[Manga] Naruto Chapter 559 Discussion

[beyondsaving]

Wasn't sure if this had been mentioned before so I thought I would throw this out there.

Izanagi, (which we have seen Tobi/Madara use at least twice now, once confirmed in the fight against Konan, and once possibly when Sasuke hit him with Amaterasu), is the technique which allows a sharingan / senju user to connect reality from illusion.

In the lore in which Izanagi comes from, the same in which Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo came from, there is only one major piece missing from the Naruto-verse, and that is Izanami. The spouse/younger sister of Izanagi, whom Izanagi tried (but failed) to retrieve from Yami, the underworld.

Izanami could be the technique which Madara used to split himself, much like Muu did. If there was not solid proof that Madara was dead, then the 1st Hokage would not have simply walked away assuming he was dead. There must have been some undeniable proof which made the Leaf "forget" about Madara.

The only way I can think of that would explain Edo-Madara's comment about Nagato managing to grow, and even knowing who Nagato is, would be that he really did give him the Rinnegan, and the story we were told about how he awakened them for the first time was falsified, most likely through genjutsu. Now that leaves one blaring plot-hole. Time. The age of Nagato + the age of Edo-Madara do not line up. However, we have seen Tobi/Madara "suck" people up into some other dimension, so maybe time is compressed there, (hyperbolic time chamber) and Nagato, who Madara recognized as a Rinnegan host, was actually placed there well before he even battled the 1st Hokage....

We'll see how it plays out. (hopefully soon)

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by beyondsaving

Wasn't sure if this had been mentioned before so I thought I would throw this out there.

Izanagi, (which we have seen Tobi/Madara use at least twice now, once confirmed in the fight against Konan, and once possibly when Sasuke hit him with Amaterasu), is the technique which allows a sharingan / senju user to connect reality from illusion.

In the lore in which Izanagi comes from, the same in which Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo came from, there is only one major piece missing from the Naruto-verse, and that is Izanami. The spouse/younger sister of Izanagi, whom Izanagi tried (but failed) to retrieve from Yami, the underworld.

Izanami could be the technique which Madara used to split himself, much like Muu did. If there was not solid proof that Madara was dead, then the 1st Hokage would not have simply walked away assuming he was dead. There must have been some undeniable proof which made the Leaf "forget" about Madara.

The only way I can think of that would explain Edo-Madara's comment about Nagato managing to grow, and even knowing who Nagato is, would be that he really did give him the Rinnegan, and the story we were told about how he awakened them for the first time was falsified, most likely through genjutsu. Now that leaves one blaring plot-hole. Time. The age of Nagato + the age of Edo-Madara do not line up. However, we have seen Tobi/Madara "suck" people up into some other dimension, so maybe time is compressed there, (hyperbolic time chamber) and Nagato, who Madara recognized as a Rinnegan host, was actually placed there well before he even battled the 1st Hokage....

We'll see how it plays out. (hopefully soon)

If he really did use a jutsu like that, I'd rather
it not be named after Izanami, instead perhaps
it would be fitting to name it after the sword he
used to cut Kagutsuchi into 8 pieces.

On another note, the most exciting thing for me
about Madara being here is that we'll eventually
be able to use him in a future Naruto game.

[Kallen4life]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

There is no way for Itachi to win against Kabuto. Kabuto can simply dispel edo tensei. Shisui's eye only stops Itachi from doing what Kabuto wants him to do. The only reason he hasn't done it yet is most likely because it would affect all the other zombies too.

you have a good point, but unsummoning all other zombies would also be a problem for Kabuto I reckon

it's also possible :
1) Kabuto can't unsummon Itachi at all .. who knows how this works, maybe w/o having control (a 'link') he can't
2) Itachi can get the drop on Kabuto (even if the latter is expecting him) and trap him with the sharingan be4 Kabuto can do anything


one thing to consider - if Itachi makes Kabuto dispel all of ET (likely inc himself), then what stops Kabuto from re-summoning after Itachi fades away .. ? He'd have to kill Kabuto, but he can't do it until ET is gone, but then Itachi is gone too .. some kind of delayed death, not sure

