F/SN UBW TV - Episode 19 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Levani]

You're being silly, there is literary no reason for you to apologize xD

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Levani

Whining is mostly exclusive to ANN and MAL. Animesuki and Reddit all have bunch of intellectual people who criticize the show with compelling arguments and actually discuss things without getting emotional. They show respect to one another and rarely do things go out of hand.

I think this is because MAL and ANN have terrible mod-control and are filled with trolls. MAL specifically calls people who were introduced to this franchise through Fate/Zero, secondaries. Which I guess I qualify. It's a toxic environment that a rational person needs to avoid. It's physically exhausting to read that level of bullshit. On Reddit you get immediately down-voted if you are rude. Here mods easily take care of trolls. I'm really grateful to the mod-team of Animesuki.

Well I actually try to create contrast at MAL by showing that not every VN reader "dislikes the show, while overglorifying the VN". It would become quite annoying if because of 5 or so vocal (and one over-the-top insanely vocal) MAL users, everyone starts to dispise all VN readers.

Now I am starting to think that it was a bad idea... but at least I have no regrets.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Levani

I've read the ANN review, simply terrible. That reviewer was bad from the start but now I am sure that they are some self-proclaimed critic who think that their opinion is somehow above the casual viewer. That pretentious tone is so annoying and jarring.

I have learned to take reviews with a grain of salt, or in this case it sounds like you'd need the whole bag

A guy named Charles Solomon reviewed Girls und Panzer for a major online marketer and he said it was full of Nazi imagery, nudity, and violence against women. Obviously he'd never bothered to actually watch the series

Fate/Stay Night UBW has been engrossing, well paced overall, well voiced, visually and musically beautiful. Keep it coming ufotable!!

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

I have learned to take reviews with a grain of salt, or in this case it sounds like you'd need the whole bag

A guy named Charles Solomon reviewed Girls und Panzer for a major online marketer and he said it was full of Nazi imagery, nudity, and violence against women. Obviously he'd never bothered to actually watch the series

Fate/Stay Night UBW has been engrossing, well paced overall, well voiced, visually and musically beautiful. Keep it coming ufotable!!

Yes on all except pacing. Its fine when you are behind and watching in blocks, but as it airs, its a real tension killer I think. As I said in t'other thread, I think it should have held a 50min format.

[TwilightsCall]

I agree kind of. Ever since Season 2 started, it felt like the story was just barreling forward without much regard to the viewers. There were quite a few times where the progression started to become rather disjointed, whether in a given episode or between them.

That being said, as I said previously, slowing right down in this last episode really did wonders. And I don't remember having the same complaints about S1, so hopefully this was just a small rut that they've successfully dug themselves out of already.

Overall, I'd say the pacing has been alright. As long as they don't bomb it from here I won't have much to complain about.

[Levani]

"Pacing", what exactly is the problem with it? Is it too fast, is it too slow? Seems like "pacing" is also dependent on the viewer's taste and seems like every person has their own definition of a "pacing issue". This is what I've gathered and concluded after being part of so many fandoms. If this is not a taste issue, but an actual objective problem in the fiction then I guess I am ignorant at understanding basic story-telling tricks and ways.

Why exactly is it a tension killer? What do you mean by progression being disjointed? I'm interested in which scenes or which episodes you're talking about that led you to have these opinions. Otherwise I can't really understand it.

[TwilightsCall]

Pacing is most definitely a subjective issue.

As I said, my main beef would be with S2, so I'll talk about that a little bit.

Everything that's happened after Saber was taken away has just been a constant, non-stop barrage of things happening. It's like, "Fighting Caster, scene change, Archer's gone, scene change, random Illya Flashback?, scene change, Illya's dead, scene change, Caster's dead!" It's just a constant barrage of problems and conflicts that don't have satisfactory conclusions (because there is still lots of story to be had), but they never give time to actually digest what happened. There is very little time to cool off between everything happening - the best being Shirou and Rin having a spat after they bury Illya.

I feel like I'm playing the issue up too much, and it certainly didn't hinder my enjoyment that much while watching it, but this last episode of just "let's talk, let's figure everything out" felt very powerful, maybe in part because it had been so long since we had had a chance to slow down and catch up.

