[Anime] Let's explore the plot holes! And clarify some things.

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

....
It is PERFECTLY okay for him to kill the chimera because he can say he was under the impression that the chimera was trying to hurt Al. The people who were around would'nt be able to dispute that because people can't read his mind. No one watching can say "oh he really DIDN'T believe that the chimera was going to attack Al"

And no, it is NOT okay to kill the brother of an alchemist for simply letting a chimera get inside the armor. Proper procedure would have involved -

1.) trying to negotiate a surrender of the Chimera with Al through a dialogue.
2.) trying to CAPTURE both Al and the Chimera.

Killing someone is a last resort.. ESPECIALLY when it comes to killing a 14 or 15 year old boy. If anyone was watching.... they would see Pride kill both of them without uttering a word.

Which is why it was smart to feign that he thought the Chimera was actually attacking Al... This way it was acceptable for him to kill the Chimera in broad daylight... without going through normal procedure.

And no, the Chimera wasn't attacking anyone when Pride killed him. It was sitting inside Al.

The issue isn't suspiciousness. The issue is an emergency situation. Fei-san was saying that people around would have reacted if they saw Martel get into Al. Seeing something like that wouldn't generate such an emergency response... especially as when the people watching could be on any of the multiple stories around... or watching through the windows on the first floor. Seeing something like this wouldn't necessarily make them all yell out and make their presence known.

Now listen to yourself... if you insist someone can be watching but not listening, let's call him General Bakamono.

General Bakamono walks along the corridor, he looks out and sees Alphonse standing in the square by himself.

General Bakamono: "What a fine day it is in this army base. Ahh it's that Elric younger brother. Fine young chap."

Enter Martel, running into the courtyard, standing in front of Al, without any threatening posture. Alphonse looks around, lifts his helmet, bends down and then Martel looks around and jumps in, twisting her body.

Invisible General Bakamono: "Ahh what a typical event. No need to get upset over a non-authorised personel running around, jumping into a suit of armor that removed its own helmet. Wait a minute.... Alphonse has no head? Oh well. It is perfectly normal. Oooo there's the Fuhrer taking his own sweet time walking in from the same direction that intruder was from. My, he has his sword out!"

Fuhrer slaughters Martel. Let's say he slaughter Al at the same time.

General Bakamono: "Oh my god! He killed Alphonse!"

Major Plot-holis-incrediblus: "You Bastard!"

General Bakamono: "Now where did that come from?"

General Bakamono runs to the Fuhrer who's now standing over the broken remains of Alphonse and Martel.

General Bakamono: "Why did you do that for, Sir?! He was an innocent lad just standing there, willingly hiding a strange intruder."

Fuhrer: "Alphonse Elric was hiding a fugitive who sought to kill me. It has been said that there were probable assassins. Killing them is the best message to send to these assassins of their ineptness and of the futility."

General Bakamono: "YOU MONSTER!!! You kill Alphonse who's hiding some strange intruder in this restricted military base next to the hostile city of Lior. You must pay for this l33t crime!"

Sounds a perfectly sound story according to your reasoning.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Basically Pride has two options condsidering the fact that he was out in broad daylight in the middle of a military base.

1.) Kill both Al and Martel. If someone witnesses him do this... he is in a crapload of trouble. Letting a chimera get inside the Armor isn't a valid excuse to kill both Al and Martel without even trying to negotiate or capture them.

2.) Kill Martel by feigning that he believe Martel was going to attack Al. In this case he can get away scot free with Martel's murder, even if someone happens to be a witness.

Option #2 is what he went with.. and that is a better choice than #1

He's Pride, the Fuhrer of the Army. So according to you, his position is not that secure such that any ambiguous doings he tries to cover up with his statements is readily disputed by anyone. Therefore letting Alphonse Elric go with the secret that he is a Homunculus to spread around is the best thing to do?

Or is it he is so well trusted that he can ignore the whole situation of Alphonse spreading lies around. Then why must he kill Martel? A chimera spreading lies around is not another big issue to him then right? If you are going to say Alphonse would introduce a big nay against him, then why did he let Alphonse live?! After he is so well trusted, he can make up those excuses.

Both possible scenarios already readily illustrate the whole flawed logic in letting Alphonse live in that situation.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

.... Um.. I dont think thats relevant. We are discussing Pride's actions. The issue is whether PRIDE was sure that no one would see him. Martel and Al looking around to make sure no one is around tells us nothing about whether PRIDE was certain that there was no one watching.

Pride can only kill the two of them together if he himself is absolutely sure no one is watching him.... I've watched episode 40 again.. and its practically IMPOSSIBLE to tell if anyone is watching. The buildings around them are multi-storied.. and very poorly lit due to the shodows. There are many many windows behind the Fuhrer. (21:35) Any one of these windows could have people in it. And if they see whats going on... the game is up.

As I've said above, the issue isn't whether anyone else is around. The issue is whether PRIDE is sure in his mind that no one else is around. Something clearly impossible to do when they are enclosed by a multiple storied buildings and windows. As I address with "walking after Martel" issue when I see more of Pride's abilities.

Alphonse and Martel's actions show that they are concerned with who's going to see them. Why bother to check around if they do not care. They see nobody or are you going to say nobody was in that scene but suddenly they pop out of nowhere when Pride enters the scene? (Congratulations, you introduced a new plothole to cover a plothole). Fuhrer knows Martel is in Alphonse somehow without prior knowledge, implying special senses of life. Fuhrer knows nobody is around.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

This is not directly related to the issue at hand. I do not know enough about Pride's abilities to determine whether he was even fast enough to go after Martel and catch her when she is running away at full speed. I will address this later when I've seen the rest of the anime.. and more of Pride's abilities and speed.
Please do not spoil anything if you've read the manga..

Manga? What does the manga have to do with this?
Let me guess, running is a special ability limited to only certain people. Pride is a Homunculus that cannot run and can only slowly walk. Guess we have to have the anime show us him running to confirm that he can run, people. I believe you now.