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

1) Kabuto can't unsummon Itachi at all

For me it is obvious that he can't unsummon Itachi. When Itachi turned against Nagato Kabuto would have unsummoned him if he could, Kabuto was fully aware of Itachi breaking out of his control and he did know about Itachi's powers since he is the one who is controlling the zombies to do their special jutsu. Itachi is also aware of this, he would not want to go against Kabuto if he knows Kabuto can simply unsummon him. The summons, be it animals or Edo Tensei humans, can exist even after the death of the summoner, which means that one thing is to summon them and another thing is to control them.

Originally Posted by beyondsaving

Now that leaves one blaring plot-hole. Time. The age of Nagato + the age of Edo-Madara do not line up. However, we have seen Tobi/Madara "suck" people up into some other dimension, so maybe time is compressed there, (hyperbolic time chamber) and Nagato, who Madara recognized as a Rinnegan host, was actually placed there well before he even battled the 1st Hokage....

It's unlikely he had so much control over Nagato, because Nagato ended up as small child in a war zone. Why would Madara risk his precious eyes in such a way instead of leaving Nagato to Tobi who could grow him up? Nagato almost died many times, once he was saved by Yahiko from death by starving. Of course much of Nagato's childhood could be a genjutsu cast by Madara to make Nagato hate the world. However the meeting and life with Jiraiya couldn't be in Madara's plan, he would never let Nagato being thought the "will of fire", Jiraiya's influence on Nagato would be a very bad thing for Madara. So i think Madara or Tobi somehow lost control of Nagato very early, Madara could just hope that this happens one day.

[nostic]

Please, don't tell me Kishimoto has gone lame! If this turns out to be voldemort type of soul dividing technique, I am so going to puke.

Itachi mentioned a lot in the past, that the current Madara was nothing but a 'shell' of his former self. Obito could be his hocrux. That explains Tobi has a split personality - the prankster and the maniac.

Obito in the brink of death, was rescued by someone, probably by Orochimaru. Suffered some sort of amnesia because he was practically brain dead for a few minutes, and when he awakens, MAdara's with him. -Same technique used by Sasuke when he absorbed Orochimaru.

If that is the case, there is a chance that Obito could be save in the end. I am happy for Kakashi.... *fanfic writer's alert*

Obito = Otobi .. blah. Tobi, means to fly.

[Kallen4life]

if it's Obito I'll shoot Kishi in the head and then shoot myself

Kakashi doesn't need Obito, he needs to get LAID

[ridgezipline]

Originally Posted by mrShady

If I remember correctly your part of a clan from the fathers side. Thus Naruto is not an Uzumaki by that logic, add to that his blond hair while Uzumaki members all have red hair, which is their trademark feature.
Even if by lineage he's part of a clan without the clans trademarks (good at sealing, the red hair and the extraordinary life potent chakra (Naruto was never said to have special chakra just a lot of chakra)) you can hardly call him an Uzumaki. Thus he can hardly boast he's more related to sage.
Regardless of all this it's been many ages when the sage was alive and by now any genes of his bloodline should have faded beyond recognizition.

i agree with your latter statements... but
naruto is as namikaze as he is uzumaki. i think kishi designed him with blond hair besides the super saiyan resemblance: blond hair + orange/blue suit as a plot-device to look like the 4th. as for the clan's features: the sealing practices died with the clan. no one had the chance to teach him those techniques. since his genes came from minato and kushina, there's a high possibility that he has an affinity for those types of jutsu, unlike genjutsu. not sure about the special chakra, but his chakra reserve was very huge just like kushina's and i guess nagato's as well.

