2011-04-05, 03:09 | Link #301 | |||||||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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A risk is often not considered dangerous, because it is not risky enough. When somebody tells you smoking is dangerous it would be, by comparison, the same overhyping. It is not more dangerous than elevated levels of radiation (but donÄt get me wrong you cannot easily compare the two, both depend on the dose/how many cigarettes you smoke). Did you know that 50mSv each year for 35 years (1.75 Sv => WHO 1 Sv == 4% higher cancer risk) raises the average cancer risk abut 7%? If you apply this number on a large population, e.g. 1,000,000 people you could statistically estimate that 70,000 of them would get cancer in their lifetime. However, this dosis is not considered dangerous (just to give you a picture what dangerous really means in the world of nuclear risk studies). The problem is imo not the radiation as a form of background radiation. More interesting are heavy isotopes like Cs 137. If you get these into your body (which is not unlikely since they were set free in the region) they can concentrate in your body and form radioactive hot spots, areas with higher levels of radiation in your body (that can have a more serious impact on certain organs inside your body, even though on average the radiation is not significant). I do not have to mention that the human as the supposed end of the food chain is especially exposed to the risk of accumulating such isotopes with the food. What else to consider... certain isotopes will not easily leave the body once inside (they circulate). Quote:
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http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_m...ischen_Anlagen (unfortunately only in german) Quote:
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2011-04-09, 13:11 | Link #302 |
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Thought I'd drop in and put a couple of links down that might help people understand the issue:
First off, XKCD has a handy radiation chart that is worth looking at. Second, a helpful visual comparison how many deaths per watts for the three main energy generation types. Also, just for giggles, including an up-to-the-moment radiation graph for Hiroshima. Mainly to showcase that any radiation released from Fukushima isn't really making it that far, and isn't that dangerous. Lastly, I wanna share a small story that was posted elsewhere, that one can use to explain to people the issues: "Once upon a time, there was town. There were some smart people in this town, and they took notice of a natural occurrence wherein trees would fall over rivers, allowing people to cross them. Soon, these engineers were purposefully felling trees across rivers, making life easier and better for everyone. Eventually, they learned to improve these "bridges" as they were being called, adding railing and flattening one side of the trees to make them safer and more comfortable. Even putting several trees next to each other. They even had plans to begin using new materials to construct bridges, when tragedy struck. One of the oldest bridges, a simple felled tree that had been in use for 30 years or so, collapsed in foul weather and killed a few people. Rather than call for better safety measures and retire old bridges in favor of safer ones, the populace howled in anger and demanded all bridges to be removed immediately. After all, anyone could die at anytime on one! Instead, the populace decided that the better idea was to simply hire full-time ferrymen to help people cross rivers. The poor engineers couldn't convince the populace that bridges could be safe, and would end up being cheaper in the long run, then hiring ferrymen. What do you think of these townsfolk?" I mean, on one hand we have a reactor that survived melting down when confronted with an earthquake AND tsunami that were higher than it was rated for. Some radiation has escaped, but there hasn't been any deaths yet, and at worst, only a few people will be injured. And on the other, we have an oil rig that is responsible for several deaths, as well as the complete ruining of an entire ecosystem, while putting hundreds, if not thousands of fishermen and fish-related industries out of business. Which disaster would you prefer? |
2011-04-09, 19:00 | Link #303 | |||
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Undamaged: http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats...tistics/costs/ Accident, but mostly undamaged: http://www.efmr.org/files/TMI-2DFIPetition.pdf Accident, badly damaged: http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Boo.../chernobyl.pdf Accident, ongoing: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...72U06920110331 ...Bridges are rather conventional compared to nuclear reactors. It is an arduous task to clean up after a nuclear accident (entombment doesn't mean the problem is solved, the sarcophagus must be maintained). I suggest reading about places like the Hanford site, in order to envision what kind of task cleaning up mere water can be. And, adding safety features isn't going to stop anybody from falsifying maintenance records (the human side of the equation is a big argument for some). There is nothing wrong with questioning safety, it's only a problem when people give in the hysteria (Jinto has good points against nuclear power, for one). Especially since seismic activity is cyclical, and nature can kick us over the edge any time it so wishes. Quote:
