Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[Leonardunitylim]

Originally Posted by Rasen

I see what you're saying, but I still think Tigre making the effort to reclaim her royal heritage is a major proof of friendship. From the perspective of fighting off Duke Thernadier, he gained almost nothing from helping her. He didn't get any assistance from the royal armies, and he later dealt with Thernadier in a duel. He even lost a dear father figure.

Sure it would have been to his advantage to have an ally in the royal family, but he could have just killed Thernadier first, THEN dealt with the heritage problem in safety. That he made it a priority shows that Regin is more than just some figurehead to him.

We all know that the queen isn't that type of person who would publicly execute anyone any'o how . However, keep in mind that Tigre HAD to treat her like more than just a figurehead, if not the entirety of brine would have held him responsible if anything happened to the princess of brune. You really have to imagine that every action he does is prioritizing "royalty" first , then comes the parents. This is especially true for medieval period. For the thenardier incident, he gained a ton of stuff "non-romance wise" . All his debts to Ellen were paid off by brune, Alsace is saved from future threats of that retarded dictator, he gained ludmila , Ellen and Sophie as allies, brune allying with Ellen (Tigre as middleman) and Tigre helped zhcted gained BRUNE as a potential ally( armistice ) and Alsace right now is pretty much the safest of lands "guarded and co-ruled by queen of brune, Tigre and Ellen herself.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

Its not a proof of friendship, but rather the right thing to do.
There are several reasons why Regin is important to Tigre's campaign.
- It gives him a stronger and even more valid reason to fight against the two other powers in the country. Without her others may think he is just another guy who wants to take over the throne. It will also dispel his status as a traitor (and put the label onto the other two powers).
- He ls still loyal to the royal family. He has got nothing against them, nor does he really care.
- It is the "right thing to do"
- He need her assistance in fulfilling the agreement with Ellen

But none of that has anything to do with the TIMING of it. He rushed to do it in the middle of his personal war with Thernadier. He could have done "the right thing" AFTER he killed Thernadier, and not lost Massas in the underground passages.

Instead, though, he gave it priority. Priority to a non time-critical item.

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

We all know that the queen isn't that type of person who would publicly execute anyone any'o how . However, keep in mind that Tigre HAD to treat her like more than just a figurehead, if not the entirety of brine would have held him responsible if anything happened to the princess of brune. You really have to imagine that every action he does is prioritizing "royalty" first , then comes the parents. This is especially true for medieval period. For the thenardier incident, he gained a ton of stuff "non-romance wise" . All his debts to Ellen were paid off by brune, Alsace is saved from future threats of that retarded dictator, he gained ludmila , Ellen and Sophie as allies, brune allying with Ellen (Tigre as middleman) and Tigre helped zhcted gained BRUNE as a potential ally( armistice ) and Alsace right now is pretty much the safest of lands "guarded and co-ruled by queen of brune, Tigre and Ellen herself.

As I said earlier, none of that explains the TIMING of his actions. He could have just told Regin, "I'm sorry your highness, but rushing this is too risky right now. Please wait for me to finish dealing with the forces trying to KILL US before we deal with the issue of your succession." The King and the Chamberlain are both perfectly aware of Regin's identity, so it wasn't even a big deal. In fact, as later events show us, it was completely unnecessary (as evidenced by their failure to get any proof of Regin's heritage).

[Flying Dagger]

Originally Posted by Rasen

As I said earlier, none of that explains the TIMING of his actions. He could have just told Regin, "I'm sorry your highness, but rushing this is too risky right now. Please wait for me to finish dealing with the forces trying to KILL US before we deal with the issue of your succession."

The timing is that his army is in position to take on the task (of going into the sanctuary), and it was the right thing to do - with a chance of maybe even forcing your opponent to surrender thus resolving the strife without going into battle.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

The timing is that his army is in position to take on the task (of going into the sanctuary), and it was the right thing to do - with a chance of maybe even forcing your opponent to surrender thus resolving the strife without going into battle.

What kind of timing is that? "Hey, let's just ignore the army trying to kill me, to do the 'right thing'. " There was nothing time-critical about this "right-thing," and it was an unnecessary distraction.

