler technically survived, but not legally?

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Spoiler for Chapter 14:

The photo of the door is probably Kuwadorian. Unless it really is the location of the hidden gold, in which case it'd be somewhere near the main house (since both Eva and Rosa were able to sneak there in part 3)

At episode 2, when the group is leaving the sanctuary, there's a similar writting there

Maybe it's the sanctuary

Maria translated it like this:
この扉は、奇跡が起きない限り、開かれない。
あなたは、奇跡が起きない限り、祝福されない

While Kumasawa translated it like this:
この扉は千兆分の一の確率でしか開かない。
あなたは千兆分の一の確率でしか祝福されない。


Which are pretty much the same translation

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Renall

Spoiler for Twilight Order:

An interesting note: Gohda and Kumasawa are listed as the Ninth Twilights. If the order of the twilights is the order in which people die, then they were killed after Kyrie. Kyrie's phone call can be given a definite time, so at that time we can assume that Gohda and Kumasawa were still alive!

Even if Episode 2 was really messy, it has shown that the murder order isn't always the same as the staking/twilight order. To prove it this statement, Kinzo was confirmed dead before any gameboard is taking place (so, before 4th October 1986). However, he IS counted in the twilight order nevertheless.

Therefore, you cannot claim Gohda and Kumasawa were still alive when Kyrie died. In fact, there is no guarantee they weren't kill right after they were locked in the gardening storagehouse.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

2) Another thing that really bothers me is that damn cliffhanger Ryukishi put me in when Ange sees that thing at the Captain house and she finally understand magic... what the hell was that?! Any theory? Damn you Ryukishi!!!

My take about this is like this (and a lot of people had the same as well):
That Ange found another Sakutarou plushie.

That match with Mammon, Sakutarou and Ange's reactions, but especially with Beato's:

Beato:
"There's no way that's magic...!! This is my Golden Land!! A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist!! And my magic was not able to revive Sakutarou...!! There's no way it could!! That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only, .........ah, ...............u, ...............ah......"

Ange:
"................See, ...it's magic, right?"

Beato:
"Uu, ......oh......, ......ah, .........aaahhh, .........aaaaaaaaaahhhh......"

2 things to note:
1) Beato couldn't go on with the red truth regarding Sakutarou. She most likely tried to say sakutarou is unique, which is not the case.
2) Ange never used red truth here, and shed a tear when she says " See,... it's magic, right?". Ange wasn't really happy go lucky and kept her tears despite it was supposed to be a happy moment for Maria.

Therefore, you can conclude 2 different things, depending of your theory:
1) Rosa lied, and the "made" was only a playword (it was never claimed in red before this point that Rosa handmade it).
2) That Sakutarou got mass produced after (by Rosa's company perhaps).

As for me, I prefer the first 1: this does connect with Ange's reaction, as she is trying to insist on magic, but in the end, Maria's magic is totally ineffective as she is believing in delusions, own belief that are better to protect oneself than facing reality.
But in order not to hurt Maria, Ange lied and tagged along as she still considered that magic: even if it is a fraud, it allowed Maria to remain happy, preventing her to be thrown in the depth of despair and insanity.

5) Obligatory comment to tea party. I understand I'm not the only one that noticed that Battler's attacks weren't really effective. Beatrice gave up on very debatable theories. My thoughts at the moment were: Ryukishi is playing with the fans again, he's basically making Battler saying all the popular theories that were posted in various forums. This was dirty trick, I imagine various people jumping on their seat screaming: "yes I knew it!!!" Too bad I've never liked any of those theories XD so it wasn't very effective with me °°;

Well, he did that before with Episode 2 already. In fact, you can almost tell that Ryukishi played the role of Beatrice and placed the pieces to make sure it cannot confirm even more most theories that aren't valid.