As far as being disjointed, that was mostly a problem with a couple episodes around the UBW scene. The transitions between scenes didn't feel very fluid, once they even had two scenes overlapping for no reason I could discern. Yeah there are situations where that is okay and feels natural, but this wasn't one of them. Also, the whole scene in UBW felt like it had just been shoehorned in. Going into UBW was okay, but coming out just felt like "...wait, that's it?" The actual exchange within UBW lasted all of like 5 seconds, and once we were back in the church there was an honest moment of "wait, why are we back here again?"

I didn't rewatch the episodes again before writing this, so I don't have many more specific examples, but there were a fair number of examples like that where I just thought "wait, we're here now? Oh, okay." There didn't feel like there was a logical flow between many of the scenes, and when I have to stop and get my bearings on where we are (even when I know what's going to happen, no less!) it breaks immersion and dampens the entire experience.

Discussing it like this makes it seem a lot worse than it is, its not like I'm trying to say they did a bad job. I just think there are a couple places that could use some polish from a director's standpoint.

[GreyZone]

^Keep in mind that in the second cour many more things are probably cut, because just from TV airing it's 40 mins shorter than the first cour. And there has been 15 or more minutes officially (by Twitter) confirmed to have been cut already and that were just the first 3 episodes of the second cour... which is already more than the additional scenes of the first cour in total...

[Levani]

As far as being disjointed, that was mostly a problem with a couple episodes around the UBW scene. The transitions between scenes didn't feel very fluid, once they even had two scenes overlapping for no reason I could discern. Yeah there are situations where that is okay and feels natural, but this wasn't one of them. Also, the whole scene in UBW felt like it had just been shoehorned in. Going into UBW was okay, but coming out just felt like "...wait, that's it?" The actual exchange within UBW lasted all of like 5 seconds, and once we were back in the church there was an honest moment of "wait, why are we back here again?"

I agree with this. The UBW sequence really felt weird and un-satisfying. The first appearance of UBW should not have been so weak. I will be really surprised if the BD doesn't have a fix.

Discussing it like this makes it seem a lot worse than it is, its not like I'm trying to say they did a bad job. I just think there are a couple places that could use some polish from a director's standpoint.

I know, I know. I'm not being a fanboy that cannot handle criticism, I just want to hear it in detail otherwise I have hard time following it xDD

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Pacing is most definitely a subjective issue.

As I said, my main beef would be with S2, so I'll talk about that a little bit.

Everything that's happened after Saber was taken away has just been a constant, non-stop barrage of things happening. It's like, "Fighting Caster, scene change, Archer's gone, scene change, random Illya Flashback?, scene change, Illya's dead, scene change, Caster's dead!" It's just a constant barrage of problems and conflicts that don't have satisfactory conclusions (because there is still lots of story to be had), but they never give time to actually digest what happened. There is very little time to cool off between everything happening - the best being Shirou and Rin having a spat after they bury Illya.

I feel like I'm playing the issue up too much, and it certainly didn't hinder my enjoyment that much while watching it, but this last episode of just "let's talk, let's figure everything out" felt very powerful, maybe in part because it had been so long since we had had a chance to slow down and catch up.

As far as being disjointed, that was mostly a problem with a couple episodes around the UBW scene. The transitions between scenes didn't feel very fluid, once they even had two scenes overlapping for no reason I could discern. Yeah there are situations where that is okay and feels natural, but this wasn't one of them. Also, the whole scene in UBW felt like it had just been shoehorned in. Going into UBW was okay, but coming out just felt like "...wait, that's it?" The actual exchange within UBW lasted all of like 5 seconds, and once we were back in the church there was an honest moment of "wait, why are we back here again?"

I didn't rewatch the episodes again before writing this, so I don't have many more specific examples, but there were a fair number of examples like that where I just thought "wait, we're here now? Oh, okay." There didn't feel like there was a logical flow between many of the scenes, and when I have to stop and get my bearings on where we are (even when I know what's going to happen, no less!) it breaks immersion and dampens the entire experience.

Discussing it like this makes it seem a lot worse than it is, its not like I'm trying to say they did a bad job. I just think there are a couple places that could use some polish from a director's standpoint.