Here's an analogy: you and your family are being mugged. You are managing to keep the mugger at bay, or you may even be forcing him back. Suddenly your kid starts complaining about being hungry. So you turn to the mugger and go: "hey hold on a sec, Imma get my kid a doughnut."

Also, there's no strategic reason for it either, because Thernadier would NEVER have surrendered. He was the one trying to assassinate Regin in the first place. So what if they got proof? He'd just STILL try to kill them.

[Flying Dagger]

Originally Posted by Rasen

What kind of timing is that? "Hey, let's just ignore the army trying to kill me, to do the 'right thing'. " There was nothing time-critical about this "right-thing," and it was an unnecessary distraction.

Here's an analogy: you and your family are being mugged. You are managing to keep the mugger at bay, or you may even be forcing him back. Suddenly your kid starts complaining about being hungry. So you turn to the mugger and go: "hey hold on a sec, Imma get my kid a doughnut."

Also, there's no strategic reason for it either, because Thernadier would NEVER have surrendered. He was the one trying to assassinate Regin in the first place. So what if they got proof? He'd just STILL try to kill them.

Did you read the novels? v5ch3. Near the end. I will borrow from the English preview on BT:

「My goal is the safety of Alsace and to find proof of Her Higness being a member of the Royal Family. It is not a necessity to fight Duke Thenardier.」

Lim:「True. His Dragons, his last resort, are gone. Duke Thenardier cannot move immediately, and if you can prove Regin is royalty, she can charge him with attempting to kill Her Highness.」

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

Did you read the novels? v5ch3. Near the end. I will borrow from the English preview on BT:

To which I say Tigre was making up a poor justification, and Lim was playing along (As Tigre's teacher, "it's not the best decisions, but you're in a relatively solid position, so you can afford to try"). Thernadier is a man who they all know is willing to assassinate Regin.

Along those lines, Thernaider and Ganelon were so powerful they basically ran the country and the King couldn't do anything about it.

In short, getting the proof means jack diddly to Thernadier. "What? You found proof of Regin being royalty and that I tried to kill her? Guess I'll just surrender now and let you proceed unhindered to the capital. Hur hur hur." If anything, it would make him MORE desperate and determined to kill them.

And there is no way that Tigre would not have had to kill Thernadier. Thernadier ordered the pillaging of Tigre's home, and Tigre killed his son. The only way either one of them will be satisfied is when the other is cold and dead.

[Leonardunitylim]

Originally Posted by Rasen

What kind of timing is that? "Hey, let's just ignore the army trying to kill me, to do the 'right thing'. " There was nothing time-critical about this "right-thing," and it was an unnecessary distraction.

Here's an analogy: you and your family are being mugged. You are managing to keep the mugger at bay, or you may even be forcing him back. Suddenly your kid starts complaining about being hungry. So you turn to the mugger and go: "hey hold on a sec, Imma get my kid a doughnut."

Also, there's no strategic reason for it either, because Thernadier would NEVER have surrendered. He was the one trying to assassinate Regin in the first place. So what if they got proof? He'd just STILL try to kill them.

Nah . Decisions are weighed. If they follow and believe that regin is of royalty, they could have pushed all the blame to thenardier , saying that he is trying to kill someone related to brune and that they are the ones protecting the royal blood.that way, Tigre would have a chance to gain more allies under his cause. Now on the other hand, they can't leave regin alone again , because if they did and regin was of royal blood and SHE WAS KILLED, that would be the end of the future for Tigre since he will be blamed for everything. And besides, Tigre can't afford a bloody and lengthy battle due to the number of troops and such while that bastard of a dictator can gather the same amount but few times easier and faster. It was more like a race to see who would get the upper hand. Well your analogy of the "doing the right thing" wasn't wrong either, it was quite crucial time-wise since the king is already on death's doorstep, they would want to get back to the capital ASAP together with regin's royalty proven