[beyondsaving]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's unlikely he had so much control over Nagato, because Nagato ended up as small child in a war zone. Why would Madara risk his precious eyes in such a way instead of leaving Nagato to Tobi who could grow him up? Nagato almost died many times, once he was saved by Yahiko from death by starving. Of course much of Nagato's childhood could be a genjutsu cast by Madara to make Nagato hate the world. However the meeting and life with Jiraiya couldn't be in Madara's plan, he would never let Nagato being thought the "will of fire", Jiraiya's influence on Nagato would be a very bad thing for Madara. So i think Madara or Tobi somehow lost control of Nagato very early, Madara could just hope that this happens one day.

Asuuming Zetsu was around at this early point, if Nagato did end up dying, he could have just recovered the eyes and tried with someone else. The Jiraiya encounter may have happened coincidentally, but Nagato having the memory of Leaf Ninja killing his parents, via implanted memories or real, the risk of adopting the "will of fire" vs the amount of training he would receive from Jiraiya is a good gamble IMO. Plus he could always manipulate him later on down the line, for instance, creating a criminal organization called Akatsuki.

What we know for sure, because Edo-Madara did not know about Nagato's death, is that there is not a psychic connection between Tobi and Edo-Madara. That would mean that Edo-Madara had to have some first hand knowledge of Nagato, and his Rinnegan. Which means, A) Edo-Madara did not die at the VotE, but did die at a later point after Nagato was given the Rinnegan, or B) Nagato's age is not what we thought it was.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by mrShady

If I remember correctly your part of a clan from the fathers side. Thus Naruto is not an Uzumaki by that logic, add to that his blond hair while Uzumaki members all have red hair, which is their trademark feature.
Even if by lineage he's part of a clan without the clans trademarks (good at sealing, the red hair and the extraordinary life potent chakra (Naruto was never said to have special chakra just a lot of chakra)) you can hardly call him an Uzumaki. Thus he can hardly boast he's more related to sage.
Regardless of all this it's been many ages when the sage was alive and by now any genes of his bloodline should have faded beyond recognizition.

When your logic leads you to believe that a guy named Uzumaki Naruto isn't an Uzumaki, I think it's time to change logic. I guess you can also blame dumb luck for the fact that the descendant of a clan known for his special chakra allowing them to handle the chakra of the Kyubi has himself a chakra strong enough to do it but that wouldn't be my conclusion and finally the bloodline of the Sage didn't fade that much or neither the Uchiha nor the Senju nor the Uzumaki and for that matter nor Kinkaku and Ginkaku could do what they did.

But I dont know why he summoned Madara to that particular battlefield, he probably has some hidden reason. Should be interesting to find out. .

Muu was probably the only Edo who wasn't already busy fighting the Alliance at this point.

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by ridgezipline

i agree with your latter statements... but
naruto is as namikaze as he is uzumaki. i think kishi designed him with blond hair besides the super saiyan resemblance: blond hair + orange/blue suit as a plot-device to look like the 4th. as for the clan's features: the sealing practices died with the clan. no one had the chance to teach him those techniques. since his genes came from minato and kushina, there's a high possibility that he has an affinity for those types of jutsu, unlike genjutsu. not sure about the special chakra, but his chakra reserve was very huge just like kushina's and i guess nagato's as well.

Did the clan really die? I know the country of origin got destroyed don't really remember if the entire clan was wiped out.
Well the main thing about the Uzumaki clan is that they had special chakra (it showed as being green in the anime if I remember correctly). This gave them longer life and more influence over the bijuu sealed in them. No one ever commented on Naruto having this same kind of special chakra.
Naruto is an Uzumaki, however he has no bragging rights since he seems hardly related to any of them not even mentioning the sage.

