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Old 2021-04-18, 12:55   Link #61
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
I guess that's fine, but IMO Yoshida just being that way would make him less interesting as a character. As you say there will be struggles in their relationship, and Sayu's own backstory and psychology/motivation, all of which will be interesting to explore, but Yoshida's motivations as an individual would just be kind of flat.
I don't really believe such motivations are flat, but rather rare and not usually shown considering how things are nowadays. Needless to say, I believe it is actually a good point for higehiro because aside of the wholesome part of it, it also acts as something refreshing compared to the usual awkward stuff we have in anime.
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EDIT: To be fair, there is still an angle to explore here, which is that while Yoshida didn't initially have any particular (selfish) motivation to help Sayu, the act of doing so improves and changes his life. Probably the "Hige wo Suru" part is exactly referring to this. In other words, while he has no selfish motivation to pick her up per se, he _does_ develop a selfish motivation to keep her.
I wouldn't be surprised and it is very likely to happen considering how Yoshida cares about Sayu. And to be fair, I believe their relationship could stay with the surrogate father/brother tangent or shift to some blooming/platonic romance assuming the author did the proper groundwork for that, such as balanced character development for him, not just for Sayu.
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Old 2021-04-18, 14:52   Link #62
Eater of All
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I don't really believe such motivations are flat, but rather rare and not usually shown considering how things are nowadays. Needless to say, I believe it is actually a good point for higehiro because aside of the wholesome part of it, it also acts as something refreshing compared to the usual awkward stuff we have in anime.
To be clear, the motivation itself is not flat. It is rare - even foster families or people who adopt animals _often_ (not always) have their own motivations to have children or pets, which I would still consider selfish motivations. It doesn't mean selfish motivations have to be the only factor, or that they can't have good outcomes*. But actions like taking care of another person, motivated _only_ by selfless motivations are rare, and if I see this in real life, I would be admiring of and respect such people.

But I may not be thinking of the same thing as you, because it seems to me these kinds of selflessness are common in anime. MCs are nice and sacrifice themselves because they just are. Some provide a backstory - ranging from convincing to contrived - for how they became that way. But ultimately they're just conveniently that way, and to me that's not as interesting.

* Although it is also a well-known phenomenon for adopted families (whether it's children or pets) to then become abusive or negligent, once they realize it's not sunshine and rainbows.
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Old 2021-04-18, 15:41   Link #63
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Watched up to episode 2. Here the anime references a scientific fact that many women are uncomfortable with: That a man is seen as more attractive when he is already in a romantic relationship. Obviously not every woman reacts like that all the time, but it is quite measurable statistically.

Anyway, in this case, it probably also helps that he's started shaving and wearing ironed shirts.

So now our hero has three potential future lovers: The one he wants, the one who wants him, and the one who needs him. Given his personality, it is pretty easy to see which one he would go for. We saw the same thing with Pet Girl of Sakurasou: Evidently the most appealing trait possible in a Japanese woman is being dependent on the man. I find this a bit disturbing, to be honest.
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Old 2021-04-18, 16:05   Link #64
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Depending on how cynically you analyze it, it could be a power thing or some sort of caregiver instinct; the two might not even be mutually exclusive.
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Old 2021-04-18, 16:07   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Itlandm View Post
So now our hero has three potential future lovers: The one he wants, the one who wants him, and the one who needs him. Given his personality, it is pretty easy to see which one he would go for. We saw the same thing with Pet Girl of Sakurasou: Evidently the most appealing trait possible in a Japanese woman is being dependent on the man. I find this a bit disturbing, to be honest.
Well, in context I don't think Yoshida wants Sayu to be dependent on him, he wants her to become more dependent on herself and not on other people, least of all older men.

Not that he's not benefiting from having her around, but the main reason he's keeping her housed and fed is because he's worried she'll fall back into how she's been living for the past six months.