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

Nah . Decisions are weighed. If they follow and believe that regin is of royalty, they could have pushed all the blame to thenardier , saying that he is trying to kill someone related to brune and that they are the ones protecting the royal blood.that way, Tigre would have a chance to gain more allies under his cause. Now on the other hand, they can't leave regin alone again , because if they did and regin was of royal blood and SHE WAS KILLED, that would be the end of the future for Tigre since he will be blamed for everything. And besides, Tigre can't afford a bloody and lengthy battle due to the number of troops and such while that bastard of a dictator can gather the same amount but few times easier and faster. It was more like a race to see who would get the upper hand. Well your analogy of the "doing the right thing" wasn't wrong either, it was quite crucial time-wise since the king is already on death's doorstep, they would want to get back to the capital ASAP together with regin's royalty proven

I see what you're saying, but to "push the blame" on Thernadier, they have to report it to someone first. Which means if they found proof, Thernadier would just try to kill them ANYWAY, before they "push the blame." And then they would have to WAIT for the inevitable debate about the authenticity of their proof, then WAIT for reinforcements, while in the meantime, Thernadier could go get reinforcements of his own.

Also, consider Tigre's position at that point. He had TWO Vanadis on his side and the Black Bow. Regin has NEVER been safer. Thernadier had regular soldiers and no more dragons. Tigre didn't need more soldiers or allied forces, he was already in a perfectly sound position to utterly crush Thernadier and his forces, AND THEN do the right thing.

In fact, that's exactly what he does later after the failed attempt to find proof. He crushes them with the forces he has on hand.

All the attempt to find proof for Regin did was endanger Regin (by separating her from a loyal ARMY), separate their Vanadis forces, put Tigre in a close-quarters fight(which is bad for any archer not named Shirou), and got Massass killed. Which could have all been avoided if they just killed Thernadier FIRST.

[Leonardunitylim]

Originally Posted by Rasen

I see what you're saying, but to "push the blame" on Thernadier, they have to report it to someone first. Which means if they found proof, Thernadier would just try to kill them ANYWAY, before they "push the blame." And then they would have to WAIT for reinforcements, while in the meantime, Thernadier could go get reinforcements of his own.

Also, consider Tigre's position at that point. He had TWO Vanadis on his side and the Black Bow. Regin has NEVER been safer. Thernadier had regular soldiers and no more dragons. Tigre didn't need more soldiers or allied forces, he was already in a perfectly sound position to utterly crush Thernadier and his forces, AND THEN do the right thing.

In fact, that's exactly what he does later after the failed attempt to find proof. He crushes them with the forces he has on hand.

All the attempt to find proof for Regin did was endanger Regin (by separating her from a loyal ARMY), separate their Vanadis forces, put Tigre in a close-quarters fight(which is bad for any archer not named Shirou), and got Massass killed. Which could have all been avoided if they just killed Thernadier FIRST.

So after all that proposing on killing thenardier first then comes settling the royal dispute, how do you propose on doing it? using his black bow and nuke the shit out of everything? Or rely on Ellen and Mira? Either way , Tigre have to gain more allies and in the end, they might have to resort in blurting out that they are protecting someone of royal blood to gain more allies. That would put regin in danger anways

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

So after all that proposing on killing thenardier first then comes settling the royal dispute, how do you propose on doing it? using his black bow and nuke the shit out of everything? Or rely on Ellen and Mira? Either way , Tigre have to gain more allies and in the end, they might have to resort in blurting out that they are protecting someone of royal blood to gain more allies. That would put regin in danger anways

Simple. Kill Thernadier FIRST.

Now that the threat to your life is gone, THEN search for proof in safety and in a relaxed manner. Or talk to the Chamberlain. Or the King.

[Flying Dagger]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Simple. Kill Thernadier FIRST.

Now that the threat to your life is gone, THEN search for proof. Or talk to the Chamberlain. Or the King.

Then you cause a lot of unnecessary death and weaken the overall strength of the country.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

Then you cause a lot of unnecessary death and weaken the overall strength of the country.

And what do you think trying to prosecute Thernadier would do? A calm and peaceful resolution ("Well shucks, you win this round!"), or Thernadier will simply revolt and start a civil war?

