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Old 2018-09-04, 15:32   Link #241
Haak
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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TL;DR…
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Last edited by Haak; 2018-09-04 at 15:45.
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Old 2018-09-05, 08:58   Link #242
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
But if we actually consider the OYW and the prelude in this Episode, this line is wrong because Gihren clearly did want to go much further than just independence and even built a gigantic freaking Death Ray to circumvent the treaty, and Kycilia deliberately sabotaged the peace talks so that they could go further. So it's just not true that they would've been fine with appeasement. The finale literally proved it.
The AT became a set of War Rules instead of EF’s terms of surrender mostly because Revil’s ZiE speech. Revil’s speech was a mistake done by Degwin (from his POV). Now imagine if Revil’s ZiE speech didn’t happen or if Revil speech actually promoted the “armistice” even more like what Degwin wanted and independence for Zeon was achieved. Gihren & Kycilia would’ve been left sulking in a corner because they just lost their ultimate tool (aka. independence seeking) which have provided them with support from the people of Zeon. Without that tool, Gihren’s & Kycilia’s cry for more war would’ve lost a lot of support. Again, Zeon’s fighting spirit were 95% fueled by the “pursue of independence”. Give them what they seek and they’ll stop fighting and most of them would rather go back to their families and live in peace.

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Besides, none this matters anyway: At the end of the day you're rewarding a side for killing half the world's population. It doesn't matter what the intentions were at the time, at the end of day Zeon nearly won by killing billions of people. The ramifications and precedents set from that can only be for the worse. Heck it sent precedents anyway - just imagine how much worse it would've been if Zeon did win.
I did say that it would’ve been morally wrong. But considering that you can prevent TITANS & Neo-Zeon from happening if you just give Zeon their independence, I’d rather go the Dr. Manhattan-way.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I mean you say that but I've seen posts say very conflicting things on the matter, and i'm not really a fan of Wild Mass Guessing.
40 colonies dropped? Are they freakin’s serious? Let me check.....oh, it’s the early outline made in 1978-1979? Yep that’s not canon anymore. Tomino, Yatate and other writers have made some changes to the background story to accompany MSG’s rerun in early 1980s and even the compilation movies. As you might already know, MSG bombed hard back in 1979, cancelled and nobody paid attention to the supplemental materials back then. MSG actually became popular during its rerun in 1981-1982 and the writers revised the background information into the things that we mostly know post-1970s. This one from 1981 is more legit, but some of it have also been rewritten by the new anime-canon. I mean, you can always go "If it's not animated, it's not canon" or "That part is canon until Sunrise decide to animate it which may or may not go the same way as various books depicted it". We can choose our own poison.

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Also, wasn't Degwin killed by Zeon's Solar Ray?
My god, what have I done? I’m sorry for that. For some reason I mixed 0079 with 0083 where the EF actually used the Solar Ray/System. That’s what you get for posting when tired from work. You're bound to make one or two mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Also, it seems Zeon violated the treaty more than once, which just goes to show that they weren't trustworthy after all.
Indeed. I was actually laughing back when I watched MSG TV during the scene where Amuro got the nuke. It was very funny to me for some reason. Anyway, yep. That’s what you get when you give such power to people like M’Quve & Killing. I mean, this guy even sabotaged Ramba Ral’s DOM delivery for his own benefit. He can't be trusted even by his own comrades.

All in all, both parties can’t really be trusted to uphold the AT. The EF themselves did many horrible things to the prisoners. Some of them were even executing surrendering Zeon soldiers on the spot and even the Zeon families which the soldiers had with Earthnoids.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes but I was responding to you point about whether Zeon could be trusted to keep their end of the bargain.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the Feds could gain from a deal if they can't trust the other side to wipe out half their population again.
No, I didnt say that the Zeon can be totally trusted. I said the following:
You may say that but here’s the funny thing: Zeon never dropped a single colony for the rest of the OYW after the signing of Antarctic Treaty. So, when it comes to "not dropping colonies on Earth”, Zeon actually kept their end of the bargain until the very last second of OYW no matter how difficult the situation was for them during the last stretch of the war.

