Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA [manga]

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Being the "key" to something is too vague when there are multiple keys required for completion. Characters are still essential even as a Lesser Grail because they are rare vessels that can contain the mana needed to open the gate to the Great Grail. Miyu is clearly invaluable to the Ainsworths, and Ilya was the trump card for the Einzberns. I think you're understating the importance of the Lesser Grail by quite a bit.

I reread Zwei and it is said explicitly Caren was monitoring the location of the incomplete Holy Grail.

As in the physical grail cup before the the Einzbern homunculus grail vessels were developed.

Note in the Third Grail War Zouken picked up the pieces and made what is left of it into a worms. Which he used on Sakura to be a grail vessel.

Key to the ritual, Heaven's Feel, instead of Justeaze is Illya. In the Kalied-verse she is the core.

Ilya is already connected to the Greater Grail in a sense, being a homunculus created in the image of the person who makes up the Greater Grail's core.

Except in this universe Illya is a real 10 year old girl not a humonculus. What the Einzbern's did was closer to FSN Zouken's human grail, Sakura.

It's also what Ilya used on Shirou in the HF route, and she is only a Lesser Grail there.
Miyu also uses Install a few times in 2wei, so being a Greater Grail is not a requirement for the usage of Third Magic.

Different universe different rules.

The Kalied-verse Grail War is very close to the FSN original grail war only in the modern times.

The Einzberns, Tousaka, Maikiri did not cooperate 250 years ago but the implication by Kuro was that Rin's father was involved in the Kalied Grail War by being Fuyuki's administrator. Since a Sakura exist also then likely the Matou's cooperated also.

Difference are Illya is core of the ritual. The Holy Grail will manifest in the cave underground.

But Kiritsugu and Irisviel rebelled against losing their child. They put a spanner in the works by sealing Illya's original personality, Kuro. And probably killed every other Einzbern capable of restarting the Grail War.

The cards themselves are incomplete Third Magic. The Dress of Heaven in Miyu's universe is wearing the souls of the Heroic Spirits, Install.

This is different from FSN Dress of Heaven where the Heroic Spirits become rings on Illya's white dress.

FSN Illya and Kalied illya were born for the Grail War. But Miyu well the Grail War was made around her. The Ainsworth Grail War is not about completing the grail but capturing the grail herself.

Gil said Miyu is very close enough to the original article.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

I reread Zwei and it is said explicitly Caren was monitoring the location of the incomplete Holy Grail.

As in the physical grail cup before the the Einzbern homunculus grail vessels were developed.

Note in the Third Grail War Zouken picked up the pieces and made what is left of it into a worms. Which he used on Sakura to be a grail vessel.

Key to the ritual, Heaven's Feel, instead of Justeaze is Illya. In the Kalied-verse she is the core.

That does not prove your claim. In F/SN the Grail is also considered incomplete despite Justeaze forming the core of the Greater Grail. It still needs seven Servants' worth of mana collected by the Lesser Grail in order to open access to the Root/Origin (which was the original intention behind the ritual).

The ritual had always been set to take place under Mount Enzo. Caren does not have to monitor a physical item. It's more than likely that she was just monitoring the magic circles already placed there for the ritual. Anyone can find and take advantage of ritual markings. Caster did in F/SN, and Gil just did in 2wei.

Additionally, the fact that Ilya, Miyu, Rin, Kuro, and Luvia did go underground to where the ritual was supposed to take place in 2wei and found no physical grail in sight along with Gil deliberately choosing to absorb a Lesser Grail like Miyu disproves the existence of a physical Grail cup.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Except in this universe Illya is a real 10 year old girl not a humonculus. What the Einzbern's did was closer to FSN Zouken's human grail, Sakura.

Where did you get this? There has been no evidence of Ilya aging. Even when she was recalling her/Kuro's memories of being sealed away, her physical body was not shown in the carriage.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Different universe different rules.

The Kalied-verse Grail War is very close to the FSN original grail war only in the modern times.