Sloth
To Sonhex and jonli,
I agree, the issues regarding Sloth are simply bad character design by the anime crew. Somehow they made Sloth into a Homunculus supposedly derived from Trisha Elric. Then they gave her a power that did not fit well with the theme of the anime Homunculus. It is logical but just seemed odd. The same with the Sloth-Winry-Sheska in the tunnel scene. Of all the places (a telephone switchbox would not be placed there in the first place), of all the times (Sloth met the Elrics quite a lot of times. Seeing Edward's adorable face and hearing his name brandished across so many times did nothing, but "You're his mother" by a young girl not related to her does the trick.), that had to happen (Sloth is too slow to catch two crawling young girls just a few meters in front of her. But she is too quick for a veteran mercenary alchemist to defend against).

Bradley's Age
To Zauren, I would like to know where the "perfect humans with no souls" comes from in the anime. Perhaps I missed it in watching.

Even so, the meaning of death is the death of our cells. Being the perfect humans could also mean the prevention of death of our cells. Wouldn't a perfect human be totally ageless?

Face it the Homunculi are not exactly normal humans, unless you mean being normal human is having those weird abilities.

[hooliganj]

Yebyosh, it's a great show and all, but you have far too much time on your hands.

When the episode ended on the cliffhanger with Martel getting stabbed, I was able to figure out quite a bit. First, Al would be spared. There would be no reason to kill off one character and then finish another a few seconds later, but split them between episodes. That would be bad drama. Once I reached that conclusion, the question was why he lets Al go.

Noone was around to see it. I have no reason to believe that the 'Ultimate Eye' would fail to realize that. Also, no one is supposed to know about Al's hollowness. Even if a witness missed seeing Martel but saw what happened after, they would still think that the Fuhrer stabbed somebody, but there was no reaction. Even a loyal minion would come to clean up the mess. So, no witnesses.

Presentation aside, Martel told Al about Bradley's identity, and Al probably saw the eye. Why let the guy go when he holds such a dangerous secret? It must be part of the plan. For some reason Pride wants Al, and by extension Ed, to know what's up. I have two theories as to why, but can't prove it either way. First, the mysterious master wants Ed and Al to be the ones to finish the philosopher's stone. Scaring Al at this point galvanizes him into action, and gets him to enter the city, placing him exactly where he needs to be. Second possibility, and for some reason I like this one, is that Pride, like Lust, is not entirely behind the current plan, and has some ideas of his own. I'm not sure what killing Martel does for him, but leaving Al alive for the moment may have been part of a bigger play that he was planning, or might still try to make.

I'll try coming back after getting some sleep to see if this is even halfway coherent. Heck, I may even try to tackle the other plotholes on the list. For Bradley, at least, try to project his story forward, instead of back, and his position makes a bit more sense.

Note: I've never read the manga, since I wanted to avoid spoilers. Seems like it would just be confusing anyway. I'll have to look it up once the show ends, since it sounds like I won't be getting quite the same story.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Now listen to yourself... if you insist someone can be watching but not listening, let's call him General Bakamono.

General Bakamono walks along the corridor, he looks out and sees Alphonse standing in the square by himself.

General Bakamono: "What a fine day it is in this army base. Ahh it's that Elric younger brother. Fine young chap."

Enter Martel, running into the courtyard, standing in front of Al, without any threatening posture. Alphonse looks around, lifts his helmet, bends down and then Martel looks around and jumps in, twisting her body.

Invisible General Bakamono: "Ahh what a typical event. No need to get upset over a non-authorised personel running around, jumping into a suit of armor that removed its own helmet. Wait a minute.... Alphonse has no head? Oh well. It is perfectly normal. Oooo there's the Fuhrer taking his own sweet time walking in from the same direction that intruder was from. My, he has his sword out!"

Fuhrer slaughters Martel. Let's say he slaughter Al at the same time.

General Bakamono: "Oh my god! He killed Alphonse!"

Major Plot-holis-incrediblus: "You Bastard!"

General Bakamono: "Now where did that come from?"

General Bakamono runs to the Fuhrer who's now standing over the broken remains of Alphonse and Martel.

General Bakamono: "Why did you do that for, Sir?! He was an innocent lad just standing there, willingly hiding a strange intruder."

Fuhrer: "Alphonse Elric was hiding a fugitive who sought to kill me. It has been said that there were probable assassins. Killing them is the best message to send to these assassins of their ineptness and of the futility."

General Bakamono: "YOU MONSTER!!! You kill Alphonse who's hiding some strange intruder in this restricted military base next to the hostile city of Lior. You must pay for this l33t crime!"

Sounds a perfectly sound story according to your reasoning.

Of course!! The person watching would easily be able to tell that he just killed Alphonse and Martel without saying a single word to them. No attempt at negotiating the situation... no attempt to capture both Al... just straight killing.
There is almost NOTHING more suspicious Pride could do than killing a teenager in cold blood.

This is the logical equivalent of a wanted criminal entering the home of a 15 year old boy... and the police coming in and shooting both of them without any attempt to diffuse the situation.

He's Pride, the Fuhrer of the Army. So according to you, his position is not that secure such that any ambiguous doings he tries to cover up with his statements is readily disputed by anyone. Therefore letting Alphonse Elric go with the secret that he is a Homunculus to spread around is the best thing to do?

What ambiguity? Anyone watching from one of the windows would be able to tell that Pride killed a 15 year old child who was standing still in cold blood. There is nothing "ambiguous" about this... it is straight murder.

Letting Alphonse go for now is not only the smart choice.. but its the ONLY choice he has given the fact that he's not in an area he knows to be secluded. Letting Al go is dangerous... but killing him out in the open is even more dangerous.

Alphonse and Martel's actions show that they are concerned with who's going to see them. Why bother to check around if they do not care. They see nobody or are you going to say nobody was in that scene but suddenly they pop out of nowhere when Pride enters the scene? (Congratulations, you introduced a new plothole to cover a plothole). Fuhrer knows Martel is in Alphonse somehow without prior knowledge, implying special senses of life. Fuhrer knows nobody is around.

Of course they care about no one seeing Martel... she is on a military base without permission. That is why Al immediately tells her to get into the armor. They do not have the chance to look around. At 21:03 Al looks around in 2 or three directions (not everywhere) because he hears approaching footsteps of Martel running. When they being talking Al looks around in a couple of directions again (but again, not everywhere) Sensing the urgency in Martel's tone, he tells her to get inside. Martel looks (not around) but back at the direction at which Pride should be coming. They do not have the chance to make sure everyone is around... its impossible since the buildings around them are too big.

