US Elections 2016 Part II: The Debates & General Election

[Ithekro]

I would point back that when it mattered (when Trump crossed the 270 line) Trump was ahead in the popular vote by about a million votes. Since then Clinton's vote number have gone up, but in places were it won't matter....like California which was solidly voting for her from the second the doors opened, and everyone in the state knew it without an real doubts. She took the state by a factor of 2 to 1 against Trump. So I was very comfortable I could vote for whomever I wanted since it would not make a difference in the way the state went. So I voted for someone that actually seemed like he could be a decent person as well as President...I voted Sanders (even if he was not eligible anymore).

[Sheba]

Oregon became almost all red, while Massachussetts remained blue. I am polarized about it.

[sasoras]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I would point back that when it mattered (when Trump crossed the 270 line) Trump was ahead in the popular vote by about a million votes. Since then Clinton's vote number have gone up, but in places were it won't matter....like California which was solidly voting for her from the second the doors opened, and everyone in the state knew it without an real doubts. She took the state by a factor of 2 to 1 against Trump. So I was very comfortable I could vote for whomever I wanted since it would not make a difference in the way the state went. So I voted for someone that actually seemed like he could be a decent person as well as President...I voted Sanders (even if he was not eligible anymore).

There were poll workers that came out and shouted to stop writing Bernie in.

[Ithekro]

There is a Star Trek quote at might be relevant: "...perhaps what we most needed was a kick in our complacency - to prepare us for what lies ahead." ~Captain Picard

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I would point back that when it mattered (when Trump crossed the 270 line) Trump was ahead in the popular vote by about a million votes. Since then Clinton's vote number have gone up, but in places were it won't matter....like California which was solidly voting for her from the second the doors opened, and everyone in the state knew it without an real doubts. She took the state by a factor of 2 to 1 against Trump. So I was very comfortable I could vote for whomever I wanted since it would not make a difference in the way the state went. So I voted for someone that actually seemed like he could be a decent person as well as President...I voted Sanders (even if he was not eligible anymore).

And here's the thing, why should there be a case of votes not mattering in a nationwide election for the highest post in the state? Why are 3 million Trump votes in California worth less than 2.8 million Trump votes in Ohio? Likewise, why are 4.5 million Clinton votes in Florida worth less than 348k Clinton votes in New Hampshire? Yes, the electoral college is a symbol of the federal nature of the United States, but frankly, it should've gone out the window April 9, 1865.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by monir

Exit polls

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2....nav=RecEngine

Comparing it to Cornell's numbers for previous elections:
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls...ps-voted-2004/

Men voted 55-44 in favour of W Bush over Kerry, and 53-41 for Trump over Hillary. Obama in 2012 lost 45-52, but won 49-48 in 2012.

Whites voted 58-41 for W Bush over Kerry, and 58-37 for Trump over Hillary. Obama in 2012 lost 39-59, and 43-55 in 2012.

If the NYT exit polls are right, that confirms that the reason why Hillary lost is primarily because women and minorities didn't show up for her in the numbers that she needed, and because she failed to get men and whites to vote for her over third parties.

[Ithekro]

Because this is a republic. We are not a democracy nor are we run by mob rule. If there was no Electoral college and every voted mattered, how many more people would vote? How much more dominate would California be nationally (over 10% of the population)? Would how would it change the numbers if people didn't think their vote would be wasted? There are several potential unintended consequences to such an act that the Electoral College was designed to prevent. What was the term, 'tyranny of the majority'? It is Majority rules, Minority Rights. A straight up democracy is just Majority rules.

Is it perfect, no, but than nothing is.

Presently the candidates spend there campaign time in the swing states that can change the elections. If it was a simple democracy, they'd spend their time in California and New York and the small states would be considered meaningless. The entire voting population of Wyoming is around the difference between Trump and Clinton at present.

How much of the public that didn't vote would side with Clinton? How much would have sided with Trump? That's what 40% of the registered population that is unaccounted for? What if they too voted for Trump as a mob? Would you be complaining about the placement of a tyrant by mob rule? Most certainly. Would it be the same if Clinton took office in that way? Yes. It would just be a different segment of the population doing the complaining.

We work with what we have. A true Democracy cannot work unless you have an educated population (educated rather than indoctrinated, which is a complaint by the educated right-wing about the school systems) that has time to look into the politics of the situation. This is not possible even with the Internet as people still need to work until such time as automation make it impractical for humans to work and somehow the economics change to the point we can do whatever without fear of not having shelter, food, and water.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Bernie: You have allowed this corruption to twist your mind, until now...until you've become the very thing you swore to destroy

Hillary: Don't lecture me, Bernie-Wan! I see through the lies of the socialists! I do not fear Wall Street as you do. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire

Bernie: Your new Empire?

Hillary: Don't make me smear you...

Bernie: Hillary, my allegiance is to America, to democracy!

Hillary: If you're not with me...then you're my enemy!

Bernie: Only a Partisan deals in absolutes...I will do as I must

Hillary: You will try...

(later on...)

Hillary: ...America. What about America? Is it safe?

DWS: It seems in your hubris...you got Trump elected

Hillary: no...this can't be...

Hillary: no...

Hillary: NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Because this is a republic. We are not a democracy nor are we run by mob rule. If there was no Electoral college and every voted mattered, how many more people would vote? How much more dominate would California be nationally (over 10% of the population)? Would how would it change the numbers if people didn't think their vote would be wasted? There are several potential unintended consequences to such an act that the Electoral College was designed to prevent. What was the term, 'tyranny of the majority'? It is Majority rules, Minority Rights. A straight up democracy is just Majority rules.

So France is not a republic or what? They have no problem voting their president in a two-staged direct election.