The Einzberns, Tousaka, Maikiri did not cooperate 250 years ago but the implication by Kuro was that Rin's father was involved in the Kalied Grail War by being Fuyuki's administrator. Since a Sakura exist also then likely the Matou's cooperated also.

Again, you're missing the fact that there would have been no rules had Justeaze and Zouken not existed. The original "Grail War" and Justeaze becoming the core happened centuries ago, long before Kiritsugu's time.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Difference are Illya is core of the ritual. The Holy Grail will manifest in the cave underground.

But Kiritsugu and Irisviel rebelled against losing their child. They put a spanner in the works by sealing Illya's original personality, Kuro. And probably killed every other Einzbern capable of restarting the Grail War.

The Lesser Grail manifests under Mount Enzo. The Greater Grail is in another dimension. There is no difference here.

The bigger difference is probably that Kiritsugu realized what the Grail actually was before it was too late unlike in Zero.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

The cards themselves are incomplete Third Magic. The Dress of Heaven in Miyu's universe is wearing the souls of the Heroic Spirits, Install.

This is different from FSN Dress of Heaven where the Heroic Spirits become rings on Illya's white dress.

FSN Illya and Kalied illya were born for the Grail War. But Miyu well the Grail War was made around her. The Ainsworth Grail War is not about completing the grail but capturing the grail herself.

Gil said Miyu is very close enough to the original article.

Sure, but I don't see how this explains how Ilya is a Greater Grail.

[Kanon]

New 3rei chapter is out in English. Transition chapter with plenty of fanservice. Gil definitely knows more than he lets on, and Kuro knows it.

[ReddyRedWolf]

TYPE-MOON Fes.10th Anniversary Q & A: Q: You must tell us the details of the battle between the Crimson Moon and
Zelretch at his prime!!

A: You are asking me to divulge such delicious details from my stash of ideas? Mmmm... I have shown some similar scenes in Mahoyo, they would carry a similar vibe. It would be something like, the Crimson Moon dropping a mirror image of the Moon (HERE IT COMES!) versus Zelretch doing something only he was able to do: a virtually limitless Ether Cannon unleashed through a special magic circle ("Magic Square"). If we had five times the budget of Mahoyo, then we may be able to realize such a scene.

Images

Tanaka Drawing

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Going by that description and the drawing how the hell does she know that?

[Kanon]

I personally can't make head or tails of that drawing.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I personally can't make head or tails of that drawing.

Personally I can't tell that's a moon, but I can tell that's a classic genkidama/spirit bomb/giant sphere thing being dropped from the sky and separating the clouds.

Kuro also stated that the crater was rumored to have been caused by a meteorite. Perhaps it's not entirely a rumor and something similar did happen.

[Gaege]

First time I saw that drawing, I thought Tanaka was drawing Nasu for some reason.

[Myssa Rei]

Illya has an IMOOOOUTO! That changes things, though I have to wonder where THIS one came from... Certainly not Miyu's world, as there are no Einzberns here but the Ainsworths instead.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Where did you get this? There has been no evidence of Ilya aging. Even when she was recalling her/Kuro's memories of being sealed away, her physical body was not shown in the carriage.

I'm sure Kiritsugu and Irisviel did something about the aging. She can't live a normal life if she looks 10 at age 18 after all.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Where did you get this? There has been no evidence of Ilya aging. Even when she was recalling her/Kuro's memories of being sealed away, her physical body was not shown in the carriage.

We saw her hands. You don't have a baby's hands (which those were) without being a baby. That was ten years ago, and she looks ten now. All the evidence is that she's aging normally. There is no need to make this needlessly complicated.

ANYway. Translated chapter 9 has some bath fanservice, some Kuro-sitting-in-odd-positions fanserivce, some Gil smiling like a creepy bastard fanservice (if you're into that sort of thing, which I'm not), and some Tanaka drawing on the wall... not-fanservice. I have no clue what she drew. It doesn't look like anything, to me.

Also, there's an unidentified loli wandering around on the last page, saying something about "Illya-oneechan." Anyone's guess is as good as mine, here.