And no.. based on the given information, we cannot immediately conclude Pride has special abilities to find life. He could've easily just HEARD noises from inside Al... when Martel was telling Al Pride is a homunculus.

Manga? What does the manga have to do with this?
Let me guess, running is a special ability limited to only certain people. Pride is a Homunculus that cannot run and can only slowly walk. Guess we have to have the anime show us him running to confirm that he can run, people. I believe you now.

... you guess wrong. If Pride doesn't have the speed to catch Martel when she is at a full run... then there would be no sense in running after Martel. He could simply be waiting for the guards at the base exit to catch Martel.

Since we never see how fast Pride can run in the anime... I told you to not use facts from the manga to say "oh in the manga pride runs a lot faster than Martel can"... etc etc.

I would'nt have had to say it if you followed the rules of the forum. In your very first post in this thread you made a statement about the Manga Kimblee.... when the forum rules specifically state that threads labeled [anime] should "strictly be limited to anime discussions".

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Of course!! The person watching would easily be able to tell that he just killed Alphonse and Martel without saying a single word to them. No attempt at negotiating the situation... no attempt to capture both Al... just straight killing. There is almost NOTHING more suspicious Pride could do than killing a teenager in cold blood.

As compared to official reports of Juliet Douglas killing an unarmed Ishuvaru kid in cold blood? (Hey, it's the truth right?) As opposed to the cold iron handed manner in the way the military is run under Basque Grand whose actions are endorsed by the Fuhrer before his death? You seem to think that the Amestris military is some benign organisation that goes around helping old ladies cross the streets in Lior. It is not. What isn't suspicious about killing an assassin and his accomplice? If an assassin is dangerous, who are you to demand that the visible accomplice in company of the assassin is of no danger to the wrathful victim?

Originally Posted by avmoghe

This is the logical equivalent of a wanted criminal entering the home of a 15 year old boy... and the police coming in and shooting both of them without any attempt to diffuse the situation.

What ambiguity? Anyone watching from one of the windows would be able to tell that Pride killed a 15 year old child who was standing still in cold blood. There is nothing "ambiguous" about this... it is straight murder.

Nope, your anology is flawed. This is the situation where a fella with a gun after firing at the ruthless dictator (shall we invoke the name of Saddam ), runs off. A car drives up to him with the door open and the driver says "Get in, mack". Now the dictator is going to go up to the car and nicely knock on the door to ask them to come down in the name of peace and justice?

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Letting Alphonse go for now is not only the smart choice.. but its the ONLY choice he has given the fact that he's not in an area he knows to be secluded. Letting Al go is dangerous... but killing him out in the open is even more dangerous.

No, the fact is Alphonse is a danger irregardless of which choice. The question you posed, "Why can't the Fuhrer kill Alphonse?". Your assumption is this puts Fuhrer under suspicion. Under suspicion of what? Of killing an accomplice of an assassin? Whose word is more powerful against the absolute dictator, the Fuher? If the word of the Fuhrer is not that strong, why should he even provoke an incident by killing Martel? If he killed Martel because of the information, why not Alphonse as well?

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Of course they care about no one seeing Martel... she is on a military base without permission. That is why Al immediately tells her to get into the armor. They do not have the chance to look around. At 21:03 Al looks around in 2 or three directions (not everywhere) because he hears approaching footsteps of Martel running. When they being talking Al looks around in a couple of directions again (but again, not everywhere) Sensing the urgency in Martel's tone, he tells her to get inside. Martel looks (not around) but back at the direction at which Pride should be coming. They do not have the chance to make sure everyone is around... its impossible since the buildings around them are too big.

No... Al's first reaction (looking around) is to see if Martel is in the area. Remember that he is searching for Martel everywhere (19:00 illustrates this). So do you think someone on entering an area to search for someone is to look straight ahead and walk on? Al enters the courtyard, looks around to find Martel. But at this time, Martel suddenly runs into view. Alphonse's head looking around motion is to look around the courtyard for any person and he did it twice.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

And no.. based on the given information, we cannot immediately conclude Pride has special abilities to find life. He could've easily just HEARD noises from inside Al... when Martel was telling Al Pride is a homunculus.

Agreeable as the 'life-sensing' was just a postulation. However by you saying by 'hearing' noises, you have agreed to the Fuhrer having a very sensitive ear (he was quite far from Alphonse to hear any talk), meaning like I already stated previously, he could have heard anyone else for quite a distance around.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

... you guess wrong. If Pride doesn't have the speed to catch Martel when she is at a full run... then there would be no sense in running after Martel. He could simply be waiting for the guards at the base exit to catch Martel.

Since we never see how fast Pride can run in the anime... I told you to not use facts from the manga to say "oh in the manga pride runs a lot faster than Martel can"... etc etc.

Running is running. If your prey is running and you want to keep track of it, you will slowly walk to keep it in sight?

Caught by the guards? Martel running around in a base where she has remained hidden for quite a while (and in fact drops in on the Fuhrer where no one suspects) and you expect the Fuhrer to believe that she can be easily caught because she runs into one of the guards? If he wants her to be caught by the guards, then why didn't he run and shout out for the guards? What if Martel catches the guards in surprise, slaughter them and escape through the gates?

If he wants to 'wait', why don't he go off to the Security Room and put the base on Full Alert. Instead your theory states the Fuhrer is going to slowly walk out with no idea of where the assassin went and ask "Say anyone caught that fella running out here?" Any casual passerby: "Huh, who you talking about, Sir?" If you say he has to follow her, why is he walking?

Wow, this Fuhrer must indeed be the dumbest one ever.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

I would'nt have had to say it if you followed the rules of the forum. In your very first post in this thread you made a statement about the Manga Kimblee.... when the forum rules specifically state that threads labeled [anime] should "strictly be limited to anime discussions".

Hello.... I did not reveal any capabilities of manga Kimblee to use to discuss the validity of the anime Kimblee. I used it as a comment as "who knows whether the manga creator would have the same thought". Did any part of what I said about Kimblee imply "this is the way the manga did it, so the anime Kimblee should be doing it like this as well".

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Yebyosh, it's a great show and all, but you have far too much time on your hands.

, yep I certainly have far too much time on my hands for this. Part of the problem of waiting for the PC to finish processing a task for hours and pondering what to do while stuck here.