8) About Ange's story conclusion I have different theories. Well of course I don't believe that she actually summoned the stakes. The most probable theory is that Amakusa sniped them one after another, simple as that. The bullets that were stopped is just a fantasy. Another theory is that Ange died there and she only imagined she was actually the one to kill her murderers. The last theory is that Ange died by falling from the skyscraper. However this one is a mindfuck. If that's true then I'll have to doubt anything she has found out during the travel that didn't actually happen.

Ange dying right there isn't exactly possible: as shown in all games, the dead doesn't "extend" their delusions past their death. Therefore, Ange managed to live at some point when facing Kasumi.
However, I also speculated that Amasuka sniped them (which is the most logical conclusion: Ange said she wouldn't take too long, but she went through a forest and Kasumi and her cronies tortured her for quite several minutes). That said, Deathkillz told me something really surprising in this scene:
Kasumi shot Ange, but they never stated that the bullet was reflected, not even once. The time froze, then Mammon appears and kill Kasumi. Only after that; the Black Witch appear and impersonate Eva etc.

Furthermore, the last gunshot was never described: we don't even know who is that "she" and more importantly: "Eva's gun" exploded, so it cannot be Ange that did it, especially it doesn't make sense for her to finish off a delusion with a gun, while she has her stakes.

Therefore, we can speculate that Kasumi and/or Ange didn't have a instant death and the other died as well.
1) If Ange was shot accordingly, she is bleeding and imagine even more delusions. At this point, Amakusa kills Kasumi, but it is too late and Ange died from her wound.
2) Amakusa sniped Kasumi before she could do anything, but if we speculate that Kasumi didn't die immediately, you can bet she would try to pulls Ange with her in hell.


It is also possible that Ange survived and died later on that year: it was never confirmed she died on Rokkenjima: actually, it is just the same kind of automatic conjuncture people do, like when Battler was considered as "invalid" despite the only thing was "not asumu's son".

10) Battler's is not Asumu's son... shock!!! Well frankly I don't think he's Kyries son. And BTW I wouldn't say for certain that he's Rudolf's son. I guess someone can point out that red truth says he's Ange's brother. However the red truth also says that Asumu is his mother. Which mean... family relationships are not bound to genetic. Even if Battler was an adopted child, Asumu would still be his mother and Ange would still be his sister. And that basically mean that he'd still qualify as Kinzo's grandson even if he wasn't related by blood to him °°;;; But well it's not like I believe so, after all it's been said many times that the two are very similar.
Anyway I think we can use this fact to explain the strange behaviour of Rudolf in episode one. He wanted to have an important family meeting. I think he was going to disclose the truth in front of Kyrie and Battler. And when he said he was probably going to die... well... considering the situation I think he was thinking that after telling them that Asumu never got pregnant he would have been killed by both his wife and his son. Now what is unclear is why he decided to tell them in that place. Is there any connection with Beatrice?

No, it was never stated battler's mother was Asumu (it only confirmed that the real Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son). The red only confirmed that Ange is Battler's sister.

12) Shannon is Kanon? Truly this episode4 removed one of the major obstacle to the acceptance of this theory. A lot of people see both of them at the same time? Big deal, that also goes for Kinzo. So this kind of argument doesn't work anymore. The fact remains that Battler never sees both of them at the same time, and Battler is the only one we can trust at this point.
I guess someone could say: in episode1 he sees Shannon's body and Kanon is near. That's not exactly true... No one except Hideyoshi and Nanjo look at her face. But it's said in red that there was not mistake in the identification of the corpses! Yep, but does a fake body qualify as corpse? Of course not.

That doesn't work to begin with: Battler saw a corpse, but he couldn't see Shannon, but then?
You cannot claim it is a fake corpse. If we use the definition of "fake corpse" it is basically meaning that it isn't a human being to start with. However, it is very unlikely you can mix up something for a corpse. And since corpse are confirmed, it is not exactly workin.

