[Manga] Naruto Chapter 559 Discussion

[Kallen4life]

yeah, Tobi has to have Madara's face under that mask

also, maybe the long-haired one with Kisame was actually this edo!Madara and was alive back then


did we see a long-haired Madara/Tobi at any point again (other then the first meeting with Kisame and the vs Hashirama fight flashback) ?


the one who approached Itachi for the massacre (first mask design) had long or short hair ? I think long ...

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

yeah, Tobi has to have Madara's face under that mask

also, maybe the long-haired one with Kisame was actually this edo!Madara and was alive back then


did we see a long-haired Madara/Tobi at any point again (other then the first meeting with Kisame and the vs Hashirama fight flashback) ?


the one who approached Itachi for the massacre (first mask design) had long or short hair ? I think long ...

It was long, but this really raises questions about which person we've seen for a bunch of scenes.

Did Minato fight the real Madara or Tobi? Which one was it who helped Itachi slaughter the clan? Which one was it who founded Akatsuki in the beginning?

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

there must be a serious consequence for such a powerful technique

So the eye that the sage supposedly had can't even do what Kabuto learned in like a month so easily?

[ntherblast]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

One thing for sure,,,

Madara was still Alive when Nagato was still a baby or a child

How do you know this are you the author? There could have been some prophecy that madara read about and nagato was involved

[Endrance]

Seems unlikely if madara died way back then that he'd know nagato and as far as a prophecy when have they ever named names in one of those. That being said i give up on speculating at least this early though i do still think tobi is madara in some form or another

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ntherblast

How do you know this are you the author? There could have been some prophecy that madara read about and nagato was involved

Madara was resurrected believing that Nagato had finally grew powerful enough to rise him from the dead with Rinne-Tensei before Muu told him that he was mistaken and that it had been done with Edo-Tensei instead.
This is no prophecy, this was personal knowledge.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

One thing to take into account as well is the fact that Kisame recognized Tobi (long hair) as Madara the first time they met and recognized him again when short-haired Tobi showed him his face years later.

There's also Sasuke who saw Madara's face, so he confirmed that it's the same guy who was shown in Itachi's genjutsu and the statue at the VotE. So if either the statue or the Madara of Itachi's history lesson genjutsu didn't look like Tobi then Sasuke should have mentioned that already.


One really interesting thing is the summoned Madara's age and outfit. Until now all the zombies did look exactly like at the time they died, Chiyo was not resurrected as a young woman at her prime, Nagato was resurrected with white hair, etc. ( sure Sasori is an exception, but a piece of flesh/heart would really look stupid while fighting ). So if this assumption about Edo Tensei is true for Madara then he couldn't have known Nagato. However it was confirmed that he wanted himself resurrected using the rinnegan, he also had EMS, so having all these magical eyes maybe he could manipulate time, maybe not exactly time travel, but something similar. Also Tobi can teleport people to some secret dimension, maybe time flows at a different rate in that special dimension, maybe Nagato was held in that dimension while in the real world decades passed.

Madara having the rinnegan is really unlikely, if he had the rinnegan when he fought the 1st hokage he could have won. There has to be a reason why Nagato is an Uzumaki, if the Sage of 6 paths was an Uzumaki then it would explain why would Madara implant eyes into Nagato, because his Uzumaki body would evolve the eye (most likely some EMS eye) into a rinnegan as time passed.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Madara was resurrected believing that Nagato had finally grew powerful enough to rise him from the dead with Rinne-Tensei before Muu told him that he was mistaken and that it had been done with Edo-Tensei instead.
This is no prophecy, this was personal knowledge.

Perhaps the tobi-Madara was telling the truth about somehow "giving" Nagato the Rinnegan. It would seem the Madaras planned this ressurection thing long ago. Maybe its even something similar to the underworld vampires cycle, where they cycle through ressurections, with on elder "alseep" and two awake.... Something like that anyway, or perhaps when he said he wasn't complete he was speaking literally/spiritually, and needs someone strong enough to become one with the statue and perform the technique.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

There's also Sasuke who saw Madara's face, so he confirmed that it's the same guy who was shown in Itachi's genjutsu and the statue at the VotE. So if either the statue or the Madara of Itachi's history lesson genjutsu didn't look like Tobi then Sasuke should have mentioned that already.

Sasuke never got to see his face, Itachi's Amaterasu seal activated the instant Tobi's eye was visible.

