A friendly reminder...

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Besides, I don't see you making any big strides in releasing other shows =)

... I can't because I don't have the resources to do so. But just think of all the groups that participate in oversubbing...

[Deacon Blues]

-___________________-;;

*points to classified thread*

Happy hunting?

Okay, so... if you think that only ONE group should sub something, what are you thoughts on another group resubbing it if the first group fails? D:

[Eeknay]

I don't know if this has been answered already, but how many is too many? How many groups does oversubbing classify as? (Question aimed primarily at LytHka, others feel free to comment).

[Kanna]

When there's more than 3 or 4 is how I would classify it. Of course there are always exceptions to this rule. If the group sucks, then they don't count, because most of the time I just ignore them completely.

[LytHka]

I'd agree with Kanna.

Starks, beat it.

[bayoab]

3 or 4 decent or better groups is about the limit. More than 3 shitty groups is oversubbing too.

[Tiberium Wolf]

I dont get it why ppl are bitching over oversubbing. If there a lot of groups subbing it already and a new group starts too then you mean they shouldn't just because other ppl are doing already? Saying "these decent/better groups are doing it already" is subjective to each person opinion. If a group subs a serie so that means the staff there surely is interested in show and wants to distro their work. Don't tell me that most staff works on projects that they aren't interested. That's slave work!

[Random Otaku]

Err, He was merely making a point that there are a LOT of unfansubbed series out there and a group should think a bit before subbing a series that's already being horded. Maybe they can find another unsubbed series they like, since the fact that they don't do one series they like doesn't mean they won't find another, one of those unfansubbed ones. All that was asked of everyone is to take the bigger picture into consideration and see if you can enjoy Fansubbing WHILE giving more to the fan base.
Fansub a previously unfansubbed series you like > Help Oversub a series you like.
Oh dear, does that mean LytHka has a point? Now that's a scary thought, isn't it?

[Quarkboy]

People need to realize something about fansubbing: There are 2 basic steps:

1. Subtitle show you like.

2. Distribute to other people that like the show.

Oversubbing has problems with step 2. If 4 groups have already subbed a show, chances are you're not going to distribute to any more people than would have gotten the show already. You'd just take some of the leachers from the other groups instead.

If you do a show simply because you like it, without reguard to whether it would cause more people to watch it, then you aren't really fansubbing. You're just self-subbing. If you are claiming that fansubbing has nothing to do with who downloads and watches your releases, you are wrong. It's an integral, no, in fact, crucial part of the process.
Fansubbers need to consider before they do something: Who am I subbing this for? Just to satisfy my own desire? Or because I feel I can contribute to how the show is percieved in the community?

Sometimes subbing a show that is already subbed is needed. Especially if the only groups that have done it have poor translation quality. And people have a natural tendancy to sub shows they like the best. But you have to realize that liking a show isn't the only thing you should consider when deciding what show to work on. Are you really contributing something to the scene, or are you just creating more noise.

On a side note, people have said choice is useful. And while choice in translation style is nice, I'd say choice in anime to watch itself is a far more important choice to have. I'd rather choose between watching "fighting beauty woolong" and "kashimashi" than 2 different version of "kashimashi"... wouldn't you?

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

I'd rather choose between watching "fighting beauty woolong" and "kashimashi" than 2 different version of "kashimashi"... wouldn't you?

Eh? That's a tough choice. I might rather have to choose between 2 different versions of Kashimashi than watch another episode of Fighting Beauty Woolong! I might rather watch BOTH versions of Kashimashi.

Couldn't you give me the option of something good opposite Kashimashi?

[deathbygirl]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

But you have to realize that liking a show isn't the only thing you should consider when deciding what show to work on. Are you really contributing something to the scene, or are you just creating more noise(?)

But who are you (not singling you out Quark, but using "you" as a figure of speech for anyone in a position who might suggest this train of thought) to tell people to not work on one show or another? Working on a show that isn't enjoyed by the staff isn't fansubbing; it's menial labor. I'm sure many know that work on one episode takes quite a bit of time, and like someone said before (sorry, forgot the handle of the person!) it takes a lot of effort to watch an episode four-five times for a series you enjoy. Unless the objective of the group is receiving publicity (and publicity alone), I have to reiterate that no person has the right to tell another to not work on something they enjoy working on.

Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this "I want to see more variety in fansubs, but on the condition that it's not me taking a chance and covering different series" methodology? (And for those who actively do take chances on different series that may have not received attention [or those who continue to work on older, classic anime series that many won't even consider], you have my sincere apologies) If you're so sick and tired of it, whether you're an experienced member of so-and-so group or an aspiring contributer, don't contribute to oversubbing at all and work on those said projects. I don't think being an elder contributer from any established group deserves the right to tell others to seek non-subbed (or undersubbed) projects and not pursue the same goal themselves. Why don't they start the trend themselves, and perhaps other groups will see what they're doing, follow their footsteps, and take more chances? This "preaching from a distance" (i.e. hypocrisy) is what really bothers me most about the entire subject, alongside many getting upset over factors that don't even concern them (i.e. "I'm so mad because I think other groups' resources are being wasted").