The problem is... Ryukishi is a real bastard... when he removes one obstacle to a certain theory he just add anther one.
First: Kanon was the first to die of the 5 people with Kyrie
You see the problem? If you answered: "if Kanon doesn't exist then he couldn't be the first to die", wrong! That's not the problem, Shannon was the first to die, and if Shannon is Kanon then that's settled. The problem is that "five". I could someone go around this problem by saying there was an unknown 5th person with them, maybe Beatrice herself.

That doesn't work with the maximum of 17 people on Rokkenjima. Of course, if you state that Kanon = Shannon, it will reduce the number to 16 and the culprit is the 17th. However, you are implying that the culprit was with Kyrie as a group: that doesn't make sense.

It's been stated several times that Kanon died, but it's never been stated HOW he died. Beatrice refuses to tell. Actually we know in one case it wasn't homicide, it wasn't suicide. I believe this is true for any game. Kanon died before the events of this game exactly like Kinzo. Yeah that's what I thought until Lambda used this inconvenient red truth.
However I haven't given up yet... I'm sure there's a trick to it...
After all if Shannon and Kanon are the same person a lot of mysteries can be solved.

No it isn't true for any game: Beatrice stated clearly that Kanon was killed in episode 2. So it IS an homicide in episode 2 at least. We also know in episode 3 that none of the 6 commited suicide.

Originally Posted by Aerocross

I just checked page 82 of that translation thread and something bugs me. Kanon and Shannon are the same age? They really had an elder sister/younger brother vibe to me. And Shannon's only 16? It has some strange implications for her relationship with George when we factor in how long he's supposedly carried it on in secret.

And on another note, do any of you recall when Kanon joined the head house? I wasn't six years ago by any chance, was it? I recall that Shannon's been working for ten years.

Age is totally irrelevant with relationship in Japanese culture. It is even possible to consider someone as a "older sibling" even if they are younger than you.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Even if Episode 2 was really messy, it has shown that the murder order isn't always the same as the staking/twilight order. To prove it this statement, Kinzo was confirmed dead before any gameboard is taking place (so, before 4th October 1986). However, he IS counted in the twilight order nevertheless.

Therefore, you cannot claim Gohda and Kumasawa were still alive when Kyrie died. In fact, there is no guarantee they weren't kill right after they were locked in the gardening storagehouse.

The difference here is the only order we have to go on is the order the record gives us. In the other games, Kinzo becomes a twilight because he's found at the right time and staked in the right place. In ep4, Battler has neither of these options available. So either the game itself is just lying about the order, or we're meant to be able to trust it. I don't know if it matters either way, but if either Gohda or Kumasawa has any involvement, it's possible for them to have left the shed and come back to it so long as at least one person was outside to let them in and out and pass the key. Of course how they did that at the very last is trickier.

[Klashikari]

The whole "Battler had to determine the order" doesn't work at all, especially because of episode 4.
There is no way Battler could determine when Kinzo "died": he could even be dead before Kyrie's group, he just don't know anything after Jessica and George death in episode 4.

And I also mentioned episode 2 for that reason: Kinzo was mentioned as the tenth twilight, despite it is unlikely Battler could meet him.

Since Kinzo's death is confirmed as a fact, it pretty much confirm the death order has nothing to do with the twilight. And that Battler is absolutely not the one that can claim which order it was.
Furthermore, Battler can't tell which stake are: he just noticed a different demon between stakes in episode 1, that's all. So he is hardly the one who determine the witch record.

And again, the epitaph was never confirmed as a ritual to kill everyone: proof is that Eva managed to find out the gold in Episode 3 with it.

[Jan-Poo]

"you surpasses my husband in smooth talk"

Wait, Kyrie said that in regard of George, not Kanon.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Aerocross, age of consent in Japan is way different from in the US.

Kanon certainly can't have joined six years ago or Battler would have known him.

Squirrellod quoted the wiki, anyway I can confirm it is said in the game that Kanon started working three years before.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Even if Episode 2 was really messy, it has shown that the murder order isn't always the same as the staking/twilight order. To prove it this statement, Kinzo was confirmed dead before any gameboard is taking place (so, before 4th October 1986). However, he IS counted in the twilight order nevertheless.