Originally Posted by hooligani

Presentation aside, Martel told Al about Bradley's identity, and Al probably saw the eye. Why let the guy go when he holds such a dangerous secret? It must be part of the plan. For some reason Pride wants Al, and by extension Ed, to know what's up. I have two theories as to why, but can't prove it either way. First, the mysterious master wants Ed and Al to be the ones to finish the philosopher's stone. Scaring Al at this point galvanizes him into action, and gets him to enter the city, placing him exactly where he needs to be. Second possibility, and for some reason I like this one, is that Pride, like Lust, is not entirely behind the current plan, and has some ideas of his own. I'm not sure what killing Martel does for him, but leaving Al alive for the moment may have been part of a bigger play that he was planning, or might still try to make.

Episode 44 confirms that Alphonse saw the Ultimate Eye. The proposal that it was an audacious plan/requisite for Alphonse to be kept alive is possible. However...
Episode 36 had Sloth giving Lust and Gluttony the authority to kill the Elrics if they gain access to information that would prevent them from making the Philosopher's Stone. This suggest that the Elrics are not 'inexpendable' and that the possibility of knowing that the Fuhrer is a Homunculus might throw the Elrics off the Homunculi's intended path for them. So Pride is free at will to kill off the Elrics. Episode 41 had Pride telling Lust and Gluttony that 'that person' wanted Scar to make the Stone instead. This therefore means that the brothers were already by then (in fact at the point of episode 36) totally 'expendable'. It is also by accident that Alphonse was made as the Stone by the intent of Scar and not by manipulation of anyone else.

There are some other stuff from episode 44 that changes a few things about what I said or gives an explanation. However I'll not put them in here (besides the above on Alphonse which is inconsequential) till a few days later so that it will not be too spoilerful by then... Plus the fact that it takes several minutes to load one page here... *grrr*

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

As compared to official reports of Juliet Douglas killing an unarmed Ishuvaru kid in cold blood? (Hey, it's the truth right?) As opposed to the cold iron handed manner in the way the military is run under Basque Grand whose actions are endorsed by the Fuhrer before his death? You seem to think that the Amestris military is some benign organisation that goes around helping old ladies cross the streets in Lior. It is not. What isn't suspicious about killing an assassin and his accomplice? If an assassin is dangerous, who are you to demand that the visible accomplice in company of the assassin is of no danger to the wrathful victim?

Juliet Douglas and Basque Gran have absolutely nothing to do with this. We are debating one thing - whether it is acceptable for the Fuhrer of a military to recklessly kill a 15 year old child out in the open, in the middle of a military base. The question is "will killing Al without any attempt at negotiatians, or capture get overlooked"?

The answer is obviously a 'yes'. If someone with the moral characters of Mustang, his group, Armstrong, or Ed witness this act, the Fuhrer is in deep crap. The military may not have people who help ladies cross streets, but it does have many people who do not take kindly to unnecessary killing of boys. It is these very people that Pride cannot risk being seen by.

Nope, your anology is flawed. This is the situation where a fella with a gun after firing at the ruthless dictator (shall we invoke the name of Saddam ), runs off. A car drives up to him with the door open and the driver says "Get in, mack". Now the dictator is going to go up to the car and nicely knock on the door to ask them to come down in the name of peace and justice?

.... This analogy is even more off the mark... the fuhrer isn't supposed to be some "ruthless dictator" who murders civilians for no reason. The situation is more along the lines of when the assasin gets shielded by a 15 year old kid.... What should the the person who was attacked do? Then yes, the person should 1.) ask the kid to move aside, 2.) Try and capture both of them alive. Killing both is a last resort.

No, the fact is Alphonse is a danger irregardless of which choice. The question you posed, "Why can't the Fuhrer kill Alphonse?". Your assumption is this puts Fuhrer under suspicion. Under suspicion of what? Of killing an accomplice of an assassin? Whose word is more powerful against the absolute dictator, the Fuher? If the word of the Fuhrer is not that strong, why should he even provoke an incident by killing Martel? If he killed Martel because of the information, why not Alphonse as well?

Suspicion of killing when there is no need to kill. Suspicion of killing without trying to diffuse the hostile situation without loss of life. There was no need to kill Al along with Martel. He was able to kill Martel by feigning that he thought she was going to hurt Al. But he can't kill Al through that method. This provokes no incident because he can claim he was acting out of concern for Al's life. But killing BOTH Al and Ed without trying to negotiate or save the young boy.. that can definitely cause an incident. If they were in a secluded place, then yes... he would've killed Al as well. As I said before.... its either kill Martel and provoke no incident... or kill them both and risk being seen by the people in the base.

No... Al's first reaction (looking around) is to see if Martel is in the area. Remember that he is searching for Martel everywhere (19:00 illustrates this). So do you think someone on entering an area to search for someone is to look straight ahead and walk on? Al enters the courtyard, looks around to find Martel. But at this time, Martel suddenly runs into view. Alphonse's head looking around motion is to look around the courtyard for any person and he did it twice.

..... this doesn't show that Al and Martel were certain no one could have watched them through the windows or the higher stories of the building... nor does it show that Pride knew that no one was watching him (which is the more important question).

Agreeable as the 'life-sensing' was just a postulation. However by you saying by 'hearing' noises, you have agreed to the Fuhrer having a very sensitive ear (he was quite far from Alphonse to hear any talk), meaning like I already stated previously, he could have heard anyone else for quite a distance around.

Running is running. If your prey is running and you want to keep track of it, you will slowly walk to keep it in sight?

sensitive ear? It was an open courtyard with no other loud noises in the background. Look at 3:00 in episode 41.. he is a mere 5 or 6 feet away when Martel says the word "homunculus". Based on just that information, I dont think there is any reason to think that Pride has any special ears.

Caught by the guards? Martel running around in a base where she has remained hidden for quite a while (and in fact drops in on the Fuhrer where no one suspects) and you expect the Fuhrer to believe that she can be easily caught because she runs into one of the guards? If he wants her to be caught by the guards, then why didn't he run and shout out for the guards? What if Martel catches the guards in surprise, slaughter them and escape through the gates?

.. Why should he run and shout for the guards... its not like a running person is very hard to see. He could very well expect the guards to capture a running chimera who is out in the open.. they are his own guards!