"Completely ruining an ecosystem," in reference to Macondo is kind of like saying, "render Japan uninhabitable" in reference to Fukushima. I also believe that when it comes to commerce, oil or radiation have relatively similar effects in dissuading people from traveling, etc. Maybe people would be even more cautious due to radiation, as it's comparatively harder to detect and understand. The widespread impact (of any disaster) simply cannot be accurately tabulated. On the scale of bad things having a node further out doesn't make something less bad. It's still as bad, in the end. Things don't always go as planned, or even have to make sense (...like everything about Anders in DA II...), but they still happen. Really, what would have happened if the SFP had gone up in flames? I'd like to err on the side of caution, lest my kids grow up hating me for ruining the world, or something similar (if I ever manage to find an unfortunate manslave who'll put up with me, that is ). Maybe the real problem is that we feel entitled to use as much energy as we want at a self-defined reasonable price. |
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2011-04-09, 19:45 | Link #304 | ||||
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Economically, TEPCO is gonna have issues. That is, the group responsible for the energy source. BP and Transocean? Well, the latter just gave out bonuses to it's employees saying it was their safest year on record! Meanwhile, all those local fisherman are out of jobs because there are no fish to catch, because all the fish are dead! It has immediate local ramifications, which will ripple out through the entire country. Meanwhile, you can't eat some oranges or milk from Japan for a week, maybe two, and then things are back to normal. And note: this is ignoring the oil issues that crop up in the gulf, which prop up dictators and kill protesters. Quote:
But radiation is scaaaary, so with that chart above, I aim to remove the fear by education on what kind of radiation is safe. Even then, there are differences among particles, some of which will pass through you without doing anything, and some that can't even penetrate your skin. |
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2011-04-10, 09:56 | Link #305 | |||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
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The dead zone was there (annually) before the spill. Blame the farmers upstream if blame must be placed, not BP. There are many dead zones all over the world. Coverage over the BP spill had as much crappy reporting as Fukushima has had. The information out there about the spill, is once again the industry on one side and expert personalities tinted by hysteria on the other. Most of the things we do adversely effect nature, as a whole how can anybody quantify the damage? How long does spent fuel have to be contained? 10000 years? 25000? Are the health effects of Hanford and similar sites anything that anybody will ever attempt to tabulate? It is impossible. Estimations can be given, but the unknowns are so large that the estimations are actually pretty hilarious given how much is not considered (yes I know, take the simple system and add onto it...but that does not work here given that there is an agenda to push on any side). In the end, they are all bad, but it is a risk in living so the only thing that can be done is to understand, and do what we can to minimize the damage. Arguing that one thing isn't as bad as another is really...an unacceptable solution, at least to me. TEPCO is already on the hook (previous links) for more than BP had signed up to pay for by the end of Macondo. The talks of nationalization for TEPCO are no better in terms of shirking responsibilities. There is no way that TEPCO can absorb the damages for this. None of these companies ever face the full set of consequences for their actions. A nuclear meltdown at worst...well, the papers are part of NUREG's evaluations found at the DOE link I posted earlier. The "worst possible" scenario that was considered was the fuel burning. Once the fuel begins to burn, nobody can get close enough. ONRL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Rid...nal_Laboratory) calculated that such an event would burn for at least 7 months. This would have rendered the main island of Japan uninhabitable. If ONRL is willing to admit that, I would take it as truth. Especially since the DOE did absorb the AEC. And not being able to eat things from Japan for a week or two...not all of the release are isotopes with short-lives... Oil issues -> dictators fighting wars. Nuclear plant -> dictators with nukes...nuclear plant targets in a war...I don't like this kind of argument, that can go on and on. Quote:
I would hope that nuclear plant operators would be more competent in at least their site planning in the future. I mean, leveling part of a hill to build a plant, and then siting the emergency backup generators where, again? And the conduit tunnels, too? In a tsunami zone?...Really? Really? Hindsight can be awful... Quote:
Last edited by NameGoesHere; 2011-04-10 at 11:01. Reason: giving away too much ;) |
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2011-04-10, 12:05 | Link #306 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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It seems some Japanese don't like Nuclear power much anymore:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12874198
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2011-04-10, 15:06 | Link #308 | |
著述遮断