I agree, the ritual is completely messed up. There are several hints about this fact. However the very fact that Kinzo died before the events of the game prove that the epitaph is not followed correctly. Also the stakes in episode4 aren't were they are supposed to be.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

My take about this is like this (and a lot of people had the same as well):
That Ange found another Sakutarou plushie.

That match with Mammon, Sakutarou and Ange's reactions, but especially with Beato's:

2 things to note:
1) Beato couldn't go on with the red truth regarding Sakutarou. She most likely tried to say sakutarou is unique, which is not the case.
2) Ange never used red truth here, and shed a tear when she says " See,... it's magic, right?". Ange wasn't really happy go lucky and kept her tears despite it was supposed to be a happy moment for Maria.

Therefore, you can conclude 2 different things, depending of your theory:
1) Rosa lied, and the "made" was only a playword (it was never claimed in red before this point that Rosa handmade it).
2) That Sakutarou got mass produced after (by Rosa's company perhaps).

As for me, I prefer the first 1: this does connect with Ange's reaction, as she is trying to insist on magic, but in the end, Maria's magic is totally ineffective as she is believing in delusions, own belief that are better to protect oneself than facing reality.
But in order not to hurt Maria, Ange lied and tagged along as she still considered that magic: even if it is a fraud, it allowed Maria to remain happy, preventing her to be thrown in the depth of despair and insanity.

I also thought about Sakutarou, and after reading your answer it does seem to be the case. You can explain many different things with that. So in the end what Ange found out is that "magic = lie" ?
Well I guess Ange would use another word, but that's probably it, isn't? "This is my magic" becomes "this is my lie", and no matter how much Beatrice tries to deny it with the red truth, after all magic is a lie so it is only natural that it doesn't match with the red truth °°;

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Kasumi shot Ange, but they never stated that the bullet was reflected, not even once. The time froze, then Mammon appears and kill Kasumi. Only after that; the Black Witch appear and impersonate Eva etc.

Furthermore, the last gunshot was never described: we don't even know who is that "she" and more importantly: "Eva's gun" exploded, so it cannot be Ange that did it, especially it doesn't make sense for her to finish off a delusion with a gun, while she has her stakes.

Therefore, we can speculate that Kasumi and/or Ange didn't have a instant death and the other died as well.
1) If Ange was shot accordingly, she is bleeding and imagine even more delusions. At this point, Amakusa kills Kasumi, but it is too late and Ange died from her wound.
2) Amakusa sniped Kasumi before she could do anything, but if we speculate that Kasumi didn't die immediately, you can bet she would try to pulls Ange with her in hell.

Yeah this is the most probably version of the story. It is sad that Amakusa ultimately failed, though... however it seems undeniable that Ange died, and therefore Kasumi most probably managed to kill her.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No, it was never stated battler's mother was Asumu (it only confirmed that the real Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son). The red only confirmed that Ange is Battler's sister.

Uhm you are right... I didn't notice it first... however this mean there are two people that can rightfully call themselves Ushiromiya Battler. Since Battler says in red "Im am Ushiromiya Battler", there is not such a thing as a real Battler and a fake Battler, they are both real. Now the question is Asumu's son is alive or died?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That doesn't work to begin with: Battler saw a corpse, but he couldn't see Shannon, but then?
You cannot claim it is a fake corpse. If we use the definition of "fake corpse" it is basically meaning that it isn't a human being to start with. However, it is very unlikely you can mix up something for a corpse. And since corpse are confirmed, it is not exactly workin.
That doesn't work with the maximum of 17 people on Rokkenjima. Of course, if you state that Kanon = Shannon, it will reduce the number to 16 and the culprit is the 17th. However, you are implying that the culprit was with Kyrie as a group: that doesn't make sense.