If he wants to 'wait', why don't he go off to the Security Room and put the base on Full Alert. Instead your theory states the Fuhrer is going to slowly walk out with no idea of where the assassin went and ask "Say anyone caught that fella running out here?" Any casual passerby: "Huh, who you talking about, Sir?" If you say he has to follow her, why is he walking?

Wow, this Fuhrer must indeed be the dumbest one ever.

No need to do it. If he expects his guards at the exit to catch her.. then he's heading in the right direction... toward the exit. He can personally attend to what's done with her.

Hello.... I did not reveal any capabilities of manga Kimblee to use to discuss the validity of the anime Kimblee. I used it as a comment as "who knows whether the manga creator would have the same thought". Did any part of what I said about Kimblee imply "this is the way the manga did it, so the anime Kimblee should be doing it like this as well".

It doesn't matter whether you revealed any of the capabilities of the manga Kimbley. You are speaking about what has or has not been shown in the manga.... which is not allowed in and thread labeled [anime] since discussions are "strictly limited to the anime". My statement was put there to ask you to make sure you dont reveal anything with regards to Pride. I can only ask you not to post something BEFORE you post it. After.. its too late. Either way.. my statment was nothing more than a mere preventive measure

[Subaru-kun]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

the fuhrer isn't supposed to be some "ruthless dictator"

I don't intend to look like an ass, however... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=f%FChrer

[Zauren]

I'm inclined to side with Yebyosh over this one, his nitpickiness about plot holes aside Bones has shown in this anime to do things for the purpose of drama that offsets realism unless you think hard enough to injure yourself. Martel's death was beautiful, the assault well-done, and it was a powerful moment. I don't think many would deny that while it was being seen, and it's only in retrospect that holes fill.

For an example of what I mean, that would fit this perfectly, is Episode 35, where the searching fiance turns to stone after clinging to the petrified form of her lover. Why did she not die with the rest when the stone broke that supressed the disease? Why did she not instead survive? Was it a slow process when she entered the city again -- she was crawling stiffly, after all? It was powerful, yes, but doesn't hold up under observation despite some hints or heresay that might make or break it more

. There's a few other things of this caliber, but in the end it doesn't matter too much. I liked it, despite throwing basketballs through holes I was happy to ignore. A movie that seems to echo FMA for me right now is Face/Off. I liked it a lot, but it hurts to think back on what really happened.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Subaru-kun

I don't intend to look like an ass, however... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=f%FChrer

.. I am talking about the person in the FMA universe who is serving as the Fuhrer. He doesn't go around killing 15 year old boys for no reason whatsoever... which is what Yebosh and I are discussing. The discussion is about whether Pride killing Al without attempting to negotiate, or capture him would arouse suspicion in any possible onlookers.

[Zauren]

Admittedly, I saw nothing wrong with the scene when it was done, or when the revelation was done by Martel in Al. It seemed very fitting with everything Pride had done up to that point (And subtle things in his character before), from deflecting, to dodging, to even not attacking just to mock her with the fact he was a Homunculus -- he was fast enough to flit before her in a heartbeat. I am with Sonhex, really. He just doesn't care. I bet he believes he could kill Ed and Al at any time, and they are no use in making the stone, so why do anything? He's obviously faster then Scar by a wide margin, and Scar was able to beat the crap out of Ed before, and only lost due to his trick in their last fight -- Scar technically could of killed him/blew off limbs a good three times there...

[hooliganj]

Bones has shown in this anime to do things for the purpose of drama that offsets realism unless you think hard enough to injure yourself. Martel's death was beautiful, the assault well-done, and it was a powerful moment. I don't think many would deny that while it was being seen, and it's only in retrospect that holes fill.

I completely agree, which is why I won't try to go after the other plot holes right now. As of this posting, I haven't seen 44 yet, and I'm still very much looking forward to seeing how it all ends. FMA is on my short list of shows with a plot I can really respect, since it has managed to lay down all the evidence right in front of me and still pull a fast one with a new twist or direction. Great stuff.

A movie that seems to echo FMA for me right now is Face/Off. I liked it a lot, but it hurts to think back on what really happened.

Heh... my favorite plot hole ever. The two guys spend the entire movie with surgically swapped faces, and in the end they're identified correctly because they have incompatible blood types. I was shaking my head as I left the theater at all the lazy, lazy writers in the world. But the movie was fun, classic John Woo.

[Yebyosh]

Case 00-1-00 - Fuhrer King Bradley vs the State

To avmoghe:

Re-reading all the posts has illuminated one detail. All of your case ignores the pertinent characteristics of the involved individuals and instead applies the same moral code to the whole world.

The hypothesis under dispute: The Fuhrer/President King Bradley would kill Alphonse Elric. Supporting elements are the discovery of his secret by the chimera Martel, Martel's undeniable direct partnership with Alphonse Elric and the position and power base of King Bradley.

Your whole case against the Fuhrer doing that is simply based on your moral assumption that he won't/cannot/must not do it because he had to be a good guy, whether it be compulsion to act based on the situation or socialogical purposes.

Sorry, unless you are able to prove that the army of Amestris is respected by all as a army of kindness and benevolency. You are dead wrong. The army is the representative of the government which points directly to King Bradley. The government of Amestris is an absolute dictatorship. Amestris = King Bradley.

If this government is dearly loved by all, there would not be cases of dissent in the Eastern Sector and Southern Sector as well. Yous Well spits on the ranks of the army. Ishuvaru and Lior suffers under the feet of the military. The dissentful elements in the Eastern and Southern Sector stands ready with the words of "military lapdogs" on their lips.

To claim that the Fuher is a man of benevolence and kindness (or have to act as one) is a mistaken assumption. Does the action of ordering and approving the State Alchemists to move out onto Ishuvaru and use Proto-Stones to flatten it in one day bespeak the actions of your 'moral' leader? Does the action of indiscriminate indisciplined slaughter of Lior (and Ishuvaru) fit the army that such a leader would shape?

The army is no better in itself. If there was a moral element that had a heavy influence, why did Roy Mustang had to do things on his own? Was there ever a display of moral backbone in the army other than Mustang's Scooby gang that suggest otherwise? Instead we get sycophants fawning over the Fuhrer's every word in the higher echelons (General Hakuro) or men with the ruthless methodology of the Fuhrer (General Basque Gran). Did any men raise any hue or cry over the deaths of the children and women of Lior and Ishuvaru? No.