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Conventional power systems can be built, tested, certified and connected to grid in an impressively shorter time than Nuclear Plants. Replacing the old Nuke Plants will be easy... there are pre-built power plant packages that can be purchased. In fact you can rent or purchase conventional power-barges to supplement power in coastal areas. Thing is ... for ordinary folks ... conventional plant systems do not carry the same dangers as nuclear plants and to ordinary folk conventional plants are much easier to deal with. For them Fuel isn't a risk of the same magnitude nor are the engines that burn them. You will never find a conventional plant that takes almost a month to cool, stabilize and properly shutdown. Nor one that will ever need the possibility of being entombed in concrete. You do not need a 20 - 200 Km safety zone around a conventional plant that is having fuel leaks, engine, boiler or turbine trouble. So those are the arguments people will condense and digest. In the end, this issue of nuclear power supply is most important for the ordinary folks and we must give them what they want. Be it removal or improvement. To quote a friend of mine who is anti-nuclear : "The educated elite aren't the ones who suffer... since you are usually the first to get out of dodge because you know whats bad and whats not" In her view : "Nuclear plants need to be over engineered. If it needs to be over engineered, it isn't exactly safe." In an earthquake prone country, worse tsunami prone, Nuclear power is against the wall and may very well be on its way out of Japan. |
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2011-04-11, 17:23 | Link #309 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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Welp, this shit just got real. The nuclear emergency level for the Fukushima power plant has been raised to level 7, which is equal to the one issued for the Chernobyl crisis back in 1986. NHK didn't restrain itself this time to make the comparison. orz
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/2011...249911000.html |
2011-04-11, 17:36 | Link #310 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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2011-04-11, 18:21 | Link #311 |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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I am always careful not to play things down. But it is correct, one cannot compare Chernobyl with Fukushima. Still, isotopes like Cs 137 are in yet unknown quantities in the environment. We have to wait for the analysis data of the long living isotopes. Iodine isotopes in the ocean should not pose a great risk, but Cs 137 in the food chain... hm...
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2011-04-12, 10:32 | Link #312 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Obviously she needs to go back to school, or she is totally clueless about how businesses run in recessions. Here is a sensible editorial which obviously nobody reads : Beware of Japan’s Chernobyl-level rank Quote:
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2011-04-12, 16:10 | Link #313 | |
著述遮断
Join Date: Jul 2009
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If I remember correctly a previous argument was "You smart guys like to look down on us simple folks" You go "back to school" comment would have had me involved in a very bad argument. To simply put... She trusts technicians and engineers, she doesn't trust the BUSINESS MEN behind the technicians and engineers. She no longer trusts scientists because most of them are "beggars for grants" When it comes to nuclear power arugments with her and my friends I can't help but reveal my brightly coloured bias to beautifully engineered reactor systems. Especially Water based units. I got cussed out that "I'm in love with the technology more than the people it is to serve." and I had to really look at her words. She: "If the people it is to serve are scared, then what do you do ?" Me: "Educate them and answer thier questions" I should have known better ... She: "How do you clean up a nuclear fuel leak of any kind ?" I haven't gotten back to her as yet. Perhaps I need to go back to school myself. |
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2011-04-12, 18:17 | Link #314 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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From what I recall, all power plants are over engineered. Be it oil, coal, hydroelectric or nuclear. Any plant that uses turbines to generate power is over engineered so it will last a long time while being a safe and reliable as possible. Any plant that is not will have accidents. Just with nuclear, if it isn't overengineered, a lot more people could die in one accident/ However, the other plant will likely have more people die due to multiple accident, than the single nuclear accident. Things add up after all, because with the other plant types, people get complacent.
Clean up, if I recall correctly, depends on the material that is irradiated. If it is a solid, it gets covered, collected, or washed away with chemicals to nuetralize it. If it is a liquid, is is absorbed and contained. Sometimes it is dispersed to a wider area (say the ocean) were its parts per billion amounts of radiation will be practially nothng of note (I think the US Navy uses the term "banana" as a measurement of radiation, as in how much radiation you get from eating a banana's worth dose of radiation.) Of course if I recall your specific situation Zetsubo, you were mentioning an island (nation?) specilating on using nuclear power, but the arguements come up that the old conventional plant failed once and was rebuilt in the spot in weeks or months verse a nuclear plants that might never be safe if it fails. How big of an island are we talking about? Will one plant power the entire island, or just be one of a few power plants?