It is also very unlikely that you can see goat people and demons. However at this point we have no choice to accept that a lot of people either are all lying or hallucinating. The fact that they mistake a puppet for Shannon how is that different from the fact they've seen all those ridiculous things in episode4? You can't trust anything but the red truth
That's what Battler stated in red.
About Kyrie and the group it does make sense. One of the possible ways to explain all those strange things they have said by telephone is that they are forced to do so. So the culprit must be with them. The other theory is they are all acomplices... so it's only natural the mastermind was with them. However that doesn't explain why they died.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

]No it isn't true for any game: Beatrice stated clearly that Kanon was killed in episode 2. So it IS an homicide in episode 2 at least. We also know in episode 3 that none of the 6 commited suicide.

You are right, Kanon was killed in episode2 in Shannon's room. I had previously speculated that it was the real Kanon's death. However why Beatrice has problems to say that Kanon was killed in other instances? Anyway episode2 is the only case where Kanon's cause of death was clearly confirmed. Of course if in later episodes Kanon's death location or death cause change then the whole theory falls apart.


About the ending riddle. It would be easily solved if we accept something non human as the cause of death. However there's that Eva-Beato red truth: "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board!". It says "this game" though... should I think this doesn't apply to the rest? But it's strange... if Beatrice was... an animal or something like that... could she really have nothing to do with any game?
Anyway it is said that Battler is alone. There is no way another human is alive on this island (unless there's a lame play on words). So even theories like there are two battlers do not work.
As crazy I also imagined something abstract. Is Beatrice "loneliness" or "madness"? This is still a play of words, in the end it would be a suicide in practical terms. And in the case of "belief" that's still a play on words. We'd have to assume that the red truth can state lies, which is kinda preposterous.
Beatrice could also be a natural disaster (hallucinogen volcanic gas?) but I still wonder if that can match with Eva-Beato's red truth. The natural disaster explains why there aren't seagulls and why the whole case has been labeled as incident in 1998.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I also thought about Sakutarou, and after reading your answer it does seem to be the case. You can explain many different things with that. So in the end what Ange found out is that "magic = lie" ?
Well I guess Ange would use another word, but that's probably it, isn't? "This is my magic" becomes "this is my lie", and no matter how much Beatrice tries to deny it with the red truth, after all magic is a lie so it is only natural that it doesn't match with the red truth °°;

The thing is that we can't exactly tell if it is a "lie". To begin with, Maria considered "that" Sakutarou as she believes he is unique (because of her own belief that Rosa was the only one who could make it). Therefore, you can say that "magic" can be any means or methods to keep and maintain one's happiness, even if it is to lie or not to tell the truth (both are close, but essentially different).

This is also connecting with "Maria's magic" which Ange was regretfully praising, as it managed to keep herself happy, out of love, even if in the end, it was a very pitiful and sad relationship. In that aspect, you can tell it is all about "happiness" rather then "magic".

Yeah this is the most probably version of the story. It is sad that Amakusa ultimately failed, though... however it seems undeniable that Ange died, and therefore Kasumi most probably managed to kill her.

I also had another but much darker extension of this theory: that Amakusa killed both of them, as he is after all, a mercenary hired by Okonogi. Of course, I really don't want to imagine this, but there is no guarantee or solid proof that Amakusa is "loyal" to Ange.
One might wonder: why didn't he kill her before? Well since Rokkenjima is a deserted island, it is the best place for this (and nothing prevent him to silence the Captain either), and it is killing 2 birds with 1 stone as Kasumi is killed in the process.

It might be the reason how Kasumi figured out where Ange was going, though she was shown powerful enough in her network that Amakusa doublecrossing isn't necessary.

I'm not so fond of this theory, considering how Okonogi and Amakusa were portrayed, but it IS possible.

Uhm you are right... I didn't notice it first... however this mean there are two people that can rightfully call themselves Ushiromiya Battler. Since Battler says in red "Im am Ushiromiya Battler", there is not such a thing as a real Battler and a fake Battler, they are both real. Now the question is Asumu's son is alive or died?