There are definitely relationships where the romantic interests feel like they need each other from a physical or emotional standpoint, but I don't think that's the only barometer. I don't think that's the only reason Sorata fell for Mashiro, at any rate.
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Old 2021-04-18, 16:44   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
But I may not be thinking of the same thing as you, because it seems to me these kinds of selflessness are common in anime. MCs are nice and sacrifice themselves because they just are. Some provide a backstory - ranging from convincing to contrived - for how they became that way. But ultimately they're just conveniently that way, and to me that's not as interesting.
I agree Yoshida's kindness is leaning on the convenient side, especially how ep2 hammered that fact with Nishima, but aside of it being necessary for the established narrative, I honestly believe it is a bit different compared to other goody 2 shoes MC. In Yoshida's case, it is a mixture of altruism but also outrage and frustration. Additionally, he also realize the potential shortcomings of his decision on several angles and do talk about it with someone else. Because of this, he looks more "real" to me than most MC who would do the "good thing" without thinking twice about it, which is way worse.

But ultimately, everything depends on how his relationship will evolve with everyone, not just with Sayu.
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Anyway, in this case, it probably also helps that he's started shaving and wearing ironed shirts.
Not really no. It is quite obvious Mishima already had a crush on him and just was worried she might have no chance given the recent shaving etc. Likewise, it is very unlikely Gotou suddenly took an interest in Yoshida just because of that. if anything, I suspect Gotou lied about her boyfriend and basically just bailed out when Yoshida was too "aggressive" in his approach. Then every girls went with their wild conclusion about Yoshida.
Quote:
So now our hero has three potential future lovers: The one he wants, the one who wants him, and the one who needs him. Given his personality, it is pretty easy to see which one he would go for. We saw the same thing with Pet Girl of Sakurasou: Evidently the most appealing trait possible in a Japanese woman is being dependent on the man. I find this a bit disturbing, to be honest.
How on earth can you make such conclusion when the series you mentioned are arguably not remotely similar? Yoshida hated that about Sayu which is the very reason why he made sure she doesn't do the same crap about not valuing herself, which would ultimately makes her depending on others if she doesn't change.
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Old 2021-04-18, 22:17   Link #67
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Given the first two episodes, it feels like they are setting up for Sayu being discovered at home by his female boss who likely isn't being entirely honest about her current relationship status (if they go with the common trope she would have recently broken up from her long-term relationship) > drama > MC partially forgiven since he is a trustworthy/reliable/niceguy > Sayu accepts the condition of more actively working towards her independence from MC with a realistic timeline and goals (i.e. full-time housewife and saying in MC's home forever with no plan being unacceptable) > +1 adult female interested in MC reluctantly supporting Sayu as a mentor and monitor for the situation, with the determination to kick her out if she slacks > Sayu gets a part-time job as seen in the ED and gains a female friend her age > ??? > Sayu probably decides to return home willingly after gaining self-confidence as part of her character development to face the issues with her family properly and graduate(?) > ??? > timeskip > happy(?) end.

Or not... but given the show is taking itself seriously and Sayu's background having rather dark overtones, I think we can rule out escaping reality fluff as the end game. The major oversight by MC at this point, is the inability for anybody to visit his home while Sayu is there. Drama waiting to happen.
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Old 2021-04-18, 23:21   Link #68
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Or not... but given the show is taking itself seriously and Sayu's background having rather dark overtones, I think we can rule out escaping reality fluff as the end game. The major oversight by MC at this point, is the inability for anybody to visit his home while Sayu is there. Drama waiting to happen.
Ironically the first thing he did is ask Gotou to come over and now that can never happen .
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Old 2021-04-19, 01:25   Link #69
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Or not... but given the show is taking itself seriously and Sayu's background having rather dark overtones, I think we can rule out escaping reality fluff as the end game. The major oversight by MC at this point, is the inability for anybody to visit his home while Sayu is there. Drama waiting to happen.
Nice, I'd like to see an anime ending in the protagonist's arrest. No sarcasm.
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Old 2021-04-19, 10:31   Link #70
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We open up with Sayu having sex with a guy, and she looks so unemotional and out of it during the act. Like, if she's going to have sex, she should at least enjoy it. And the guy calls her "Miyuki," so has she been using fake names with some of the guys she's been with? Is Sayu her real name ?

Man, Sayu is so emotionally messed up that she just can't fathom a living situation where a guy doesn't want to sleep with her, so much so that the only way she can think of to cement her living there or to make someone not want to throw her out is to use her body and seduce them. I feel so bad for her .