One really interesting thing is the summoned Madara's age and outfit. Until now all the zombies did look exactly like at the time they died, Chiyo was not resurrected as a young woman at her prime, Nagato was resurrected with white hair, etc. ( sure Sasori is an exception, but a piece of flesh/heart would really look stupid while fighting ).

The outfit isn't really important, all the Akatsuki came back with their cloak whereas they all died without it. It's probably just artistic license as I said. His apparent youth however is a real question (though as you said there is already an exception with Sasori). One possibility is since Edo-Tensei brings back the soul of the departed and not their real body, the dead returns how their soul "thought" of themselves. Chiyo was old because that's how she thought of herself but Sasori remembered his appearence the way he crafted his puppet. The obvious problem with this theory is Nagato of course so I don't know, let's hope a flashback is coming soon to explain all this.

if the Sage of 6 paths was an Uzumaki then it would explain why would Madara implant eyes into Nagato, because his Uzumaki body would evolve the eye (most likely some EMS eye) into a rinnegan as time passed.

The original Sage wasn't an Uzumaki, a Senju or an Uchiha for that matter, he predated all of them. They are the descendants of his legacy and possess a part of his power whereas he was the sum of them all.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

yeah, Tobi has to have Madara's face under that mask

also, maybe the long-haired one with Kisame was actually this edo!Madara and was alive back then


did we see a long-haired Madara/Tobi at any point again (other then the first meeting with Kisame and the vs Hashirama fight flashback) ?


the one who approached Itachi for the massacre (first mask design) had long or short hair ? I think long ...

While I do think that Tobi is, in part, Madara, I do not agree that Tobi must have Madara's face underneath his mask. If it were as simple as that, there would be no reason for Kishimoto to keep him masked. And from what we've actually seen of Tobi's face, there are differences.

Since the Edo-Madara did know about Nagato, the pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together. Apparently Madara did survive his battle with Hashirama at the VotE. IIRC, he was badly injured from that encounter, yet still managed to obtain the Sage's eyes (Rinnegan) by some manipulation with Hashirama's dna.

There is the idea floating around that Madara could have survived his battle with Hashirama by splitting himself into two (as Muu did), and that the half of Madara that died during that battle was the half of Madara's soul that was rezzed by the Edo Tensei, while the surviving half went on to become Tobi. However, since Edo-Madara knew Nagato (as a young kid), it suggests that this is not the case. Madara, or at least part of Madara's soul, must have died when Nagato was a small child (perhaps at the time that the Rinnegan was transferred to him).

One thing that bugs me is Edo-Madara's appearance. If Madara was the 2nd Sage of the Six paths, then he should possess the Rinnegan. I suppose the eye concealed under his hair could still be a Rinnegan.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Since the Edo-Madara did know about Nagato, the pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together. Apparently Madara did survive his battle with Hashirama at the VotE. IIRC, he was badly injured from that encounter, yet still managed to obtain the Sage's eyes (Rinnegan) by some manipulation with Hashirama's dna.

I think Zetsu is the final piece. Nobody really talks about him because he just seems like a henchman, but when we finally get an explanation of exactly what he is and where he comes from then I think things will become clear. Obviously he seems like an experiment, something created in a lab, he has Hashirama's DNA. But where did he come from? Madara (the original) doesn't really seem like the "mad scientist" sort like Oro or Kabuto. I can't really see him being the creator. The "new" Madara seems to be made of the same gooey stuff so is he an advanced Zetsu clone like Hunter suggested, or something different?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sasuke never got to see his face, Itachi's Amaterasu seal activated the instant Tobi's eye was visible.

Yeah, i didn't remember that. He probably saw like 1/3 of the face, not enough. However now that i think of it, Tobi wanted to prove that he is Madara by showing his face, but he should know that Sasuke at least knows about his face from his VotE fight, and maybe even from Itachi. But then again it doesn't prove anything, since a ninja can show to others any face he wants

Originally Posted by Hunter

The original Sage wasn't an Uzumaki, a Senju or an Uchiha for that matter, he predated all of them. They are the descendants of his legacy and possess a part of his power whereas he was the sum of them all.

Yes, it's just my assumption, trying to connect the dots. If the Uzumaki are not connected somehow to the rinnegan and so to the sage then i just can't think of any reason why would Madara use an Uzumaki to be the container of the rinnegan eyes. And there are also other less important signs, for example the Uzumaki body being suitable to contain and control demons, the possibility to connect Naruto to the sage seeing how Naruto being in half kyuubi mode starts to resemble the sage which is totally different than the look of other demon hosts when they activate their demon powers. Of course all these can be a coincidence, but it's alwayf fun to make theories

[Finre]

Maybe Madara knew he was going to die and ordered Zetsu to create a clone of him and implanted his eyes and memories to the clone. In a way clone Madara is more ''Madara'' than the original since he lived longer . Also this could explain why Tobi's body is weak and Itachi's '' he is just a shell of his former self'' words.

