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KiraYamatoFan · 2014-01-17, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

You seriously don't know much about Ho Chi Minh and Vietnam in general....

Ngo's assassins...you think they do a better job than Ho?

If I had to choose between Ngo's assassins and Ho's ideology, which led to total disenchantment and mass exodus of Vietnamese citizens who eventually found their stride in the countries that adopted them, I'd choose the former no matter how much shit was said about him. It's like asking a South Korean who they'd prefer between Park Chung-hee and Kim Il-Sung when both men were alive because one laid the foundations for some future while the other did fuck all to establish anything worthy of a future despite fighting the war for independence.

Didn't I say to leave this bit to rest? Jeez!

Sumeragi · 2014-01-17, 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

How does a Prime Minister go somewhere as an individual and not a Prime Minister?

By visiting as the representative of Japan, meaning official endorsement of Yasukuni by the government of Japan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

If I had to choose between Ngo's assassins and Ho's ideology, which led to total disenchantment and mass exodus of Vietnamese citizens who eventually found their stride in the countries that adopted them, I'd choose the former no matter how much shit was said about him. It's like asking a South Korean who they'd prefer between Park Chung-hee and Kim Il-Sung when both men were alive because one laid the foundations for some future while the other did fuck all to establish anything worthy of a future despite fighting the war for independence.

Didn't I say to leave this bit to rest? Jeez!

Koreans would laugh at you for that comment. In fact, they'll consider you a naive lunatic, since even the veterans admit that Ho was the lesser of all evils for the Vietnamese people. No offense meant against you, but when people who've fought in the war realize which person was better, you need to consider whether your own views are just wrong.

KiraYamatoFan · 2014-01-17, 12:32

The countries in Asia that stood out on top used an ideological model that rejected communism. Even China had to reject large parts of their communist past to be where they are right now. Meanwhile, countries that kept that model ended up falling behind. On that, I rest my case.

Sumeragi · 2014-01-17, 13:52

There was never some single "communism". It was different for each country. In addition, countries in Asia that stood out on top used an ideological model used the same basis of statism, which in the end is fundamentally no different from "communism".

LeoXiao · 2014-01-17, 14:28

Asian countries that ended out on top didn't go to the same extent in micromanaging their political culture that the self-proclaimed communist ones did. The economy being controlled/heavily influenced by the state is a different issue entirely and has little to do with ideology.

maplehurry · 2014-01-17, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

How does a Prime Minister go somewhere as an individual and not a Prime Minister?

By telling the press that it's a visit through his private time. Not as part of his job.

When Biden went to China(and Korea and Japan) last month, it was part of his job, not private.

When Cheney went recreational hunting, it's his private time, not part of his job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

The countries in Asia that stood out on top used an ideological model that rejected communism. Even China had to reject large parts of their communist past to be where they are right now. Meanwhile, countries that kept that model ended up falling behind. On that, I rest my case.

Ho died in 1969. USSR won the 1st round of space race in 1961. It's really one of those hindsight he did not have at the time.

Being a "pacifist", I have more of a problem with him deciding to go to war when he knew the casualties's going to be massive with US on the side of the South.

Fireminer · 2014-01-17, 18:31

So now, Mr.Kira, could you please point you what is truly wrong with Communism?

We've tried the Capitalism Democratic System, and it failed to unite the people against external threat. Don't give me that "Ngo laid a foundation to the Future" shit. Do you know that the economical advantage that the people under him could get, they only spread in the large city? Even so, it was still relied heavily on American money, not by real production: Drug, Prositute, Wine, Mercernary,... Inflatation was just more than high. Above all, do you want to be a part of the mass murder that had became an ordinary sight with Ngo's "Killing All than Killing Wrong" menthod? And I though the American is the only short-sighted on the continent...

And beside, do you know that Uncle Ho actually had shown interested in the way of economic development in the West. Just ask some ex-POW from Hoa Lo Prison - he made friend with them.

Yes, I agree that there is no single Communist idealogist - Even Lenin agree that when saying: "Communism is a moving object". So please just don't use USSR or China to compare to us.

NoemiChan · 2014-01-17, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

So now, Mr.Kira, could you please point you what is truly wrong with Communism?

I say Marxist's Communism that is good yet too wrong as well. It's too radical. It can never exist.

IMHO, communism are no different to dictatorship. They set the rules. Their rules exempts no one except themselves.

Why I hate communism? Coz, they're one of my country's problem. They extort "revolutionary" tribute by force, burn buses, steal live stocks and kill every government personnel they see.

Fireminer · 2014-01-17, 19:40

Ah, I see, so the Philipino decided to follow the Khmer Rouge. Then don't worry, they will end like Khmer Rouge.

And beside, like I said above, Marx will surely be surprise on how has Communism developed. Also, Marx isn't the first one to build Communism, as well as the only source of it. There are far more radical group before him.