Is Yoshida ever going to clue in to Mishima's feelings? She's not being very covert about them, especially with that hug. She's just so earnest, which is very cute .

Gotou looking at Yoshida with that longing look...yeah, I think she's got it bad for him .

Sayu is so bothered by Mishima, but in reality Mishima is a good person who is willing to sit with a lonely high school girl in the middle of the night and hear her out. I guess since she's ran away a few times herself, she can relate to being in that position .

So Sayu's parents weren't bad people, they were nice, but something about that kindness made Sayu uncomfortable? Because she doesn't believe in unconditional kindness? And then Sayu talks about doing something that she couldn't tell someone close to her. I wonder what really happened .

Man, Yoshida's lucky Mishima just assumed he and Sayu were related and she's staying with him instead of going to the other obvious conclusion .

Say makes one last ditch attempt to seduce Yoshida to make him happy and want to keep her around, bringing out her sexy underwear and practically bearing it all to him and the audience (especially with those camera angles). She's so desperate to feel needed and to want him to need her that it's depressing. But while Yoshida can admit she's very cute and attractive, any sane person would, he's not in love with her and does not want to sleep with her .

In truth, what Yoshida appreciates about Sayu is her companionship and having her around in his life. And that's all he needs. And that seems to lead the pair to a more genuine and honest living situation moving forward .
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Old 2021-04-19, 11:38   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
We open up with Sayu having sex with a guy, and she looks so unemotional and out of it during the act. Like, if she's going to have sex, she should at least enjoy it. And the guy calls her "Miyuki," so has she been using fake names with some of the guys she's been with? Is Sayu her real name ?
She has done that solely for survival, so it is doubtful she would just enjoy it.
Also, Sayu is definitely her real name: Yoshida confirmed that with her Student ID card. So She simply used an alias with the other men who probably didn't care about the details so long they could do her.

Quote:
So Sayu's parents weren't bad people, they were nice, but something about that kindness made Sayu uncomfortable? Because she doesn't believe in unconditional kindness? And then Sayu talks about doing something that she couldn't tell someone close to her. I wonder what really happened .
Sayu has been shown extremely insecure but also being fond of Yoshida (whether it is love or not is another subject). She is probably conflicted about the fact that Yoshida has been so kind to her without anything solid in return. To her, merely doing chores doesn't make up for the shelter, food, misc stuff but also the emotionnal support and even attempt to teach her few things. If you add the fact she felt jealous, she is probably afraid of admitting to Yoshida she wants him for herself, because unlike other people until now, he was basically the only person who cared about her.

In a way, Sayu is afraid of being selfish burden to him, hence why she told Mishima of her fears. Since Mishima told her to trust Yoshida in kind, Sayu opened herself regarding her reasons for her choices and confronted Yoshida while trusting him.
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Old 2021-04-19, 16:57   Link #72
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She has done that solely for survival, so it is doubtful she would just enjoy it.
That just makes it even worse .
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Old 2021-04-19, 17:33   Link #73
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That just makes it even worse .
It's really sad she basically tied her self worth with sex. I guess that what happens when she's been living that way for so long. Glad Yoshida is knocking some sense into her
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Old 2021-04-19, 19:48   Link #74
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Spoiler for ep3:
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Old 2021-04-19, 21:29   Link #75
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Spoiler for ep3:
MC made his point since the first ep. that the way he acted wasn't nice or kind - It's normal. It was those guys who want to have sex with runaway JK that have shit tease.
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Old 2021-04-19, 22:57   Link #76
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That was one way to start an episode. Though it's clear that this is exactly what Sayu has been doing this whole time. She's had to turn to guys that were willing to take in a girl off the streets with the intention to have sex with her. Definitely sucks that she's been doing all this and just taking it the whole time. Not getting any enjoyment since it was just a means to an end. For the sake of being able to stay on the run and have a place to sleep. But the benefits as far as she saw them were limited. Once they had enough of her or got more worried about what might happen to them if she was found they got rid of her.

No surprise of course that Sayu is uneasy. Yoshida is a good guy, but he has been the very rare exception. Hard to just believe that she can stay as long as she needs to. Even though that is the case and she might as well just believe it already. But someone that has spent that much time around the wrong people and feeling that vulnerable would worry. After all the moment he doesn't want her around she can't be there. That's a legit thing to fear.