“Not dropping colonies (or asteroids) to Earth anymore during OYW” is the point where I know that Zeon uphold. Other points..... well, you know how that goes.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Why though? Because it somehow makes Zeon look more trustworthy? At the end of the day, it takes a lot more than "sorry, we didn't intend for that" to gain that level trust after you've just wiped out half the world's population. Unless we're talking extensive apologies and reparations from Zeon and a wide unanimous opinion among Earth that Zeon didn't intend it (which would be unthinkable given the scenario) then I don't see how it's possible. At the very least, it would require a hell of lot more explanation than what we got here.
Why? Because it at least differentiate Zeon from the Nazi (that many people have compared them to). They’re not as bad. Knowing the difference between their intention/mission for the colony drop and the actual result adds an element of “accident” into the whole tragedy (even though I’d say Tianem and his orders are a lot more guilty of the civilian collateral damage). That element is something that you can’t add to something like the holocaust.

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I mean what figures are we talking here? If it were only a quarter of the world population instead of half, that would still count as "greatly reduced" but it still means billions of lives lost.
Let’s see....what was the last “unexpected giant explosion without tsunami”-disaster that we have and how many people it killed?.........I know, let’s find the absolute worst and deadliest volcanic eruption in human history.....oh hey, I found one from my own country:
Tambora (1815) killed a whopping 71,000+ people. Some died by direct impact and some died by the following diseases and famine. The eruption caused a whole year without summer.

That’s pretty much what would’ve happened if the colony only hit the dense and remote Amazon jungle far away from the sea and major cities (like Tambora in my tropical country). And thousands who’d die from direct impact would mostly be EF officers who resided in the Jaburo’s giant complex instead of civilians. That's a far cry from the cataclysm that it caused when hitting Sydney and caused the massive tsunami and killed billions of civilians.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Actually, the music is one of the reasons why I thought the narrative was against Revil. The music played during Revil's speech was one of ominous feeling. The hopeful music only started playing when it was showing the future White Base crew enjoying their care free lives and most of whom weren't listening to Revil or were listening but didn't seem all that inspired by it.
Wasn’t the ominous music of the speech mostly happened to accompany the response from people who are confused and those who are schemers? It’s part of the “different POV”-thing. And the Degwin’s scenes are still worse because none of it is uplifting or hopeful. At least Revil still got the hopeful portion compared to Degwin which got none.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I mean it is a political drama that makes political statements. This itself is nothing new and I'm 99% confident that Mirai's conversation with her father was meant to be considered from a Doylist perspective (as well as Sayla's line about Zeon and Feds all just as bad as each other). Getting characters to be a mouthpiece to express the authors views is a very common tactic.
I don’t know, man. If you still insist on viewing it in a Doylist manner then we can only agree to disagree. I personally think those scenes weren’t that hard on the Doylist POV.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
All I can do is link to the Wikipedia article on the subject.

I would certainly say it is equivalently bad if that's what you meant but obviously not bad in the exact same way. But then again, Hitler never killed half the world's population either, so I don't think we need to be pedantic about it. And if Poe's Law really is involved then even less so: Questions on how equivalent it is are kind of irrelevant. If the show truly is committing False Equivalencies, then pointing out that they're not equivalent doesn't prove that the show isn't committing False Equivalencies.
The USSR deeds that you linked was actually also done by the EF on a more regular basis. Back in MSG TV, you can see how the EF soldiers screw with some local people’s lives. If I’m not mistaken, it’s around the episode where Amuro met his mother. You also have Zinnerman’s recollection where the Zeon city where his family lived got ransacked and pillaged by the EF soldiers and they did terrible terrible things to his wife and daughter. There’s also a recollection from that Zeon guy from Thunberbolt where he said to have dug the corpse of his baby from the rubble or something.

So, the EF did all the terrible things that the USSR did and plus some more higher level of corruption considering what higher-up officers like Elran and Tianem did. And don’t forget that people like Bask Om and Jamitov Hymen were also high-ranked EF officers at the time. One can only imagine what atrocities they did during the OYW .
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Old 2018-09-05, 13:18   Link #243
Haak
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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I think we've pretty much said everything we can on the matter. At the end of the day, it all just boils down to how we view certain things.
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Old 2019-02-22, 05:14   Link #244
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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The Origin TV series will be titled Kidō Senshi Gundam: The Origin Zenya - Akai Suisei (Mobile Suit Gundam the Origin - Eve of the Red Comet).

All three OP songs will be performed by Luna Sea and ED by Sugizo.
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Old 2019-02-25, 17:40   Link #245
Mad Pierrot
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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Age: 28
Sweet. I'll try watching the tv series since I never watched the OVAs. Kind of like Unicorn
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