Presently the candidates spend there campaign time in the swing states that can change the elections. If it was a simple democracy, they'd spend their time in California and New York and the small states would be considered meaningless. The entire voting population of Wyoming is around the difference between Trump and Clinton at present.

So it's better then that "safe" big states like California, New York or Texas don't matter? If you desire to ensure the rights of small states, you can do it via the parliamentary system. That's what the Senate's there for with each state getting the same number of senators regardless of population.

[Ithekro]

France has the population about the same size as California and Texas combined and the land area of Texas. The United States is dealing with about five times that number of people and a whole lot more territory to cover.

If we wanted a parliamentary system we would have imitated the British far more than we did back in the 1780s and 90s.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

France has the population about the same size as California and Texas combined and the land area of Texas. The United States is dealing with about five times that number of people and a whole lot more territory to cover.

Size is no argument. The key issue is, as you said before, how educated the population is and how secure democratic principles are in that population. If you think that France is ahead of the US in these areas, so be it. But to repeat, size is no argument by itself.

If we wanted a parliamentary system we would have imitated the British far more than we did back in the 1780s and 90s.

You didn't get what I was saying. I was saying that the US parliamentary system already has a form of safeguard for the rights of small states in the form of the US Senate that assigns senators irrespective of the population size of the state.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...38556504494082

He's got a point.

For once, he was right.

Of course, I'm sure he has no issue with it anymore now.

[Ithekro]

One check based on the Senate is not enough, two are required due to the structure of the government. One for the Legislative Branch and one for the Executive Branch. We might need one for the Judicial Branch if it spirals into following the party lines instead of staying in the middle as Justice for all and Keepers of the law.


As for the rest, now many missteps has France had since its latest Republic came into power. What are they on now, the Fifth Republic?

[Reckoner]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58...b0ddd4fe7954e8

If true highly amusing. The DNC definitely needs a purge. Uninspired corporate democrats have sunk the party and lost us a critical election.

[MCAL]

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments...7157830656?m=1

So it begins...

https://thinkprogress.org/david-clar...e60#.z4q21i2jh

Welcome to the Potential American Nazi Party everyone.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...d-trust-231179

The Trumps and their attorneys must be on one hell of a drug.

[KiraYamatoFan]

We're only in Day 1 of the Trump era, and here is what is going on now. It goes as far as taunting kids in kindergarten because those kids have Hispanic roots.

People Share Frightening Images In The Aftermath Of Trump's Victory

Thank you very much, M. Fuckface von Clownstick. Welcome to Hell.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

If we wanted a parliamentary system we would have imitated the British far more than we did back in the 1780s and 90s.

And to be honest, that would not be a bad thing, far from it. It would hold all MPs and party leaders themselves accountable for the counties/districts they each represent. Also, that would demand all politicians and especially party leaders to engage in serious debates. To put it in simple words for all elected folks: get to work, you lazy blokes.

[Harbinger]

(EDIT)

It appears TPP is history (soon).

Originally Posted by Reckoner

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58...b0ddd4fe7954e8

If true highly amusing. The DNC definitely needs a purge. Uninspired corporate democrats have sunk the party and lost us a critical election.

We've been telling this for a while now...

DNC cheated to favor Clinton. They did everything they could to elect Clinton over Bernie and this very action has cost them the election.

"Bernie had white voters" said the media (we cannot deny that he had a lot of white voters). The DNC spit on those "white voters". Why did Hillary Clinton lose according to many people here? Because "white voters" didn't vote for her. Why didn't white voters vote for her? Because the DNC and the Clinton campaign cheated their candidate, insulted them and tried to paint them as some sort of violent chair thrower basement dweller.

Bernie supporters knew that they were cheated and they would never support a candidate that cheated them.

Don't spit on them and expect them to come to your help. If anything, they voted against Clinton to show you the door out.

The DNC needs a purge and the people who needs purging are those old dogs... those Neo-Liberals. Donna is the first one who needs to get. Debbie needs to be blacklisted for life.

[GDiddy]

Nice knowing you all. As anime will probably be banned under the new regime.

I have spent the last two days seething and cutting ties with anyone who supports Trump.

And if you did? Fuck you. Fuck you a lot. You just helped kill America and bought us a dictator.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by MCAL

https://thinkprogress.org/david-clar...e60#.z4q21i2jh

Welcome to the Potential American Nazi Party everyone.

That guy is a despicable joe of the worst kind. He reminds me of Stephen in Django Unchained.

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Nice knowing you all. As anime will probably be banned under the new regime.

I have spent the last two days seething and cutting ties with anyone who supports Trump.

That is a shame for Americans to have anime banned as much as it would be a shame anywhere else. To hell with the people who shit on anime.

Speaking of cutting ties with Trumpets, I cleared a few off my own Facebook page. I told them to go fuck themselves straight on because we have nothing in common.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Harbinger

"Bernie had white voters" said the media (we cannot deny that he had a lot of white voters). The DNC spit on those "white voters". Why did Hillary Clinton lose according to many people here? Because "white voters" didn't vote for her. Why didn't white voters vote for her? Because the DNC and the Clinton campaign cheated their candidate, insulted them and tried to paint them as some sort of violent chair thrower basement dweller.

As for the white male voters, let's not leave out the part how Trump appealed to many of them with his statements how immigrants are taking away their jobs, how non-whites are advantaged to whites in the job market and so on. None of these are true but these phrases were received with open arms.

Originally Posted by Harbinger

Bernie supporters knew that they were cheated and they would never support a candidate that cheated them.

Don't spit on them and expect them to come to your help. If anything, they voted against Clinton to show you the door out.

Each and every Bernie supporter who didn't vote in protest should ask themselves if they can really be proud of the result they got. Those who voted Trump have never been Bernie supporters to begin with as their policies are fundamentally different.