I'm impressed by the moves that Mishima made here. She's going for it. Though I hope she holds back on lashing out from jealousy. That's not going to win her any points. But she certainly has some hope. She's a cute and fun girl. Plenty of potential for her to win the guy over even if Gotou is more his type.

Obviously her story was in part about her relationship with Yoshida. But I wonder how her relationship really was with her parents. Is it the people she ran into that put this idea that kindness always comes with a cost or was it her home life? Her parents were nice to her but she had to do something in exchange for it?

Yeah, he's not currently in love with her. Which is a good baseline. He really shouldn't be in love with her at this point. Though honestly I can't see this playing out in a way where he doesn't at some point. But it really was important for them to talk about this. Yeah she made some aggressive moves and frankly so did he. But they needed to talk and really get this out. What she's had to do, what she was feeling, and what he was feeling. Yoshida isn't a saint or inhuman. He had desires and feelings. And yeah, he's enjoying having her around. She's making life more fun and he's getting to enjoy that. His place is much nicer, he's keeping himself cleaner, and there's a warm meal waiting. Beyond that she's just a really enjoyable person to have around. But it was important for her to hear that. And for him to not just be this saint that was sheltering her. Obviously he does still want her to treat herself better, and to help her to a position where she doesn't have to live the way she has. But there is benefits for him.
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Old 2021-04-19, 23:17   Link #77
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It's normal.
Hmm... No.
The anime has gone out of its way to state the protagonist is kind, and has also shown the protagonist and co. hinting at the trouble that would occur if people found out about the girl. So it's not normal.
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Old 2021-04-20, 00:52   Link #78
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Hmm... No.
The anime has gone out of its way to state the protagonist is kind, and has also shown the protagonist and co. hinting at the trouble that would occur if people found out about the girl. So it's not normal.
yeah just because the mc says which he "is normal' don't means which he is indeed too kind even for "normal", and to be fair having sex with her also would be "normal" it's not like they raped her or anything, anime and manga and novel made clear which was "her" which started all the sex stuff, in the same way they used her to have some fun she used then, it aways was her seducing the guys to have a play to stay, i'm not saying which they are "saints and bla bla bla and don't have they share to blame, but the majority of the problem comes from her, because in the same way none of the guys too ker serious and tried to have a serious relationship with her she was the same, she only saw the guys as a "way to have food and a place to sleep", it was "almost like a prostituition "i means almost" not really, specially in japan where prostitution is "illegal"(from law stand point but they make a huge close eyes here and allow it as long everyone is 18+ or you have some "scap goats" which make this law really ambiguous and allow prostituition over some specific terms "even for teens", but this is not the point here.

Another thing to take in account, even if him have sex with her it is not a "crime" because the "legal age for sex is 16+, it's can be view as "morally wrong but he can't be arrested if they have a allowed relationship(not rape and neither prostitution), the issue for him with the police would be because of her family, him having a "runaway school girl would be saw as a sort of "kidnapping" or something like that, because her current age at 17 years totally allows him to sleep with her without any issue, the only issue would be her "parents" that can be the issue, since she for law and take care of herself she can be saw as a minor, then the minimum they need is have her parents being aware which she is with him, otherwise they can open a case calling it kidnapping or those stuff, but legaly in terms of "sex" they can have it, indeed is very common for young japaneses girls around her age to prefer "adults" rater than peoples from her age in japan and this sort of marriage is somehow common, to have "high school womans marring adults(i means not like majority of then, but is something common to happen).