And who rule the Democrat and Republic beside themself?

NoemiChan · 2014-01-17, 20:00

Quote:

Ah, I see, so the Filipino Communist rebels decided to follow the Khmer Rouge. Then don't worry, they will end like Khmer Rouge.

Fixed that for you. I hope so. I don't show sympathy to them.

Quote:

And beside, like I said above, Marx will surely be surprise on how has Communism developed. Also, Marx isn't the first one to build Communism, as well as the only source of it. There are far more radical group before him.

True, but most communist based it on Marx's Communism.

Anyway, a little out of topic regarding my view of communism.

TL;DR…

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

That said. I have to stop here. We are tooooo out of topic.

Fireminer · 2014-01-17, 20:18

Well, it depend on your view of "laborer". Everyone have got a place, right? Farmers plant, Workers manufacture, Soldiers protect, and Government oversees everything. So, everyone are labouring.

SaintessHeart · 2014-01-17, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Well, it depend on your view of "laborer". Everyone have got a place, right? Farmers plant, Workers manufacture, Soldiers protect, and Government oversees everything. So, everyone are labouring.

That is a terrible attempt at correlating things based on terminology. For a start, your terminology is wrong : a labourer is someone who does manual work, its synonym is unskilled labour.

Labour is a measure of work done and affects output through human capital. Each worker has a different Marginal Revenue Product and it is wrong to use "labourer" as an umbrella term for anyone who works.

That is hardly a malaprop. That is catachresis.

Fireminer · 2014-01-17, 22:28

Alright, thanks for correct me. So, guess that I shouldn't use the word "laboured" as a replacement for "working class". Then, let's change it back! The principal here is the same as everywhere: Except special cases, you get the result arcording to what have you been working for - meaning, you don't work, you don't eat.

I wouldn't say that Marxist's idea of "War between Classes" is truly correct, but please see some example. In America, the number of middle-class men with stable income and self-owned house is decreasing compare to the 50s-60s - When American was still in war with us. Deregulation has led to some spectacular fraud in the Banking industry. Medical price rised, and so does inflatation. In a recent survey by CNN, the Latin and Black ethnics children have fewer chance to surpassed their parents - thefore, denied the core idea of American Dream: Make it whenever you are.

Ok, so what I'm trying to say that in a terrible Capitalism regime, it's no better than wrong-doing Communist government, and vice versa, a proper-manered Social Democratic country could certainly go equal with a Bicameral system. So why hate and scare of Communism? After all, you don't believe it. I never understand why a lot of people fear that their country would go with Socialism. Their are many level of left-wing, you know?

But back to the point! Even if Mao hadn't sucessed in establishing China like today, Another China would be still the same. Just see Taiwan in the dispute. The only different that Chiang would still be ally to the West, and America would has to settle everything between its comrades.

Cosmic Eagle · 2014-01-17, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplehurry

By telling the press that it's a visit through his private time. Not as part of his job.

When Biden went to China(and Korea and Japan) last month, it was part of his job, not private.

When Cheney went recreational hunting, it's his private time, not part of his job.

They did not have a bunch of people waiting for an opportunity to pick a bone with them. Even if a Japan PM openly declares he's going in his private capacity to pray for family and the like, you think the Korean/Chinese press won't say anything?

Quote:

Why I hate communism? Coz, they're one of my country's problem. They extort "revolutionary" tribute by force, burn buses, steal live stocks and kill every government personnel they see.

Technically that's not a problem confined to ideology so much as the people are just effed up...You see them everywhere actually

Sumeragi · 2014-01-18, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Even if a Japan PM openly declares he's going in his private capacity to pray for family and the like, you think the Korean/Chinese press won't say anything?

They're willing to give a benefit of doubt.

SaintessHeart · 2014-01-18, 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

They're willing to give a benefit of doubt.

Not when their news agencies have plummeting readership that is hurting their bottom line.

Sumeragi · 2014-01-18, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Not when their news agencies have plummeting readership that is hurting their bottom line.

Korean news agencies don't have plummeting readership

Cosmic Eagle · 2014-01-18, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Korean news agencies don't have plummeting readership

Global Times OTOH.....

They should just stick to Kim Jong Un wins Sexiest Man Alive news

Roger Rambo · 2014-01-19, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

China condemns Japan leader on visit to Ethiopia

And China is possessive of Africa.

Looks to me China doesn't like the idea of Japan making any inroads to Africa economically as it will lessen their influence and make them look worse.

There are a number of Chinese operated mines in Africa that shows bad labor practices.

Inaccurate titles aside...

Quote:

On Sunday Chinese activists brawled with Japanese embassy security in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, as they took pictures of the embassy and protested Abe's visit.

Quote:

Eyewitnesses in Addis Ababa told The Associated Press that Chinese construction workers erected a sign or banner that said "Sankaku Island belongs to us," a reference to disputed islands both nations claim. The witnesses, who insisted on anonymity out of fear of reprisals, said the sign was taken down before Abe's convoy passed by.