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2011-04-12, 22:36 | Link #315 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2011-04-13, 09:22 | Link #316 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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If abstract algebra is that easy to understand, quantum physics would be stuck in the 1800s and be totally like intelligent design. There is a reason why physicists have to sit through nights and days just to work out a link between two numbers - logic is easy only if you make an effort to understand it. The right answer to "If the people it is to serve are scared, then what do you do?" is "Let them be." Fear is an emotion generated by doubt, and doubt is caused by the lack of understanding and knowledge. Nobody can overcome their fear except for themselves, and that one avenue is to seek to understand, decide and if possible, innovate - an aspect many anti-nuclear critics fail to bring up in their case against nuclear power. Honestly speaking, I see those who oppose nuclear power in favour of alternatives other than geothermal and solar fail to do their math - energy production also takes into account cost-efficiency. Cost-wise, those two are the closest one I can see that can generate sustainable power at an efficient cost over the long period, like half-a-century or so*. * - This is assuming that we : 1. Don't get idiots like those at TEPCO running the management. 2. Have a proper regulating body that supervises OHAS (Operational Health And Safety) 3. Murder every single corporatist lobbying against such technology in favour of Big Oil 4. Ignore and incarcerate every protestor against aggressive investment and research into such technologies. Quote:
And there is another group called "speculators" - they didn't want to put their money in one place for too long because "there might be other better opportunities out there". Majority are those who bought Nikkei after it fell during the first quake, and subsequently sold their shares to avoid a huge loss due to the Chernobyl rating. What they didn't realise is that an economy doesn't grow by itself; something called "money" has to be pumped into it.
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2011-04-13, 09:38 | Link #317 |
Adventure ∀logger
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I just realized this thread was here so I haven't been following it. The way I see it, is that for Japan overall Nuclear energy is a good resource since unlike many other countries, Japan doesn't have any resources of it's own such as oil etc... Even though it may pose a risk since Japan has a tendency to get the occasional strong earthquakes and tsunamis; what doesn't kill them should make them stronger. From this hopefully they should learn how to better prepare themselves for a next time. The less they have to rely on other countries, the better their economy should be also.
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2011-04-13, 15:38 | Link #318 | |||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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So its basically like getting cheap energy today and have to pay high costs for safe storage tomorrow. Now from an economical POV storing ever increasing amounts of depleted nuclear fuel is not a future proof concept (there are studies where around the world such storage places begin to leak... so basically it is already time to spend a lot of money and make these places safe again (this will not directly be paid with your electricity bills because it is a national/public responsibility and is therefore financed with other taxes which is somewhat intransparent... anyway most people won't care about nuclear waste because the power plants are perceived as the bigger problem - which is wrong for LWR power plants at least). Hence recycling of nuclear waste is the goal for the future (and I am not talking about the US armor piercing amunition (AC10-GAU8) way of recycling ... rotting on battle fields in 3rd world countries). The nuclear industry aims for breeder reactors... surprise surprise, most of the newer generations nuclear power plant designs are fast breeders - FBR (that produce more MOX fuel than they need for operation) or simpler thermal breeders that can at least work very efficient with MOX (a by-product in FBRs). Despite what scientists and lobby groups tell you, breeders are intrinsically less safe than LWR power plants (not only because they operate at much higher core temperatures, but because they rebreed their own fuel - you thought the Fukushima cool down was long? - I think you don't want to see that happen in an FBR - that thing can breed its own fuel and when the control rods fail completely it could theoretically become even supercritical - though I don't exactly know which counter meassures exists for this scenario and how effective they are...). Even if you could make them safer by over-over-engineering them (by comparison to LWR power plants), you'ld still have to calculate with a worst case that is far worse than anything that can happen in an LWR power plant. Now think about it again... where are we heading here... you need to factor everything in... the costs of nuclear dumping sites, the resulting economy driven push for FBRs and TBRs, the resulting safety concerns... I must say, I am not convinced that at the long run the costs for this type of electricity come cheaper than renewables (even though, very complicated electricity storage/distribution mechanisms have to be factored in the renewable equation to have a rather stable base load power... I still think it can be cheaper on the long run - I mean the nuclear industry has a lot of indirect costs that are not on the electricity bill, storage is one such cost, treating cancer (very expensive) is another, I could find more...) Quote:
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Last edited by Jinto; 2011-04-13 at 16:02. |
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