So what say you, "experienced" and "established" contributers of the fansubbing community? Care to take on some responsibility yourselves, or are you going to keep passing the torch (or rather, impose it) on "lesser" groups? We can play this "Oversubbing is a waste of your groups' resources (but never mine - by the way, this isn't selfish at all)" versus "People should work on what they want to work on (because, uh, it's their time and effort)" game as long as you want, but trying to make other groups live up to your expectations is truly a waste of everyone's time.

[Quarkboy]

Last time I checked, I'm currently translating 3 shows which are being subtitled by one and only one group. And if a show has already been subbed by someone, I won't pick it up. Is that good enough for you?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Eh? That's a tough choice. I might rather have to choose between 2 different versions of Kashimashi than watch another episode of Fighting Beauty Woolong! I might rather watch BOTH versions of Kashimashi.

Couldn't you give me the option of something good opposite Kashimashi?

But that's just the thing... Just because YOU chose Kashimashi over woolong doesn't mean everyone else would make that choice. I'm sure there are people out there that would appreciate the show (I actually haven't watched it...) but, the statement still holds. And are you willing to deprive THOSE people of getting to see what they want just so you can watch 2 different versions of Kashimashi?

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

I dont get it why ppl are bitching over oversubbing. If there a lot of groups subbing it already and a new group starts too then you mean they shouldn't just because other ppl are doing already?

Yes. That is what we are saying. There have been times when I have wanted to do a show but I just sat back and watched someone subs instead of doing it.

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

Saying "these decent/better groups are doing it already" is subjective to each person opinion. If a group subs a serie so that means the staff there surely is interested in show and wants to distro their work. Don't tell me that most staff works on projects that they aren't interested. That's slave work!

First of all, quality is not subjective. The most important part, the translation, is either good or mediocre or bad. There are certain words/phrases/etc depending on the show where you can play the "I think this is a better translation" game but for the most part, there is only 1-2 correct translations and as many rewordings of that line that exist. The rest of the work (editing, timing, karaoke, encoding) is subjective.

Also, there are groups that will sub series where the staff does not want to do it and is only doing it for the leechers. A certain large group comes to mind that begins with Sh and ends with bs. It is not slave work. It is appealing to your fanbase and trying to get more fans.

It is also interesting that groups that are fans of shows (and name themselves DBZ-fansubs or similar) tend to produce a lower quality release than a generic group of non-fans from another group. (Call this the perceived knowledge effect.)

In the end I think most people would rather spend 26 minutes watching a good quality release than spending 2 hours making another copy. I know I could use those extra 90 min to go do something else good.

Originally Posted by deathbygirl

Working on a show that isn't enjoyed by the staff isn't fansubbing; it's menial labor.

See above. It doesn't have to be. I didn't really watch some of the projects a.f.k. was working on and it was still fun from a technical point of view. It really depends on the person's attitude. If you go into it thinking, "i don't want to do this", of course it will be menial labor.

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

But that's just the thing... Just because YOU chose Kashimashi over woolong doesn't mean everyone else would make that choice. I'm sure there are people out there that would appreciate the show (I actually haven't watched it...) but, the statement still holds. And are you willing to deprive THOSE people of getting to see what they want just so you can watch 2 different versions of Kashimashi?

Yes. There are certain people who have no taste in anime, and they need to be taught it. Really shitty anime should not be subbed to appeal to the 5 fans who like it. (See Kaiketsu Zorori which nobody over the age of 10 inside Japan likes.) A handful of really loud and noisy people want all of these generic tv-tokyo shows that are made to appeal to boys under 12 to be subbed that are really just horrible. (See also generic harem shows, but these have a fanbase for the obvious reason...) Yes, I am forcing my elitism on others here (and aware that I watch a show that is this type). But if you want a subbed copy, those 5 fans should get together, find a translator and sub it.

[Twistey]

And the Drama continues what will happen next time? Tune in for Lythka's Drama Corner.

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

If you do a show simply because you like it, without reguard to whether it would cause more people to watch it, then you aren't really fansubbing. You're just self-subbing. If you are claiming that fansubbing has nothing to do with who downloads and watches your releases, you are wrong. It's an integral, no, in fact, crucial part of the process.