[irrational]

Based on the actual chapter, it would seem that madara's 'right' eye has been covered by his hair (whether coincidental or planned will see next wednesday). As such i think that madara's right eye was sealed in 'tobi' (which i believe to possibly be one of zetsu's bodies) while his real self was dead.

[Raihen]

After recent OMG in Fairy Tail I thought that I won't get bigger mind blow for long time, I couldn't be more wrong. Seriously it was always something fishy with Madara/Tobi, but to be honest i didn't except something like this. He MUST be Madara or some kind of clone, somehow related to real Madara, there is no other way.
The interesting question is WHEN Nagato received his Rinnengan ? Maybe his past - Dead of the parents and live before meeting Yukiho and Konan, had been just illusion created by Madara/Tobi/Someone? So many unanswered questions. Why Madara is so young here ? Why he knows about Nagato ? Maybe there was someone else named Nagato ?
Kishimoto really trolled hard with us.

[neji-kun]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

Interestingly, though, it was short-haired Tobi that showed up during the kyuubi attack, but it was long-haired Tobi/Madara during the Uchiha massacre (though IIRC he was still wearing a mask.)

This.

I thought about this too. Does this suggest 2 separate people or some sort of clone spirit split situation?Questions Questions

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Yes, it's just my assumption, trying to connect the dots. If the Uzumaki are not connected somehow to the rinnegan and so to the sage then i just can't think of any reason why would Madara use an Uzumaki to be the container of the rinnegan eyes.

The Uzumaki were close cousin of the Senju, they too were descendant of the youngest son of the Sage and as such have inherited part of his physical power which is probably the reason Madara used one of them.
We don't know exactly how Madara did it, maybe he used him as a vessel to mix his own occular power -using his own eyes (and I mean his original ones), his EMS or maybe those of another Uchiha- or maybe something different entirely but somehow he managed to "grow" another Sage of the 6 paths ables to use Rinne-Tensei and perhaps to grow a Rinnengan entirely.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I think Zetsu is the final piece. Nobody really talks about him because he just seems like a henchman, but when we finally get an explanation of exactly what he is and where he comes from then I think things will become clear. Obviously he seems like an experiment, something created in a lab, he has Hashirama's DNA. But where did he come from? Madara (the original) doesn't really seem like the "mad scientist" sort like Oro or Kabuto. I can't really see him being the creator.

Very true, I don't think we will know the last piece of the story as long as we don't know the specific of Zetsu and his relation with Tobi the good boy, and Madara.

I wouldn't be so sure about Madara not being the "mad scientist" type however. Well ok maybe not mad scientist but take into consideration that Madara apparently went to fight against Shodai to stole his DNA in order to mix it up with his own and that considering his knowledge of Nagato he also had to set up some very complicated schemes over decades in secret to reach his ultimate goal -even beyond death.
It's true that looking at him like that in armor, busting out of his coffin in a display of sheer power he looks more like the powerful warlord type, all brawn and no much brain, but it's not quite the whole truth. Far from it in fact.

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by Hunter

One thing to take into account as well is the fact that Kisame recognized Tobi (long hair) as Madara the first time they met and recognized him again when short-haired Tobi showed him his face years later.

It does seem possible, though, that Kisame could've mistaken Madara's brother for the man himself, given how long it's been and how different either of them would look.

[Suika-Esper]

Originally Posted by Aquillion

It does seem possible, though, that Kisame could've mistaken Madara's brother for the man himself, given how long it's been and how different either of them would look.

I had thoughts that it might be Madara's brother after reading the chapter, but who knows. Who else would know the real Madara better than he? If he credited everything he's done to Madara's name to preserve his brother's legacy that would make sense. Here's why: if the story was true and he willingly gave his eyes to Madara, it would mean he'd go far enough to defend his reputation even after death. That's still a far-fetched theory though. I don't know what to believe. I'd better wait til we get more answers and save myself a headache.

If Kishimoto makes it turn out to be Obito, I'll start flipping tables.

[DragoZERO]

I hope it's Madara's brother and the Tsuchikage simply guessed who it was incorrectly.