Originally Posted by Hunter

When your logic leads you to believe that a guy named Uzumaki Naruto isn't an Uzumaki, I think it's time to change logic. I guess you can also blame dumb luck for the fact that the descendant of a clan known for his special chakra allowing them to handle the chakra of the Kyubi has himself a chakra strong enough to do it but that wouldn't be my conclusion and finally the bloodline of the Sage didn't fade that much or neither the Uchiha nor the Senju nor the Uzumaki and for that matter nor Kinkaku and Ginkaku could do what they did.

The only reason he got his mother's clan name was to conceal his identity. So no by basic logic and normal circumstances in Japanese tradition he is not an Uzumaki. Regardless of that I do consider him an Uzumaki because that is his name, however he has hardly shown any of the clan traits. That's why I can't really see him show off with his heritage.

Any way Kishi just made a biological blunder when he showed Nagato with the same eyes as the Sage. There's no way a person that is alive now has the same genetic traits of a person that lived ages ago. That doesn't mean mutations can't continue, but they develop or water down. He just took creative liberty with common biological law in order to create a more interesting story.

[james0246]

^The fact that Naruto can control the Kyuubi so well is entirely due to his being an Uzumaki. In fact, that was the sole reason Kushina was brought to Konoha originally.

[Hunter]

And so was her predecessor Uzumaki Mito who, like Naruto, could sense negative emotions thanks to her control over the Kyubi, another coincidence I guess.
All the Kyubi Jinchuuriki have been Uzumaki because they are genetically better suited to undle the 9-tails.

Originally Posted by mrShady

The only reason he got his mother's clan name was to conceal his identity. So no by basic logic and normal circumstances in Japanese tradition he is not an Uzumaki. Regardless of that I do consider him an Uzumaki because that is his name, however he has hardly shown any of the clan traits. That's why I can't really see him show off with his heritage.

Let's ignore the fact that we have no idea how clan institution works in the Narutoverse and let's ignore as well that you're wrong in any case because even if it's based on the most common Japanese tradiction the apparent lack of an older brother could make Kushina's husband to receive heirship so that their oldest child becomes the next heir through him.
We can ignore all that because it's completely irrelevant to the fact that regardless of his last name Naruto still have the same genetic make-ups which is related to the Uzumaki and through them the Sage.

Any way Kishi just made a biological blunder when he showed Nagato with the same eyes as the Sage. There's no way a person that is alive now has the same genetic traits of a person that lived ages ago. That doesn't mean mutations can't continue, but they develop or water down. He just took creative liberty with common biological law in order to create a more interesting story.

First let's ignore again the fact that you're wrong and that such atavism is somewhat possible in reality or that even within the story it didn't happen naturally but through Madara/Tobi's action.
Because what kind of argument is this really? Inheritance of magical traits through countless generations shouldn't be possible IRL(!) so let's claim it doesn't exist despite the fact it's blatantly the case in the story?

[Bismark]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

For me it is obvious that he can't unsummon Itachi. When Itachi turned against Nagato Kabuto would have unsummoned him if he could, Kabuto was fully aware of Itachi breaking out of his control and he did know about Itachi's powers since he is the one who is controlling the zombies to do their special jutsu. Itachi is also aware of this, he would not want to go against Kabuto if he knows Kabuto can simply unsummon him. The summons, be it animals or Edo Tensei humans, can exist even after the death of the summoner, which means that one thing is to summon them and another thing is to control them.



It's unlikely he had so much control over Nagato, because Nagato ended up as small child in a war zone. Why would Madara risk his precious eyes in such a way instead of leaving Nagato to Tobi who could grow him up? Nagato almost died many times, once he was saved by Yahiko from death by starving. Of course much of Nagato's childhood could be a genjutsu cast by Madara to make Nagato hate the world. However the meeting and life with Jiraiya couldn't be in Madara's plan, he would never let Nagato being thought the "will of fire", Jiraiya's influence on Nagato would be a very bad thing for Madara. So i think Madara or Tobi somehow lost control of Nagato very early, Madara could just hope that this happens one day.