Do the soldiers have that kind of morals? Look at the actions in Ishuvaru and Lior. They bespeak that the soldiers are just plain normal folks or beasts. They don't care about morals. They are only concerned with survival to go home to their families (for the normal folks) or more for sadistic joy and pleasure (the beasts). They did not oppose the policies of the Fuhrer. In fact, they accepted the Fuhrer's policies totally. If any protest were made, they dismiss it themselves on hearing the authorities to tell them to do so.

To claim that they will rise up and go against the Fuher is unrealistic in light of the anime's progression. None of the actions committed in the Ishuvaru and Lior Suppressions that would be considered "immoral" by your code have been duly brought up in the Courts of Law and punished (*fondly remembers that "Should Roy Mustang be a war criminal?" thread *) The only prominent military personel that have been brought into military court is Kimblee, whose charge was that he blew up his fellow soldiers, not that he committed immoral acts of wanton destruction (which was actually encouraged, but killing the army people? No, no).

But guess what? Kimblee was brought back into the army, no questions asked and readily accepted by all when introduced to them. All on the approval of the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer's word is absolute in the army and have you seen anyone standing up readily to the Fuhrer to protest against the decision to suppress Lior or send in the State Alchemists on Ishuvaru? Nope again.

Can you prove that there is any moral element in the army (aside from Mustang's little Scooby gang, and yes that includes Armstrong) that has been a counterpart to the Fuhrer that could impede/disrupt his rule?

So to go on your account and believe that the Fuhrer must have the 'moral restriction' imposed on him not to kill the accomplice of an assassin is simply too unrealistic.

[_Sin_]

Without reading the last 10-15 posts that's what popped into my mind:

Re: Führer

Couldn't it be that Pride assumed the role as Führer just sometime before the Ishbal incident? This would eliminate the "how did he get into the military as an old geezer". Then again, this works only if he can change appearences like Envy (is that an Envy only trait?).

Re: Al's blood seal

Actually, this is kinda off topic but has anyone else wondered that Sloth - their Sin and their "Mother" - is the most dangerous for Al since she can turn into water? I can so imagine that to happen (Sloth nearly killing Al and of course the heavy emotinal scenes that come with it ^_^'')

Then again, Roy and Gang could just be misinformed about Al's blood seal, who knows?

This time posted in the real thread...

[Akichan]

Re: Al's Seal

Spoiler:

I think because of his new...state as the Philosopher's Stone, his seal is somehow protected, as 44 has shown us he can swim.

[avmoghe]

To Yebosh -

It is, quite frankly, not up to me to PROVE that there is indeed a supporting moral element in the Military aside from the Mustang gang. Their existence, in itself, is enough to show that there is a strong possiblility of people in the military who would not take kindly to the needless killing of a fifteen year old child. The vast majority of the characters in the military that we are introduced to in some detail (the Mustang gang, Armstrong, Ross, the other guy with Ross, Marco do seem to have reasonable morals.
On the other side, we are introduced to six characters in the military who we would see as "evil" (Basque Gran, Kimblee, Douglas, Archer, Tuckerand the Fuhrer). These are indeed people, (or they seem like) people who wouldn't have a problem with the Fuhrer killing a child needlessly.

However, the very fact that the first category outnumbers the second is enough to suggest the strong possibility (not prove, which isn't up to me to do) that there exist others in the military who would not take kindly to the Fuhrer killing Al needlessly. In simple terms, if the majority of the characters in the military that we are introduced to in some depth do seem to have decent moral character, then that, by itself, is enough to suggest that a significant portion of the rest of the military does as well.

Now, what you're attempting to do is use the incident of Ishbal to illustrate that almost the entire military wouldn't have a problem with the Fuhrer killing Al.

What happened in Ishbal is a completely different scenario from the one we are talking about. Ishbal was a long and hard military conflict... both sides took heavy losses, and the Ishbal people had plenty of time to stand down. The military repeatedly fought them.. WITHOUT Alchemists. The Alchemists who were brought down to fight were a last resort.

If the military had INITIATED the attack with Alchemists WITHOUT letting the Ishbal people surrender... THEN you have a case.

Same case with Lior. Do you see the Alchemists blasting Lior from the get-go? No. they look for Scar, and even offer to let everyone go if they give up the wanted criminal. Again, here too, the military atleast has the OUTWARD appearance of not wanting to kill needlessly.

This is in stark contrast to the situation with Al. If Al had been killed WITHOUT ever being given a chance to surrender... or negotiated with.. and someone with decent morals had seen this, they would immediately have been suspicious.


In both the Ishbal and the Lior cases... the military DOES give the opposition the chance to surrender. It doesn't go in and ask Mustang to fry everyone with a little flick when there is no need to kill.

No doubt there are some morally lacking individuals in the military.... but there are also those who DO NOT kill without need. As we have seen of the characters to whom we are introduced..... the latter outnumber the former. By itself, this gives me a strong reason to believe that there exist a significant number of people who would've frowned at the Fuhrer, the symbol of the military, killing a fifteen year old without need.

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

It is, quite frankly, not up to me to PROVE that there is indeed a supporting moral element in the Military aside from the Mustang gang. Their existence, in itself, is enough to show that there is a strong possiblility of people in the military who would not take kindly to the needless killing of a fifteen year old child. The vast majority of the characters in the military that we are introduced to in some detail (the Mustang gang, Armstrong, Ross, the other guy with Ross, Marco do seem to have reasonable morals.
On the other side, we are introduced to six characters in the military who we would see as "evil" (Basque Gran, Kimblee, Douglas, Archer, Tuckerand the Fuhrer). These are indeed people, (or they seem like) people who wouldn't have a problem with the Fuhrer killing a child needlessly.

We are dealing with a heroic anime series. The 'so-called majority' you are talking about are the protaganists. They would be given greater show time. Look at the power bases of the people you are talking about, who in the right mind would think a Colonel has the power to challenge the Fuhrer in an instant? Is there an influential General or several Generals willing to take up the cause of Mustang? No.