[Myssa Rei]

I'm not sure why Shadow5YA is so hung up with linking Prisma Illya's Illya with main Fateverse's Illya. ^^; Sure, not everything is stated out, but there's enough evidence that this Illya is very much different from the homunculi we all know.

It just seems to me that he's arguing just because there IS ambiguity, is all.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Not to mention we saw toddler Illya eating Shirou's burnt cooking.

Illya was only born 10 years ago not 18 years ago. But the Grail personality, Kuro, is something they've working on far longer.

On another note the Ainsworth has been stealing Mystic Codes and Holy Grails for a long time till they found Miyu.

The Dolls seem to be homunculus as Gil calls them not human. Beatrice can only use Include for a card thus only her arm transforms not her whole body. Angelica though can use Install, thus have access to Gilgamesh's memories.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Not to mention we saw toddler Illya eating Shirou's burnt cooking.

Illya was only born 10 years ago not 18 years ago. But the Grail personality, Kuro, is something they've working on far longer.

Actually, I think Illya was born 18 years ago, but Kiritsugu and Irisviel did something to regress her into a baby (around which time Kuro's personality and knowledge were sealed off.)

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Actually, I think Illya was born 18 years ago, but Kiritsugu and Irisviel did something to regress her into a baby (around which time Kuro's personality and knowledge were sealed off.)

And your evidence for this beyond "there's an Illya who happens to be 18 years old in a completely different work of fiction that has a completely different history with completely different rules" is what, now? Because, I hate to tell you, but that's the most contrived-sounding theory I've yet heard here.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

And your evidence for this beyond "there's an Illya who happens to be 18 years old in a completely different work of fiction that has a completely different history with completely different rules" is what, now?

The Nasuverse is meant to be a mulitiverse, after all, and I've always considered Prisma Illya to be an alternate universe take on events, just like Fate/Apocrypha.

I can't prove this assertion, but it can't be disproven either. It simply makes more sense, for me at least, to think something like this happened rather than Illya being born 8 years later, just because.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

We saw her hands. You don't have a baby's hands (which those were) without being a baby. That was ten years ago, and she looks ten now. All the evidence is that she's aging normally. There is no need to make this needlessly complicated.

That does not imply that Ilya is a regular human.

In chapter 10 of 2wei, Kuro explicitly states, "Since before I was born I was continually tuned for this", and "within a few months after I was born, I was filled with the ability to understand words and all kinds of knowledge". Ilya is far from a normal human.

From what Kuro told us about herself, it's quite clear that she was modified before and after birth to be a Grail homunculus the same way F/SN Ilya was. The difference is that those Einzbern modifications that caused her aging to slow to a crawl in F/SN were probably reversed to some extent when Kuro was sealed.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I'm not sure why Shadow5YA is so hung up with linking Prisma Illya's Illya with main Fateverse's Illya. ^^; Sure, not everything is stated out, but there's enough evidence that this Illya is very much different from the homunculi we all know.

It just seems to me that he's arguing just because there IS ambiguity, is all.

I'm not the one claiming that Prisma Ilya is the core of the Greater Grail in this universe.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The Nasuverse is meant to be a mulitiverse, after all, and I've always considered Prisma Illya to be an alternate universe take on events, just like Fate/Apocrypha.

I can't prove this assertion, but it can't be disproven either. It simply makes more sense, for me at least, to think something like this happened rather than Illya being born 8 years later, just because.

I can't disprove that the author is a soul-devouring alien-demon-zombie-robot with an alligator head who chews on little babies while writing each chapter, and isn't secretly plotting to bring their entire species over through a dimensional portal to turn us all into a light snack through an arcane ritual which will be completed by finishing this manga either.

A certain degree of logic and common sense must be taken into account. When something has been shown fairly plainly in a way that can be well understood to mean only one thing without going to rather excessive leaps of illogic to make it mean something else, the author is not going to bother to show up and spell it out in big flaming letters "HEY MORON, ILLYA IS A TEN-YEAR-OLD HUMAN GIRL WHO IS AGING NORMALLY, THAT'S WHY I SHOWED YOU THOSE FLASHBACKS IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE, STOP BEING AN IDIOT."