I thought Obito was one of his other experiments in the Rinnengan, and played a numbers game like how Orochimaru did with wood jutsu and his test subjects.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by octaviahawk

Nah dude, Itachi is the most BAD ASS NINJA...EVER!

He can pretty much do anything with his "sharin'hax" as someone called it, because Itachi is just fly like that.

Kabuto is so DEAD!

Gah. I'm such a rabid Itachi fangirl....

I have a feeling that Madara is going to give Naruto, Gaara and the others one hell of a fight and possibly have the upper hand before Itachi forces Kabuto to cancel Edo Tensei. If he has eternal Mangekyo Sharingan which Sasuke has also acquired defeating him will not do because it lessens Sasuke as an opponent.

[yakumo-chan]

maybe there are two Nagato hehe,, Nagato from the past hehe

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by james0246

^The fact that Naruto can control the Kyuubi so well is entirely due to his being an Uzumaki. In fact, that was the sole reason Kushina was brought to Konoha originally.

Originally Posted by Hunter

And so was her predecessor Uzumaki Mito who, like Naruto, could sense negative emotions thanks to her control over the Kyubi, another coincidence I guess.
All the Kyubi Jinchuuriki have been Uzumaki because they are genetically better suited to undle the 9-tails.

Then why doesn't it show in his outward appearance. He doesn't have the red hair nor does he have the special chakra (atleast never mentioned).
The haircolor seems to be important since Nagato's hair color changed when he used rinne tensei to revive all those people in Konoha. Tobi even made a comment about his beautiful red hair being drained of al it's color.
Also I personally find it debatable that Naruto was ever good in controlling the nine tails. He needed the help of Bee to finally tame the beast because up until then he was at the mercy of said beast (so to speak). Which brings me to another point that a non Uzumaki and a character with no connection to the sage whatsover is the best tailed beast host after the 4th mizukage. It doesn't seem to be required having a certain ancestor or bloodline.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Let's ignore the fact that we have no idea how clan institution works in the Narutoverse and let's ignore as well that you're wrong in any case because even if it's based on the most common Japanese tradiction the apparent lack of an older brother could make Kushina's husband to receive heirship so that their oldest child becomes the next heir through him.
We can ignore all that because it's completely irrelevant to the fact that regardless of his last name Naruto still have the same genetic make-ups which is related to the Uzumaki and through them the Sage.

If Naruto could inherit the Uzumaki clan leadership that would mean Kushina was the daughter of the "main" branch of the clan. It's never implied. But because it has never been explained how or what in universe it's kind of pointless to discuss, so I'll refrain from bringin it up again.

Originally Posted by Hunter

First let's ignore again the fact that you're wrong and that such atavism is somewhat possible in reality or that even within the story it didn't happen naturally but through Madara/Tobi's action.
Because what kind of argument is this really? Inheritance of magical traits through countless generations shouldn't be possible IRL(!) so let's claim it doesn't exist despite the fact it's blatantly the case in the story?

Good point about the atavism. Never thought about that occurring. It would explain things in story like Madara inducing said recurrence with Nagato to create the rinnegan.
Any way I never said it doesn't exist I said it's a biological blunder by Kishi. He used ancestrial traits and makes them reoccur as if the sage was Naruto's grandad. Ofcourse he can use it in story that doesn't mean it's realistic. Though ofcourse in a story having magic chakra and stuff makes anything non realistic. But he himself has played the inherented card too often not to comment about it, especially when he's (partially) wrong.

Regardless this whole discussion started because I wanted to disprove ero-senn1n's comment about Naruto being able to boast to Sasuke that he is an Uzumaki and therefore more related to the sage.
Which I still think he can't really say (Naruto).

EDIT: Who's the Lame-O who neg repped me without mentioning why. Atleast be proper and give good reasoning.

[ChronoReverse]

Do you think Itachi know Izanagi? As an Edo Tensei zombie, doesn't that mean he could use Izanagi, poke out the eye, let it regenerate and repeat?