...strong feelings aside, do Chinese citizens REALLY think that foreign countries are appropriate place to let loose their anger about regional politics back in Asia? Engaging in disorderly politically motivated brawls while in somebody elses country seems uncouth and thuggish to me. Is this the kind of reputation that Chinese citizens abroad are trying to make for their country? By causing trouble for other people who have nothing to do with China's grievances?

It'd be pretty damn appalling if that witness who opted to stay anonymous for safety reasons was a native Ethiopian. Are the Chinese activists proud that they're terrorizing the citizens of the country they're in?

Sumeragi · 2014-01-19, 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

It'd be pretty damn appalling if that witness who opted to stay anonymous for safety reasons was a native Ethiopian. Are the Chinese activists proud that they're terrorizing the citizens of the country they're in?

Reminds me of all the violence that PRC citizens did to Koreans back in 2008 in the Korean part of the torch relay.

2014-01-17, 13:52	Link #1004
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	There was never some single "communism". It was different for each country. In addition, countries in Asia that stood out on top used an ideological model used the same basis of statism, which in the end is fundamentally no different from "communism". Last edited by relentlessflame; 2014-01-17 at 15:39. Reason: edit to remove overly-confrontational paragraph

2014-01-17, 14:28	Link #1005
LeoXiao 思想工作 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Vereinigte Staaten Age: 31	Asian countries that ended out on top didn't go to the same extent in micromanaging their political culture that the self-proclaimed communist ones did. The economy being controlled/heavily influenced by the state is a different issue entirely and has little to do with ideology. Last edited by relentlessflame; 2014-01-17 at 15:39. Reason: removed off-topic

2014-01-17, 12:32	Link #1003
KiraYamatoFan Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Age: 40	The countries in Asia that stood out on top used an ideological model that rejected communism. Even China had to reject large parts of their communist past to be where they are right now. Meanwhile, countries that kept that model ended up falling behind. On that, I rest my case.

2014-01-17, 18:31	Link #1007
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	So now, Mr.Kira, could you please point you what is truly wrong with Communism? We've tried the Capitalism Democratic System, and it failed to unite the people against external threat. Don't give me that "Ngo laid a foundation to the Future" shit. Do you know that the economical advantage that the people under him could get, they only spread in the large city? Even so, it was still relied heavily on American money, not by real production: Drug, Prositute, Wine, Mercernary,... Inflatation was just more than high. Above all, do you want to be a part of the mass murder that had became an ordinary sight with Ngo's "Killing All than Killing Wrong" menthod? And I though the American is the only short-sighted on the continent... And beside, do you know that Uncle Ho actually had shown interested in the way of economic development in the West. Just ask some ex-POW from Hoa Lo Prison - he made friend with them. Yes, I agree that there is no single Communist idealogist - Even Lenin agree that when saying: "Communism is a moving object". So please just don't use USSR or China to compare to us.

2014-01-17, 19:40	Link #1009
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Ah, I see, so the Philipino decided to follow the Khmer Rouge. Then don't worry, they will end like Khmer Rouge. And beside, like I said above, Marx will surely be surprise on how has Communism developed. Also, Marx isn't the first one to build Communism, as well as the only source of it. There are far more radical group before him. And who rule the Democrat and Republic beside themself?

2014-01-17, 20:18	Link #1011
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Well, it depend on your view of "laborer". Everyone have got a place, right? Farmers plant, Workers manufacture, Soldiers protect, and Government oversees everything. So, everyone are labouring.

2014-01-17, 22:28	Link #1013
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Alright, thanks for correct me. So, guess that I shouldn't use the word "laboured" as a replacement for "working class". Then, let's change it back! The principal here is the same as everywhere: Except special cases, you get the result arcording to what have you been working for - meaning, you don't work, you don't eat. I wouldn't say that Marxist's idea of "War between Classes" is truly correct, but please see some example. In America, the number of middle-class men with stable income and self-owned house is decreasing compare to the 50s-60s - When American was still in war with us. Deregulation has led to some spectacular fraud in the Banking industry. Medical price rised, and so does inflatation. In a recent survey by CNN, the Latin and Black ethnics children have fewer chance to surpassed their parents - thefore, denied the core idea of American Dream: Make it whenever you are. Ok, so what I'm trying to say that in a terrible Capitalism regime, it's no better than wrong-doing Communist government, and vice versa, a proper-manered Social Democratic country could certainly go equal with a Bicameral system. So why hate and scare of Communism? After all, you don't believe it. I never understand why a lot of people fear that their country would go with Socialism. Their are many level of left-wing, you know? But back to the point! Even if Mao hadn't sucessed in establishing China like today, Another China would be still the same. Just see Taiwan in the dispute. The only different that Chiang would still be ally to the West, and America would has to settle everything between its comrades.