That is why Mustang had his aim on being Fuhrer. He knows that the corruption must be stopped but he saw no plain and easy way to stem it. He saw no support he can rely on. There is no one other than his small-rank allies that will stand with him on the moral grounds. Do you think Mustang had his aim on becoming on Fuhrer just for power? He had that aim because that is the only outcome that will have a fair chance to change the army to one that is more moral on their perception. Considering that Mustang and Hughes are the ones that conceived and propogate this plan, it follows that the views of these two intelligent and perceptive men are accurate in that no one else in the military can help them to achieve this. That no one of power could support them in this endeavour. If there was your so-called people of moral there, why didn't Mustang go to them?

If you can claim that others will rally immediatedly to his cause, why hasn't he gained a substantial following other than his Snoopy gang? Surely a General of your 'moral' would have helped them much better than him scheming and plotting like the rest of the army to rise further up the ranks. Why isn't some higher power taking up a moral cause or are they all blind and only Mustang is the one seeing things clearly? No. Everyone is clear on the issues surrounding the military, soldiers or citizens. Your own personal perceptions is again clouding your judgement here. You still need to prove that there is a 'moral' majority that is willing to act.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Now, what you're attempting to do is use the incident of Ishbal to illustrate that almost the entire military wouldn't have a problem with the Fuhrer killing Al.

What happened in Ishbal is a completely different scenario from the one we are talking about. Ishbal was a long and hard military conflict... both sides took heavy losses, and the Ishbal people had plenty of time to stand down. The military repeatedly fought them.. WITHOUT Alchemists. The Alchemists who were brought down to fight were a last resort.

If the military had INITIATED the attack with Alchemists WITHOUT letting the Ishbal people surrender... THEN you have a case.

The Ishvaru war was not solely on just the Alchemists. The military actions without the Alchemists were already deplorable, in case you have forgotten about the scene with Leo, Rick and their mother, where the implication is that the army would go into houses and kill unarmed inhabitants.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Same case with Lior. Do you see the Alchemists blasting Lior from the get-go? No. they look for Scar, and even offer to let everyone go if they give up the wanted criminal. Again, here too, the military atleast has the OUTWARD appearance of not wanting to kill needlessly.

So the military wasn't involved in the Lior scene since before Scar got there? Geee... I guess all those ruined buildings and Rose's trauma must be some imaginary scene then... Not to forget the suppression of two rioting sides (Church & disappointed believers) by use of firearms...

Originally Posted by avmoghe

This is in stark contrast to the situation with Al. If Al had been killed WITHOUT ever being given a chance to surrender... or negotiated with.. and someone with decent morals had seen this, they would immediately have been suspicious.

Again your notion of imposing your moral standards upon a different class of people and expecting them to adhere to it surfaces here. Again have you proven any such people outside of Mustang's little clique existed? No.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

In both the Ishbal and the Lior cases... the military DOES give the opposition the chance to surrender. It doesn't go in and ask Mustang to fry everyone with a little flick when there is no need to kill.

Mustang is the one commanding the force to suppress the Ishuvaruns in the current time. He is one of the very few with the morals. This does not bode any support for your cause since we are talking about the majority of the army, the ones outside of Mustang's little gang.

Where was the opportunity to surrender in the Ishuvaru war itself? Lior?

Your line of thought has already impressed upon me that you have a concept of morality that you must impose upon others. No doubt Saddam Hussein in your eyes was a man that had to follow moral constraints because otherwise his peers/subjects/citizens would comdemn him for it and overthrow him.

Your whole argument on this issue again only stems from an insistence on there being a 'moral' side in the army that doesn't exist at all.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

We are dealing with a heroic anime series. The 'so-called majority' you are talking about are the protaganists. They would be given greater show time. Look at the power bases of the people you are talking about, who in the right mind would think a Colonel has the power to challenge the Fuhrer in an instant? Is there an influential General or several Generals willing to take up the cause of Mustang? No.

That is why Mustang had his aim on being Fuhrer. He knows that the corruption must be stopped but he saw no plain and easy way to stem it. He saw no support he can rely on. There is no one other than his small-rank allies that will stand with him on the moral grounds. Do you think Mustang had his aim on becoming on Fuhrer just for power? He had that aim because that is the only outcome that will have a fair chance to change the army to one that is more moral on their perception. Considering that Mustang and Hughes are the ones that conceived and propogate this plan, it follows that the views of these two intelligent and perceptive men are accurate in that no one else in the military can help them to achieve this. That no one of power could support them in this endeavour. If there was your so-called people of moral there, why didn't Mustang go to them?


If you can claim that others will rally immediatedly to his cause, why hasn't he gained a substantial following other than his Snoopy gang? Surely a General of your 'moral' would have helped them much better than him scheming and plotting like the rest of the army to rise further up the ranks. Why isn't some higher power taking up a moral cause or are they all blind and only Mustang is the one seeing things clearly? No. Everyone is clear on the issues surrounding the military, soldiers or citizens. Your own personal perceptions is again clouding your judgement here. You still need to prove that there is a 'moral' majority that is willing to act.

... Mustang not being able to find support of anyone with a good set of morals does not, in any way, show that they dont exist. The quandary that Mustang is in is that he has absolutely no idea who to trust. He DOESN'T know who he can trust or go for support, except for his handpicked little gang. He is not even TRYING to rally support for himself from anyone. He is doing anything possible for a promotion .. that is it.

The shows protagonists themselves do not know whether they can trust Mustang. Ed and Al do not completely trust Mustang... Scheska, the one who WANTS a change, doesn't trust Mustang. On the outward, Mustang will NOT appear to be a "moral leader" to anyone.

Why would the vast moral majority align themselves with a "yes boss" character that Mustang purposely plays? It is a SPECIFIC part of Mustang's plan not to gather the moral majority behind him. He WANTS to look like a guy who just cares about his rank.

So no.. it would be a huge mistake to conclude that the military generally lacks morals based on the fact that they dont gather behind Mustang.

The Ishvaru war was not solely on just the Alchemists. The military actions without the Alchemists were already deplorable, in case you have forgotten about the scene with Leo, Rick and their mother, where the implication is that the army would go into houses and kill unarmed inhabitants.

I fail to see how the incident with Leo, Rick and their mother implies that the military went in and killed unarmed inhabitants. Leo and Rick put up no resistance.. and they weren't harmed. The mother was killed due to an explosion when she ran inside.