[Kallen4life]

izanagi needs senju cells I think

although I assume he knows about it .. it's Itachi after all


tbh so far Izanagi was used only as anti-death and he's a zombie anyway, soo .. + he has a broken Susanoo - that's enough

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

maybe there are two Nagato hehe,, Nagato from the past hehe

Tobi says Nagato was the 3rd sage, so who knows, the 2nd is unknown (assuming it's not Tobi, but then why would he rent the eyes to Nagato). Or maybe that one sentece was a mistranslation, as usual

Originally Posted by beyondsaving

Asuuming Zetsu was around at this early point, if Nagato did end up dying, he could have just recovered the eyes and tried with someone else.

Why would he risk those eyes? If Nagato is killed the eyes can very well be destroyed, it can be a random explosion (the one that killed his dog), it can be a fire jutsu, a summon animal eating his body, it can be anything.

Originally Posted by beyondsaving

What we know for sure, because Edo-Madara did not know about Nagato's death, is that there is not a psychic connection between Tobi and Edo-Madara. That would mean that Edo-Madara had to have some first hand knowledge of Nagato, and his Rinnegan. Which means, A) Edo-Madara did not die at the VotE, but did die at a later point after Nagato was given the Rinnegan, or B) Nagato's age is not what we thought it was.

A) there are other possibilites too: he began his rinnegan project before he was killed by the 1st hokage, he could temporarily be borught back by Tobi or Zetsu, or maybe have a mind link to Tobi sometimes in the past, Nagato was held in a special dimension where time doesn't flow as fast, etc.
B) his age might be that, but maybe he was held in a special dimension or maybe he is the 3rd rinnegan user and the 2nd was also created by Madara decades before him but somehow it failed and Tobi created a 2nd Nagato.

I mean if Madara has something like Izanagi, or using the rinnegan something even more powerful, then he could do a lot of magic tricks.
BTW my assumption about Madara's final plan is that he wants to be able to do what the Sage could: create reality out of his imagination, an ultimate version of the izanagi. And for that he wants to create a body that has the Sage's genes (Senju body and Uchiha eyes), have the rinnegan eyes and have the infinite chakra of the 10-tails. With these 3 ingredients he thinks he can make his every dream come true, and if someone's thoughts become reality then he has become a god. Of course this would also make him immortal, i mean truly immortal, not like Tobi.

[beyondsaving]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Why would he risk those eyes? If Nagato is killed the eyes can very well be destroyed, it can be a random explosion (the one that killed his dog), it can be a fire jutsu, a summon animal eating his body, it can be anything.

True

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

A) there are other possibilites too: he began his rinnegan project before he was killed by the 1st hokage

Starting the project before the VotE battle makes sense, seeing how Tobi-Madara admitted going to battle the first hokage so as to gain the senju abilities. Something along the lines of "The true winner is he who chose to focus on the future."

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

he could temporarily be borught back by Tobi or Zetsu

How could Tobi bring Madara back if they are the same person? Yes I know that is assuming they are both Madara, but the evidence supports that more then Tobi being anyone else at this moment.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

or maybe have a mind link to Tobi sometimes in the past.

Hmmm... Mind link to the past with no relevance to the here and now no jutsu.... Can't see it.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Nagato was held in a special dimension where time doesn't flow as fast, etc.

Said the same thing in an earlier post of mine, the dimension Sasuke and Karin were put in to heal. Makes sense to me.

In any case, the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that Tobi is Madara's brother. The only person who confirmed Izuna as dead (as far as I can remember) is Tobi, and he is a proven liar. Revenging/Avenging seems to be a strong motif through the Uchiha blood.
Either revenge on the Senju for killing Madara or maybe Madara took Izuna's eyes by force and he wanted to have Nagato resurrect him so he could take them back LOL. Assuming you wouldn't want to take an Edo-Tensei summons eye and have it go *poof* in your head after releasing the jutsu