There's no point in showing us scenes of her being a baby or a child or any signs of her being normal (which there have been) if she were really a homunculus, because we would have already been assuming she was a homunculus anyway. There would be no reason to have done any of those reveals the way they were done.

Sigh. It annoys me rather excessively when people insist on trying to find complicated explanations for things while ignoring the simple and narratively-cohesive one that's right in front of them.

That does not imply that Ilya is a regular human.

And who here is arguing that she's a regular human? Of course she's different! That is not what I was arguing and it's not the statement of YOURS that I was arguing with. Don't try changing the subject. You said there was no evidence that Illya aged. I presented evidence. Ergo, you were wrong. That was the point of that statement.

[Myssa Rei]

Hence my comment on arguing for the sake of arguing. Also this is coming to the point where there are OBVIOUSLY two camps here -- those who take the Nasuverse as a whole and are utterly convinced that Prisma Illya's Illya has the same origins as mainline Illya, and those who say she isn't.

As someone who isn't knee-deep into Nasu's works, and taking what the manga itself gives (there are certainly enough -- see the flashbacks, and Liz and Sela's comments), I'm with the latter school of thought.

Edit: Also all of this is obviously just a detour from the biggest surprise this chapter: An Einzbern Imouto? Regardless of her origins (remember, in Miyu's world, there are no Einzberns, just Ainsworths), she's going to shake things up, and not for just the lolicons.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I can't disprove that the author is a soul-devouring alien-demon-zombie-robot with an alligator head who chews on little babies while writing each chapter, and isn't secretly plotting to bring their entire species over through a dimensional portal to turn us all into a light snack through an arcane ritual which will be completed by finishing this manga either.

Of course you can. Just fly to Japan to meet him for yourself.

A certain degree of logic and common sense must be taken into account. When something has been shown fairly plainly in a way that can be well understood to mean only one thing without going to rather excessive leaps of illogic to make it mean something else, the author is not going to bother to show up and spell it out in big flaming letters "HEY MORON, ILLYA IS A TEN-YEAR-OLD HUMAN GIRL WHO IS AGING NORMALLY, THAT'S WHY I SHOWED YOU THOSE FLASHBACKS IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE, STOP BEING AN IDIOT."

I hardly see how my theory is 'illogical'. If you're going to brandish such terms, at least explain yourself. As I said, it's simply an alternate explanation, based on what happens in F/SN and F/Z.

There's no point in showing us scenes of her being a baby or a child or any signs of her being normal (which there have been) if she were really a homunculus, because we would have already been assuming she was a homunculus anyway. There would be no reason to have done any of those reveals the way they were done.

Perhaps to demonstrate how different this Illya is from canon Illya? You seem to forget that this series doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's based off of something.

Sigh. It annoys me rather excessively when people insist on trying to find complicated explanations for things while ignoring the simple and narratively-cohesive one that's right in front of them.

I could say the same to you, ignoring explanations based off canon, simply because you dislike it.

And who here is arguing that she's a regular human? Of course she's different! That is not what I was arguing and it's not the statement of YOURS that I was arguing with. Don't try changing the subject. You said there was no evidence that Illya aged. I presented evidence. Ergo, you were wrong. That was the point of that statement.

You realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You're ignoring "the simple, narratively-cohesive" explanation that Illya is a homunculus, and her parents fixed the aging issue, and going for some odd theory about Illya being a human.

If she is, why does she have all these odd powers, then? It just brings up a host of unanswerable questions.

[Myssa Rei]

People are forgetting one person in this argument: Shirou. It's because we're not seeing his flashbacks that the ambiguity exists to begin with, but even with some of his comments -- see his "Whoah, I haven't see you dressed like that in a long time" at Liz's uniform -- you'd think he'd show some reaction to something off, the biggest of which would be his younger sister not aging normally.

I mean, both Liz and Sella, aside from being Eizbern maids, seem quite different from the way they were in F/HA, where they were both homunculi barely 2 years old made by Illya herself. Shirou's comment that "it's been a long time" to me points to them being around for longer than that, maybe to around when Iri and Kiritsugu moved to Japan permanently.