And to be fair again i don't believe which all the guys which sleep with her where "assholes" monsters" just because sleep with her also not saying which they where "nice peoples", but if you think about the other side, some of then probably were your "forever alone" hikikomore, then probably some of then could had just "tried to help her as the mc" but they could not hold against her "seduction moves", since they were losers loners and unlike the mc at one point could not hold themself anymore and surrended to the temptation, while others just cheap take the offer, not saying which you aways was supposed to "accept the free sex offer" but it also not "easy and simple as some peoples believe", not everyone have the iron mind to resist to the temptation and don't means which they are monsters because of that, again i'm saying that based on her age and the fact which it was totally legal, from law vision, if indeed she was minor like 15 or less then is another story but since she was no more a minor then things changes a lot.
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Old 2021-04-20, 01:47   Link #79
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Hmm... No.
The anime has gone out of its way to state the protagonist is kind, and has also shown the protagonist and co. hinting at the trouble that would occur if people found out about the girl. So it's not normal.
Kindness doesn't make it particularly out of ordinary and whatnot, it is more about how runaway girls -could- end up in a shitty situation where they meet no one but non decent guys. The simple fact she is still on the run demonstrate that other people didn't use "less kind" options to them such as calling the police/child welfare center. She simply drew the short end of a stick, and while I doubt most situations like this end up in a happy note, I don't believe someone caring about a person like Sayu is abnormal.
Honestly, you are too focalized on the "kindness" part of Yoshida: regardless how much of a plot device it is, it isn't like he is a saint or anything. His motivations aren't really outlandish either. Yes, his decision to take her in without anything specific in return is the outlier out there, but not accepting her advance or not asking her unsavory things is what's normal.

Finally, regarding your previous comment, I might be too naive there, but considering she could go on for six months without being pregnant, that condom packing in that scene and Sayu's personality in general, I believe she had protected sex thus far. This also makes sense for the dudes: making her pregnant would turn her into a much bigger headache than simply giving her shelter, which was already not something they were willing to do on a long term.
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anime and manga and novel made clear which was "her" which started all the sex stuff, in the same way they used her to have some fun she used then, it aways was her seducing the guys to have a play to stay, i'm not saying which they are "saints and bla bla bla and don't have they share to blame, but the majority of the problem comes from her
No, as far how the anime went and how I could check the Manga and LN afterwards, it was never implied Sayu did that first. It is heavily implied no one bothered giving an option aside of sleeping with them.

Sayu's mistake was to believe it is normal to accept such conditions. But there is no way you can conclude it is "her fault first and foremost". Any decent adult would actually discuss this kind of issue and simply redirect her to some help or contact authorities.
Quote:
she only saw the guys as a "way to have food and a place to sleep", it was "almost like a prostituition "i means almost" not really, specially in japan where prostitution is "illegal"(from law stand point but they make a huge close eyes here and allow it as long everyone is 18+ or you have some "scap goats" which make this law really ambiguous and allow prostituition over some specific terms "even for teens", but this is not the point here.
I'm pretty certain the issue with the law is that it would be incredibly difficult to even prove prostitution is taking place or people actually reporting that because they don't notice that.
Quote:
And to be fair again i don't believe which all the guys which sleep with her where "assholes" monsters" just because sleep with her also not saying which they where "nice peoples", but if you think about the other side, some of then probably were your "forever alone" hikikomore, then probably some of then could had just "tried to help her as the mc" but they could not hold against her "seduction moves", since they were losers loners and unlike the mc at one point could not hold themself anymore and surrended to the temptation, while others just cheap take the offer, not saying which you aways was supposed to "accept the free sex offer" but it also not "easy and simple as some peoples believe", not everyone have the iron mind to resist to the temptation and don't means which they are monsters because of that, again i'm saying that based on her age and the fact which it was totally legal, from law vision, if indeed she was minor like 15 or less then is another story but since she was no more a minor then things changes a lot.
Regardless if Sayu seduced them or not, they were absolutely not forced to do her. Likewise, they were not forced to shelter her either. Sayu is obviously responsible for taking this option as "normal", but there is no way you can justify men taking advantage of the situation simply because Sayu "consented" on paper.
No one is going to argue there should be any criminal charge, since both parties were consenting and reached the legal age of consent. But morally speaking, it is plainly obvious those men should either have refused or have offered her other alternatives. Yoshida's decision to take her in inconditionnally is obviously not what's expected (and aside of the caveats, it is also normal for not giving shelter to a complete stranger due to safety concerns without being certain of their character). But as Yoshida himself stated in his narration in episode 1, there are other solutions, even if those guys didn't really empathize with her. That's plain decency.
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Old 2021-04-20, 02:43   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Kindness doesn't make it particularly out of ordinary and whatnot, it is more about how runaway girls -could- end up in a shitty situation where they meet no one but non decent guys. The simple fact she is still on the run demonstrate that other people didn't use "less kind" options to them such as calling the police/child welfare center. She simply drew the short end of a stick, and while I doubt most situations like this end up in a happy note, I don't believe someone caring about a person like Sayu is abnormal.
Honestly, you are too focalized on the "kindness" part of Yoshida: regardless how much of a plot device it is, it isn't like he is a saint or anything. His motivations aren't really outlandish either. Yes, his decision to take her in without anything specific in return is the outlier out there, but not accepting her advance or not asking her unsavory things is what's normal.