Yes, I actually use "REAL" for Asumu's Battler. Both are real, that is an undeniable fact.
As for Asumu's Battler, there is absolutely no information regarding him. We just can confirm he is roughly the same age (or it would make too much discrepancie for the other family members) and the same gender. That's all.

It is also very unlikely that you can see goat people and demons. However at this point we have no choice to accept that a lot of people either are all lying or hallucinating. The fact that they mistake a puppet for Shannon how is that different from the fact they've seen all those ridiculous things in episode4? You can't trust anything but the red truth
That's what Battler stated in red.
About Kyrie and the group it does make sense. One of the possible ways to explain all those strange things they have said by telephone is that they are forced to do so. So the culprit must be with them. The other theory is they are all acomplices... so it's only natural the mastermind was with them. However that doesn't explain why they died.

My other theory is: who said it was really Kyrie and Jessica through the phone...? Considering Battler saw "beatrice", we can confirm a woman among the 17 or an extra character is there, and so, with appropriate manipulation, can fool Battler with the phone.

That can turn the whole situation in a more ugly way, fufufu...

You are right, Kanon was killed in episode2 in Shannon's room. I had previously speculated that it was the real Kanon's death. However why Beatrice has problems to say that Kanon was killed in other instances? Anyway episode2 is the only case where Kanon's cause of death was clearly confirmed. Of course if in later episodes Kanon's death location or death cause change then the whole theory falls apart.

No, the cause of death wasn't even confirmed. "Kanon was killed in this room." (Jessica's room, not Shannon's).
For all we know:
Episode 1: Kanon is dead, it wasn't a suicide nor an accident. However, Beato didn't say it was an homicide. That doesn't mean it wasn't.
Episode 2: Kanon is dead, confirmed as "killed". No way to mistake it as "personality has been killed).
Episode 3: Kanon is dead, confirmed that Nanjo's autopsy for the first 6 is correct. These weren't suicide either. Considering the pattern, he is probably a victim, but it is either a bullet or a spear.
Episode 4: Kanon is dead, but no cause or corpse are available.

We can then speculate that Kanon found out something "really" dangerous or so in Episode 2 and 4. Something like this.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The whole "Battler had to determine the order" doesn't work at all, especially because of episode 4.
There is no way Battler could determine when Kinzo "died": he could even be dead before Kyrie's group, he just don't know anything after Jessica and George death in episode 4.

You misunderstand me. Battler never determines an order of killings (other than that he thinks Maria died well after Rosa, which seems reasonable since she was with him for a while). The record does. However, the record is not in strict conformity with the "magic" explanation of death orders, and it may have absolutely nothing to do with the "reality" order of death even slightly.

You're right that the order in which people die and the order of the record don't have to be the same, but you seem fixated on the notion that it doesn't matter. But I think it must matter, we just don't know why because Battler wasn't present for the gradual discovery of bodies this time. So how was the record established? Why is it in that order? Why have a game record at all given the unusual circumstances? It's got to mean something.

About Kyrie and the group it does make sense. One of the possible ways to explain all those strange things they have said by telephone is that they are forced to do so. So the culprit must be with them. The other theory is they are all acomplices... so it's only natural the mastermind was with them. However that doesn't explain why they died.

Multiple killers. Ep4 has a couple distinct MOs, just like the other episodes. Two or more killers/groups of killers working against each other. Whatever happened when "Kinzo" appeared could have been the catalyst that led to one saying "screw it" and attacking people right then and there. After the chaos, the other killer regrouped or something, and the two groups (if they were indeed groups) started whittling down the survivors. Obviously hard to explain without mutual deaths, but that's true of most episodes.

[WhiteFrost]

"To Battler, his sin is "abandoning his Ushiromiya name and causing trouble to his family". Beato claims that his sin has nothing to do with that, and Battler aruges that he doesn't have any sin towards Beatrice. Beatrice dodges the topic by replying that she wasn't around until 6 years ago, and had never met Battler until "now"." - Rias

So his sin has nothing to do with abandoning the Ushiromiya name. Then (crazy thought) Battler was responsible for creating a "Beatrice" for some reason or another, if you speculate that a "Beatrice" is not a person, but a "cause" that led to the death of the Ushiromiya household?