[Flying Dagger]

Destroy the moral of his troops to greatly weaken his numbers while uniting the rest of the country under one banner, gaining access to parties of knights. Also may severe his diplomatic ties with other factions. Also various diplomatic rights.

The whole concept is for Tigre to do what is "best for the country". Personal interest (let it be revenge, or "helping someone he knows") would take away from the main reason why he made such a decision.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

Destroy the moral of his troops to greatly weaken his numbers while uniting the rest of the country under one banner, gaining access to parties of knights.

First, his soldiers know they work for a man who will feed them to dragons. I doubt they're surprised by anything he does. "He tried to kill the prince? Figures."

Second, uniting the country would take too long. Months of waiting and debate about Tigre's claims, the legitimacy of the proof, whether they would accept a princess, etc. etc..... In the meantime, Duke Therandier will still be trying to kill Tigre. Causing the loss of lives. Many lives.

You keep talking as though Brune's government and royalty will act on goodwill and justice. Politicians have proven otherwise, and this is a world without teleconferencing. Politicians move on self-interest, and bureaucracy is SLOOOOOOOOW.

Finally, while they're waiting for the "country to unite," he might just kill the king (WE know the king is dying, but Tigre doesn't. HOWEVER, it's a logical guess based on that Tigre knows Duke Thernadier is a man who tried to kill Regin, and therefore wants the throne.) . Guess who that leaves to fill the power void?

By WAITING, all that does is give Thernadier time to recover and keep fighting. Anything could happen. Choosing "unpredictable future" is a tactically terrible choice, especially when you are in a position to END IT NOW.

Also may severe his diplomatic ties with other factions. Also various diplomatic rights.

Not likely. His relations with other "factions" is that he's more powerful than them, and they're scared of him. That still holds true.

The whole concept is for Tigre to do what is "best for the country". Personal interest (let it be revenge, or "helping someone he knows") would take away from the main reason why he made such a decision.

Tigre doesn't give a flying fig about "best for the country." His actions are in the name of "best for Alsace." For the sake of Alsace, he handed Alsace over to Zchted to kill Brune soldiers. There is nothing "good for the country" in that, especially as it gives Zchted a foothold into Brune territory. If any of his actions help Brune, it will only be because the actions first help Alsace.

[Leonardunitylim]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Simple. Kill Thernadier FIRST.

Now that the threat to your life is gone, THEN search for proof in safety and in a relaxed manner. Or talk to the Chamberlain. Or the King.

I already said it .do you even read? I Said HOW do you go about killing him? Duel him 1 on 1 ? Nuke him with the bow? Rely on Ellen or Mira? You said it yourself that soldiers are not gonna rally under him if they know Tigre is going to feed them to dragons. And brune soldiers only came together because of tigre's virtue. Once he strays past from that, it is downhill all the way. Limlisha once asked him "what do you intend to do with thenardier after you've defended Alsace, deprive him of all his fortune or total annihilation ?"
Tigre reply was steadfast : peace for Alsace. So you really think that killing him (unless to be forced into a corner like a rat) is a reason to gather the soldiers? Hell no
And if you say you have all the time in the world to stroll and search for proofs? No way in heavens is that gong to happen. the king is dying. Let him meet regin and die peacefully , or let him suffer while not knowing the whereabouts of his daughter? Your call , your choice

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

I already said it .do you even read? I Said HOW do you go about killing him? Duel him 1 on 1 ? Nuke him with the bow? Rely on Ellen or Mira? You said it yourself that soldiers are not gonna rally under him if they know Tigre is going to feed them to dragons. And brune soldiers only came together because of tigre's virtue. Once he strays past from that, it is downhill all the way. Limlisha once asked him "what do you intend to do with thenardier after you've defended Alsace, deprive him of all his fortune or total annihilation ?"
Tigre reply was steadfast : peace for Alsace. So you really think that killing him (unless to be forced into a corner like a rat) is a reason to gather the soldiers? Hell no

It's strange that now you're arguing against the book.

1) How did Tigre kill Thernadier in the book? He fought his soldiers than fought a duel. And Tigre has two Vanadis on his side, who can almost take care of entire armies by themselves. This is not a difficult task for them.