OK, I don't agree with that definition. Fansub video files aren't called that just because fans download these, it's primarily because fans create them. Anime was fansubbed in the beginning because fans took up the job to create translations. They were the first "fans" to deal with the terminology. The fan community was the second generation of fans to have a relationship to the fansub tapes, encodes, timed-text files. The first fansubbing groups did the famous "Fans for Fans" tag and that is, by my logic, the main reason why leeching fans think they are the integral part of the whole "fansub" and "fansubbing" terminology.
But you brought up a valuable point about distribution. Distribution, is of course IMO, not a part of the term "fansub", still, the distribution is always present. I'm sure nobody in their right mind fansubbed a series only to be watched by the creator/translator, there was always somebody else who had to see the final product. It is just a question on what kind of scale the distribution should take place. The most common is of course large scale distribution over all P2P programs, mainly BitTorrent. But it can be quite smaller. For instance, I'm very much pro dropping support to public BT distribution, mainly because it attracts so much attention from legal firms that it might just be the end of fansubbing as we know it one day. IRC is a perfect playground for both the fans and fansubbers and it is beneficial to the community with the new onslaught of regular IRC channel users and new fansubbers. There wouldn't have been much fansubbers these days if they hadn't joined IRC networks/channels. But the distribution can be even smaller. Group members can only distribute it among themselves and/or their faithful distro or just show them to their offline friends in anime clubs etc. That still doesn't make anyone a "self-subber." I have to admit though, I was really impressed when I heard about the group Ripping Gods who just made lists of what they had ripped and never shared with the public. Still, these might have been nasty acts. If you are "self-subbing", you should never leak the release information to the public.
My conviction is that it is a noble deed if fansubbers share their subs with the public as long as that doesn't endanger their social stabiliy (beware of lawsuits).

However, this might be quite fun to think about:

Let's say a bunch of .hack fans start subbing .hack//Roots. They will sub for "themselves" primarily because they are fans and that is the only right reason why you should be fansubbing, by them, still, they'll distribute the show to others via Internet. Their ethical stance on fansub production is that they cease distribution if the show gets licensed. The show eventually gets licensed and they are confronted by their ethics. Their options are:

1.) Drop the show and wait for DVDs (and watch RAWs or other fansubs)
2.) Replace their ethical stance and continue subbing

But are these two really their only options? I'm adding one more:

3.) Continue subbing but stop wide-scale Internet distribution (keep it between group members/distro only).

It might be fun to think about why that doesn't happen (very often). Here are some questions which came over me:

-Are we really fans of a show at all if we can't finish it for "ourselves"?
-Why are in this instance other ("unethical") groups good enough for us to watch, yet we still contributed to oversubbing the show at first?
-Do fansubbers doing "licensed" shows really fansub for themselves when they could've just kept post-licensing-produced fansubs for themselves? Why *do* they release them to the public? Do they feel that they need to share or are they doing it just for the fame?

[Bot1]

i thought RG just released over ed2k...

[Quarkboy]

In response to the Lyt's post and points, let me state my somewhat blunt position:

In this day and age, any fansub group which does not have torrents available of their releases are not helping the community grow, and only catering to a small (and getting smaller) group of fans...

The only way to get people who may not already be fans of the show you are subbing to watch it is to use bittorrent. Ignorance is no excuse, bittorrent is simple, and takes hardly any badnwith compared to irc. Any group that doesn't release with bt does so by choice, and as far as I'm concerned that choice is one that SPECIFICALLY LIMITS the audience to those who already know about and want to watch the show.

Well, to hedge a bit, there is a slight benefit to subbing something no matter how small the initial distro is, since once it's out there it's "out there" on the internet... but in general people don't find it unless they were specifically looking for it.

So in short, if you don't make all reasonable effort to distro the show to the widest range possible (and by that I mean bittorrent), I feel like you aren't really fulfilling the purpose of fansubbing as I see it: To promote the growth of anime and anime fans in non-japanese countries. You're simply fulfilling your own desire to satisfy your small little circle of friends, and maybe your own sense of self accomplishment. You're free to do that if you want, but don't expect me to praise you for it.

[deathbygirl]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Last time I checked, I'm currently translating 3 shows which are being subtitled by one and only one group. And if a show has already been subbed by someone, I won't pick it up. Is that good enough for you?

Originally Posted by deathbygirl

(And for those who actively do take chances on different series that may have not received attention [or those who continue to work on older, classic anime series that many won't even consider], you have my sincere apologies)

As I said, it wasn't directed solely at you. Please read the post in its entirety, instead of so quickly defending yourself and your position.

Anyhow, my last point still stands to (most) everyone else.

[LordBrian]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Last time I checked, I'm currently translating 3 shows which are being subtitled by one and only one group. And if a show has already been subbed by someone, I won't pick it up. Is that good enough for you?

That still doesn't give you the authority to dictate what other groups should work on. Nor does it validate your point that subbing for yourself is any less legit than subbing for "the scene."