The Twilights:
As stated by Klashikari among others: doesn't the fact that Kinzo died before the game, but is still considered a twilight-victim mess up the victims time of death? @-@ sorry a bit confused about that...


"Beatrice could also be a natural disaster (hallucinogen volcanic gas?) but I still wonder if that can match with Eva-Beato's red truth. The natural disaster explains why there aren't seagulls and why the whole case has been labeled as incident in 1998." - Jan Poo

I remember people discussing the possibility about volcanic gas in earlier episodes, and recently I have been thinking about that, but as Jan-Poo says it might get smashed up by Eva-Beato's red truth.

[MeoTwister5]

I might just be missing a scene or a point but I'm in a bit of confusion...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

If I'm correct, the moment Ange interceded into October 1986 as per granting of power by Good Ol' Bern was when she jumped from the skyscraper during the Non-Human Tea Party scenes. After this, I assume she jumped to the end of episode 3 to stop Battler from getting tricked into accepting Beatrice, and then after joining them in the MetaWorld, joins with Bern to observe the fourth game of Rokkenjima to discover the truth.

However regarding the scene where it is revealed she survives a jump from a building the conversation goes as if nothing of the sort with Bern ever happened. From a linear perspective of progression if this is even the same building jump I'm seeing, wouldn't somehow follow that, if her experience in investigating Rokkenjima would have occurred strictly between the jump and hitting the ground, the conversation and her knowledge would have changed accordingly?

Or am I reading this wrong, that while Bern did give her the power to go back to 1986 it didn't happen that she went back in time in that moment, that she simply jumped and survived and would eventually go back to Rokkenjima on a later date?

I'm probably being idiotic about this, but when the scene ends in the third non0human tea party with their jump from the roof I sort of assumed they transported then and there to 1986, but it seems I'm sorely mistaken.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

My other theory is: who said it was really Kyrie and Jessica through the phone...? Considering Battler saw "beatrice", we can confirm a woman among the 17 or an extra character is there, and so, with appropriate manipulation, can fool Battler with the phone.

This is an interesting theory, however the idea that the culprit used a voice distortion device is something you see often in B movies but doesn't really work in the real world expecially in 1986. The idea that the culprit has a natural talent in imitating voices is a lot more plausible, although still improbable.

As stated by Klashikari among others: doesn't the fact that Kinzo died before the game, but is still considered a twilight-victim mess up the victims time of death? @-@ sorry a bit confused about that...

Imho yes, without a doubt. But that's not only that, there are too many things that do not make sense. For example the third twilight is being completely overlooked or different twilights are performed at the same time... or the order of the killings doesn't match with the staking that are obviously done after their deaths. The stakes aren't even in the right place in episode4.


Anyway at this point I can only assume that Battler being one of the last to die is not a mere coincidence. Battler seems to be the real objective of the culprit, and it also seems that the culprit wants Battler to acknowledge witches. Why is that? How is that related to his sin?

Another speculation. In ep3 thread someone imagined that the "1129" of the 07151129 is "11:29" supposedly Battler's time of birth.
Now we know that this is a PIN of a bank account. However it isn't uncommon for people to use real dates so they can remember them. Now let us assume this is indeed the day month hour and minute Battler Ushiromiya have born. Who is more likely to use this as a code? I can't think of anyone else except Battler's mother.
However... which Battler are we talking about?
If it's the Battler we know, then the one behind everything is an X person who happens to be Battler's real mother. However if it's the other Battler then the one we are talking about is Asumu... except she's supposed to be dead... but unless it is stated in red...

And by the way... Battler Ushiromiya has sinned... Battler Ushiromiya caused the deaths... okay... but has it ever been stated which Battler? So maybe the Battler we know didn't do a thing.