Finally, regarding your previous comment, I might be too naive there, but considering she could go on for six months without being pregnant, that condom packing in that scene and Sayu's personality in general, I believe she had protected sex thus far. This also makes sense for the dudes: making her pregnant would turn her into a much bigger headache than simply giving her shelter, which was already not something they were willing to do on a long term
being "too kind" is part of yoshida he is pretty much you generic super kind harem mc, which aways will be "a awesome gentleman to all womans,( i do read manga and it's without any doubts make him a lot annoying many times even going beyond being realistic). but "aways refusing "romance" because some x reasons which make him looks dumb, because this don't prevent him from keep rising ship flags like a crazy desperate guy for love.

Quote:
. No, as far how the anime went and how I could check the Manga and LN afterwards, it was never implied Sayu did that first. It is heavily implied no one bothered giving an option aside of sleeping with them.
what i wanted to means here is which she already had sex before it, in school, or she was no more virgin, i wanted to means no one one day called her and foolled and take her virginity, she know about sex knows which she is hot/cute and saw the guys lust and "used it in her favor" to take a shelter while running away

Quote:
Sayu's mistake was to believe it is normal to accept such conditions. But there is no way you can conclude it is "her fault first and foremost". Any decent adult would actually discuss this kind of issue and simply redirect her to some help or contact authorities.
I'm pretty certain the issue with the law is that it would be incredibly difficult to even prove prostitution is taking place or people actually reporting that because they don't notice that.
the police is aware a good exemple is the covid and the help payment for the unemployed, a lot of womans and even guys working on it, also ended getting the money and many peoples complained but in the end the goverment helped then because while you had peoples complains overal majority was favorable to help those too then they ended helping, the government really knows about it, the thing is which it is a huge market which give a lot of money to then and they make part of the "japanese circle of life(work) and as i told japan have some shades "scapgoats which in the ends allow this sort of thing, because the law is really a lot dubious about what means "prostitution" and how bad it can be, having a lot o loop holes to be used, as i told for what i learned is really a lot complicated but in the end the govern just prefer to "pretend nothing is happening, because again it's part of they "cicle life" and also they already are again having some politicians try to make it legal again as it was in the past( it was due to western influence which it turned illegal in the past).

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Regardless if Sayu seduced them or not, they were absolutely not forced to do her. Likewise, they were not forced to shelter her either. Sayu is obviously responsible for taking this option as "normal", but there is no way you can justify men taking advantage of the situation simply because Sayu "consented" on paper.
No one is going to argue there should be any criminal charge, since both parties were consenting and reached the legal age of consent. But morally speaking, it is plainly obvious those men should either have refused or have offered her other alternatives. Yoshida's decision to take her in inconditionnally is obviously not what's expected (and aside of the caveats, it is also normal for not giving shelter to a complete stranger due to safety concerns without being certain of their character). But as Yoshida himself stated in his narration in episode 1, there are other solutions, even if those guys didn't really empathize with her. That's plain decency.
to be clear i'm not saying which was only her fault, but it make clear which all started with her, when she run away and started to use her body as "trade" to have some shelter, she already started "broken" as we learn, she come from her home where for her being "kind" is something impossible and she just keep the same police and in the same way they used her she used then, not saying which she was having "pleasure" with then but she was getting what she wanted, which was a shelter and some food until she become too troublesome for then to keep her which also was a crap thing too from then,

what i wanted to means is which everything started from her, and her messed idea about "kindness and they just make it worst by making her feel right about what she believes, which now she is learning again with a "king of kindness harem mc in yoshida form.

and while i do agree the most logical option would be call the police, but as youshida told it probably would not fix the things since she could just run away again and keep the cicle as long she keep don't believing in kindness.
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Last edited by Blueknight78; 2021-04-20 at 03:36.
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