2) Thernadier's soldiers WILL rally under him, BECAUSE they know he will feed them to dragons. If they flee, he will kill them or their families. If they rallied under him in the book, there is no reason to think they would do otherwise.

3) And as for the Brune soldiers currently fighting for Tigre, they ALREADY gathered KNOWING they're fighting Thernadier. Nothing has changed.

And if you say you have all the time in the world to stroll and search for proofs? No way in heavens is that gong to happen. the king is dying. Let him meet regin and die peacefully , or let him suffer while not knowing the whereabouts of his daughter? Your call , your choice

My argument is made from the perspective of Tigre. Tigre does NOT know the king is dying. Therefore, it is NOT time critical in Tigre's eyes.

FURTHERMORE, Tigre does not have to search for ANYTHING to let the King know about the whereabouts of his daughter. He can just send a letter "Hey, I just found out the prince was actually a girl. Just letting you know she's ok."

[Leonardunitylim]

Originally Posted by Rasen

It's strange that now you're arguing against the book.

1) How did Tigre kill Thernadier in the book? He fought his soldiers than fought a duel. And Tigre has two Vanadis on his side, who can almost take care of entire armies by themselves. This is not a difficult task for them.

2) Thernadier's soldiers WILL rally under him, BECAUSE they know he will feed them to dragons. If they flee, he will kill them or their families. If they rallied under him in the book, there is no reason to think they would do otherwise.

3) And as for the Brune soldiers currently fighting for Tigre, they ALREADY gathered KNOWING they're fighting Thernadier. Nothing has changed.



My argument is made from the perspective of Tigre. Tigre does NOT know the king is dying. Therefore, it is NOT time critical in Tigre's eyes.

FURTHERMORE, Tigre does not have to search for ANYTHING to let the King know about the whereabouts of his daughter. He can just send a letter "Hey, I just found out the prince was actually a girl. Just letting you know she's ok."

I am arguing based the restart point in this. I assume that our standpoints are from "why Tigre find proof for regin" that is before the WAR and DUEL and based on what reason can it allow tigre to stand toe to toe with thenardier? So I am asking you how do you decide to go about killing thenardier if you don't want to find the proof first? Then next, massas stated that "king is not looking too good" when they met up. You say that Tigre does not know if the king is dying? Tigre clearly knows that the king is extremely ill and may not have long to live. Point proven again. Next, you say send a letter to the king. Those who support thenardier may intercept the letter and subjugate him. Now again, who would listen to the words of a rebel who kills his own people? The letter may very well be ignored and Tigre will be fighting all over again, this time with god knows whom. And you do know that the reason why the various knighthoods have enough time and managed to gather under tigre's flag is because of MASSAS. And how did Tigre know that the king is dying? It is also because of him

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

I am arguing based the restart point in this. I assume that our standpoints are from "why Tigre find proof for regin" that is before the WAR and DUEL and based on what reason can it allow tigre to stand toe to toe with thenardier? So I am asking you how do you decide to go about killing thenardier if you don't want to find the proof first?

Well, the war was ALREADY going on, which is part of the reason that I'm arguing that it was stupid to take a break from it. See my earlier analogy about your family being mugged.

As for the duel, they hate each other. That's all they needed in the book, that's all they need now. To restate what happened in the book, AFTER the failed proof-finding attempt:

1) the two armies fought,

2) The Silver Flow army beat Thernadier's army to the point that Tigre could force Thernadier to a duel.

The Silver Flow army's situation was the SAME before and after the failed attempt, so what they did AFTER the attempt is exactly what they could and should have done BEFORE.

Then next, massas stated that "king is not looking too good" when they met up. You say that Tigre does not know if the king is dying? Tigre clearly knows that the king is extremely ill and may not have long to live.

I couldn't find that. IIRC, Massas kept it a secret from everybody. It wasn't until later, when the Chamberlin Bodwin showed up to meet with Tigre that the King's health was revealed. (And this was after the failed attempt to find proof) As for not "looking too good," that was common knowledge. In the book, everyone already knew the king had basically hidden himself away after Regin's supposed death in the first book.