^ This, it seems to lack a steady "lead up > climax > cool down", its almost constant climax with cliffhangers (which have week long waits).

In regards to tension killing. It starts to kill the tension of what's happening when its constant event after event with week long breaks at the peaks of each battle.

I hope that makes sense. I'm really enjoying the show though, its the best show this season (and the best show over the last couple of years). It just isn't perfectly paced is all.

I think a lot of it will be better watched in 2-3 episode blocks though.

[Dengar]

I guess that's one thing that's pretty hard to pull off when turning a somewhat action-y VN into a series. The pacing feels different when playing the game.

[Lord C]

Originally Posted by Levani

Whining is mostly exclusive to ANN and MAL. Animesuki and Reddit all have bunch of intellectual people who criticize the show with compelling arguments and actually discuss things without getting emotional. They show respect to one another and rarely do things go out of hand.

I think this is because MAL and ANN have terrible mod-control and are filled with trolls. MAL specifically calls people who were introduced to this franchise through Fate/Zero, secondaries. Which I guess I qualify. It's a toxic environment that a rational person needs to avoid. It's physically exhausting to read that level of bullshit. On Reddit you get immediately down-voted if you are rude. Here mods easily take care of trolls. I'm really grateful to the mod-team of Animesuki.

Still, the that review on ANN has really been away from the plot. The reviewer has just been saying feminist this, alpha male that. Okay, I get it, opinions matter, but it's like he didn't even care and just start to discuss about a single point while he was writing all of that

[Levani]

Anyone who brings "feminism" issues in fiction is not worth our times, to be honest. The idea that we have to censor stories so they fit some individuals idea of equality is baffling, ridiculous and almost insulting. If something is morally incorrect in your book, the wisest choice is to stay away from it. Explaining why they should remove Shinji's rape moments or violence against women in general so they feel at peace is bullshit. Too much for you? As I said, leave and stop watching.

When a reviewer brings their political opinion into fiction made from another culture... that's when that review loses all value.

[Double_Edge]

lol @ Saber in this episode.

Lancer: Don't you want to come save your master?

Saber: Naw, I'm trying to watch this fight.

[Lanvidia]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Well I actually try to create contrast at MAL by showing that not every VN reader "dislikes the show, while overglorifying the VN". It would become quite annoying if because of 5 or so vocal (and one over-the-top insanely vocal) MAL users, everyone starts to dispise all VN readers.

Now I am starting to think that it was a bad idea... but at least I have no regrets.

I knew I'd seen your avatar somewhere. I actually stopped visiting the MAL forums because I think the user base there is very immature. I don't even want to begin with the UBW subforum, a certain someone there made the topics there very obnoxious. The general complain I'd notice there was that the anime wasn't exactly like the visual novel. If they wanted the visual novel so badly, then they should've just read the novel again.

I like Fate enough that I've read the VN twice, and my favourite scenes countless times and I think this was a very good adaptation. I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with the pacing either as Levani said. Things were much slower in the VN, but a novel and a TV series are two very different things. If it had been as slow as it was in the original material it would've been unbearable. Can you imagine bearing with it through a week-to week basis? I can't.

[Guido]

Today, it's special since I'm going to write two reviews for two consecutive episodes the same day.

This episode and the next one and the next to follow mark the climax and the quintessential moment that constitute Unlimited Blade Works scenario.

Shiro is fighting against and being beaten by his own ideal; the ideal self he longs to become.

The lore and mythology of Fate/stay night, if I'm understanding correctly, is about ideals: the aspiration to have ideals, the perserverance to remain true to your ideals, the bitter realization to come to terms with your ideals, the struggle to uphold your ideals, and the wish that comes before the ideal is realized.

Reality and ideal clashing against each other. Nature is forever brutal and yet wise, and yet people can be both unforgiving and relentless.

To give your life for what is correct thing to do just out of following orders, the price one has to pay to stick to his or her own ideals, or a selfish whim.

Nobody else can answer that question for us except seeking ourselves to find and reach our own truths.

Archer (Emiya) and Shiro denying each other, and yet they started the same on that Hell wished to be saved by anyone.