What we are discussing here is whether the military kills without ever giving the enemies a chance to surrender (as you're saying the Fuhrer is free to do to Al). There is nothing in this episode that suggests that the Military kills without giving a chance to surrender.

So the military wasn't involved in the Lior scene since before Scar got there? Geee... I guess all those ruined buildings and Rose's trauma must be some imaginary scene then... Not to forget the suppression of two rioting sides (Church & disappointed believers) by use of firearms...

How is this even relevant to the issue at hand?! Remember we are discussing one single thing.... "Does the military kill people without giving them a chance to surrender?"

You are attempting to show that it is okay for the Fuhrer to kill Al without attempting a negotiation or surrender. To do this, you need to show me an example of a situation where the military went STRAIGHT to killing without offering the opposition a chance to give up.

None of the two examples above, Lior or Ishbal illustrate a case where the Military DIDN'T try and negotiate with the opposition.

The issue is NOT the amount of destruction the Military causes... it is WHETHER the military goes straight to killing the enemy without an attempt to negotiate a surrender.

IF you find examples of such actions, you will have showed that it is okay to not bother with negotiations... and hence it would have been okay for Pride to kill Al.

Again your notion of imposing your moral standards upon a different class of people and expecting them to adhere to it surfaces here. Again have you proven any such people outside of Mustang's little clique existed? No.

Mustang is the one commanding the force to suppress the Ishuvaruns in the current time. He is one of the very few with the morals. This does not bode any support for your cause since we are talking about the majority of the army, the ones outside of Mustang's little gang.

See above... Mustang isn't even TRYING to get support from the moral majority. The fact that he doesn't gather support doesn't mean that the morality does not exist.

Where was the opportunity to surrender in the Ishuvaru war itself? Lior?

Your line of thought has already impressed upon me that you have a concept of morality that you must impose upon others. No doubt Saddam Hussein in your eyes was a man that had to follow moral constraints because otherwise his peers/subjects/citizens would comdemn him for it and overthrow him.

Your whole argument on this issue again only stems from an insistence on there being a 'moral' side in the army that doesn't exist at all.

The ishbal war had been going on for months. The military did not bring in the Alchemists who would cause massive deaths. It was stated in one of the episodes that the military was there to supress the rebellion.. and didn't manage to get the militants to set down their weapons.. I'll try and find the episode number.

In Lior, the opportunity to surrender can be inferred from Ed's statement. He DIRECTLY states that the military is full well prepared to leave Lior alone if they turn over scar.. Episode 42. Now explain to me why the military wouldn't just kill everyone?
This is the perfect example of the military trying to NOT kill when there is no need. If its okay for the military to kill everyone without giving them a chance to give up... explain why Pride didn't just order Mustang to go in and just incinerate the entire city?

No.. I do not have any moral codes that I impose on anyone....I am stating the fact that the majority of the people we are introduced to in a little detail DO have certain characteristics of morality... and that fact, BY ITSELF, is sufficient to suggest that there exist people in the military who are like them.

[Yebyosh]

To repeat once again.

Your line of thought has already impressed upon me that you have a concept of morality that you must impose upon others. No doubt Saddam Hussein in your eyes was a man that had to follow moral constraints because otherwise his peers/subjects/citizens would comdemn him for it and overthrow him.

Again and again, all your counters were simply based on broad based assumptions based off your "moral code" without any hard evidence on part of the anime. It is tiring and irksome, if that is what you intended to do, then you have certainly succeeded to a degree.

It is ridiculous to imagine that Roy Mustang in wanting to change the way the army is would never try to find allies with suitable power and influence. Roy's plan to become the Fuhrer is based on the fact that he cannot find such people. If he could have found a suitable patron, he would have done so at the beginning. Instead he could only go on his current path of being an ambitious man.

It is ridiculous to believe on cinematic viewpoints that there are other prominent 'moral' milestones on the military that have never ever been displayed onscreen and we are supposed to believe that they will suddenly appear at the last instant and rock the boat. You would love to introduce a deux-ex-mechina device just to satisfy your notion, would you.

It is quite a big oversight for me to not have ask this but... in what way does the option to offer someone surrender a moral option and necessity? The Japanese offered and accepted the surrender of their opponents in World War 2. But what is the opinion of the majority now of their actions in World War 2? What about the surrender of foes during the English Wars? Does beheading and torturing them afterwards due to their non-compliance mean they were moral in the first place? Offering them surrender makes them suddenly moral? Surrender is not a necessary option nor an indication of morality.

Already stated two, three times over and over again that the Fuhrer (akin to Saddam Hussein) has the power to defend his stance on the killing of Alphonse Elric on the charge of abetting an unknown intruder/spy into the military base and abetting an attemped assassination of the Fuhrer. But of course you conveniently ignore this in your opnion that your morality triumphs all and holds for every place on the world.

You choose to ignore the situation as presented, instead forcing an overlay of your moral views which does not represent the FMA world. By your moral views, your presented actions would of course be logical since your restrictions are in place. However your restrictions were never ever in place in this FMA world. Hence your theory is debunked.

You have yet to show the whole FMA world is of your moral slant. The protaganists and prominent personel in an anime has always been given greater showtime than the villains. Yet you base your assumption on a minority. I have no need to repeat what has been effectively shown over the discourse that you have no hard evidence but rather just an insistence of opinion that there is your 'morality' in the majority of the FMA world.

[indicatoto101]

avmoghe and yebyosh, stop fighting(jk, keep it up I like bickering). As with every show/series/movie, there is bound to be plot holes and the unexplainable. Good god, the characters of the show uses what I would call ancient magic. If you tried to logify every situation with reality, it would not fit. Every plot hole can be explained by a simple reason, climax.

[Murade]

I have to agree with Yebyosh and The Small One to some extent, I can't see an obstacle strong enough why Fuhrer couldn't have killed Al for hiding an dangerous assassin inside him and get away with it quite easily. Even if someone would have seen it happening, (and the witness would have been brave/stupid enough to stand against Fuhrer) Fuhrer could have made up some excuses, like say, he told Al to give up that Assassin as he was walking towards him, and Al refused so Fuhrer had to act accordingly. After all Fuhrer's word is the law, and I think it's not like many of the people in the army knew Al (outside of Mustang's gang), how he was an innocent little boy (he looks like a fricking robot-knight!)