Point proven again. Next, you say send a letter to the king. Those who support thenardier may intercept the letter and subjugate him. Now again, who would listen to the words of a rebel who kills his own people? The letter may very well be ignored and Tigre will be fighting all over again, this time with god knows whom.

And yet you think those same people would let Tigre bring proof about Regin and Thernadier peacefully?

And you do know that the reason why the various knighthoods have enough time and managed to gather under tigre's flag is because of MASSAS.

What does that have to do with anything?

Edit: Found the lines in the book.

“I understand what you mean, Ellen, Mira... But if word reached His Majesty, wouldn't it work out? Though I hear he is currently ill.”
Massas began to choke hearing Tigre's words. Looking at the unexpected noise from the old Earl, it was clear he was sweating.
“Lord Massas?”
Tigre called out to Massas in worry. While holding his gray beard, Massas managed to squeeze out his voice, explaining the King had become extremely mentally unstable hearing of the Prince's death.
“That... Is it true?”
Regin turned pale and staggered from the impact. Tigre ran to support her and she managed to not fall by clinging to his arm.
“Unfortunately...”
Massas looked down and refused to say any more.

They already know the king is "ill" not that his health was in danger. Massas only revealed that the "illness" was of the mental variety. The fact that the king was dying was revealed by Bodwin MUCH later.

[Rasen]

Basically it boils down to this:

BEFORE the fighting between Thernadier and Tigre started, finding proof of Regin's heritage was at least a semi-sensible option. Though doing that would most likely provoke Thernadier into attacking, he was likely going to attack anyway. So no big loss. And if they were VERY, VERY lucky, maybe Thernadier would do the non-selfish thing.

AFTER the fighting began, trying to find proof of heritage should have been put on hold until Thernadier was cold and dead in the ground. Especially since the the five dragons were dead, the Vanadis were fine, and troop morale was at a high from the victory.

And that's the crux of it: in the MIDDLE of a war, they went and did something unnecessarily stupid and risky. And all the political and strategic reasons that apply for helping Regin at that point in time, would STILL apply after they kill Thernadier. Thus, the only reason for doing something so stupid (time-wise) can be something illogical, like friendship.

[borisdrakoni]

I should think Tigre's willingness to protect Regin from the forces of Thenardier and Ganelon would serve as proof enough of his good will, however that does not automatically equate to friendship between them. Setting aside Regin's own developing feelings, Tigre said himself that he and the "prince" were never close, and did not particularly seem to care much on hearing the news of his death way back in volume 1. This did not change overmuch even after Regin revealed her identity.

Going out of their way to prove her identity served a coldly logical and highly practical purpose. Firstly, it would have provided legitimacy to Tigre's cause. At the time he had been branded a traitor and enemy of the state, but if he is protecting and acting for the sake of a direct member of the royalty then the equation changes entirely. There was a possibility of receiving allies and aid that just didn't exist while he was acting independently. Bear in mind, the vast majority of the knights' forces never took part in the civil war since they only answer to the royal family, and that might have been enough of a game changer to end things without the need for confronting Thenardier in a duel. Unlike Thenardier, Tigre is the type to seek solutions that end with as little bloodshed as possible.

Also, there was the very real danger of Thenardier and Ganelon allying themselves again once they found out Regin was alive. Regardless of having two Vanadis on his side, Tigre's army at the time would have undoubtedly been crushed if faced with a unified front of the country's two most powerful nobles. Thus proving her identity as soon as possible to get more help is perfectly reasonable.

One final point that I think is being overlooked is the death of Steid during the failed attempt at proving Regin's heritage. He was an extremely capable commander for Thenardier, to the point where Thenardier admits that even without the dragons, had he still been alive then he could have likely won. In the end it comes down to a literary device. Tigre's father figure Batran needed to die to send Tigre further along the path of the hero cycle. Steid needed to die so that Thenardier could be forced into a corner and made to accept a one on one duel. The best way to do that was to have the expedition happen exactly when and how it did.