American Comics Today

[DonQuigleone]

Also, I don't see why it's so important for a comic to "make a serious point" for it to be in any way worthy. It's entertainment. That's not to say serious comics shouldn't exist (good example: Persepolis or Watchmen), but there's a lot to be said for silly fun. The worst thing that can happen to silly fun is for it to suddenly turn around and try to make a point about the world. For instance it would have been a huge downer if suddenly Goku started to take Performance enhancing drugs in order to better train and win against Freeza, and suddenly Bulma started telling him he was taking things too far, and he should think about Gohan, as Gohan looks up to him etc. etc.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

For instance it would have been a huge downer if suddenly Goku started to take Performance enhancing drugs in order to better train and win against Freeza, and suddenly Bulma started telling him he was taking things too far, and he should think about Gohan, as Gohan looks up to him etc. etc.

Which is a pretty damn retarded moral anyway


It's not like you're roiding up to fight a competition. You're roiding up to save the human race from alien annihilation. I think that ranks higher than sports ethics.

[Ithekro]

That would be a viable arguement if it was for one of those tournaments, but fighting Freeza over the fate of the planet? Hell, anything to save the world goes. Even Batman will use a gun to save the Earth if there is no other option.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

There were a lot of great Japanese films made in the 50s and 60s (see Akira Kurosawa, etc.), and American movies were imported back then too.

Exceptions to the rule. The epicenter of good quality television and movies were in America.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I may be off by a decade, it's still a relatively recent phenomena compared to American Comics (which go back to the 30s and earlier)

Not really. Superman, the first superhero started in 1936 I believe. Then the first inception of modern manga was in the mid 40's. That's not very far off at all. If you want to throw the superhero genre (a.k.a. modern), then American comics go back further. But if you throw out the modern form of manga, then that goes back further too, before contact with the United States and their comics were made.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I never said they weren't iconic, just not as iconic as Manga (from your own point that there are manga characters everywhere, representing prefectures etc.). You don't see American states with their own super-hero mascot. On the other hand most Colleges do have a cartoony mascot so...

You questioned it. And attacked it. It's right here:

Clearly the Manga companies were succesful at making their product iconic in that time. Meanwhile American comic icons faded from their position.

That's a completely false fabrication seeing as Superman is probably the most iconic comic book character to have ever been created. And other American comic book characters have been around for decades. I don't see how they faded away seeing as they're still around and being embedded in various media like big budget movies and video games. If anything they've gotten more popular.

My point is that they shouldn't have changed Superman to be less campy in the first place. They should instead have started other franchises that were squarely aimed at adults. Or had an adult Superman line and a kids superman line (though that could get confusing).

If there was a decent marketing push, and it established a presence in Libraries and newsagents, I think Comics could come back over a number of years. I'd put $1,000 down on that. Kids will always find the same stuff entertaining whereever and whenever you go, so long as it makes sense (IE is written in their language, is not obsolescent in the technology it depicts. They wouldn't be impressed if Bruce wayne had a mobile phone now, whereas they would have in 1950).

So you would actually put a significant amount of money down that children would drop the video games and run straight for the campy American comic books? Doesn't matter if there would be a decent market push. This isn't the 1950's where they was nothing else to do except read comic books. American audiences have different tastes due to cultural upbringing that comic books have had to adapt too. You make all the superheros campy these days and you lose the adult audience. And then you have no audiences because children wouldn't go for that with every other distraction around. All you would have would be a bunch of complaints. That stuff may work in Japan, but it wouldn't work here with Americans...especially if you consider the type of cultural mannerisms here compared to Japan.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Didn't Son Goku wear a gi every day because he was training most of the time?


Though it's not really the outfits. It's the fact that you have a world with super powered freaks running around punching eachother at mach 10 and with hyper powered energy rays. But at no point does Dragon Ball Z ever ask us to seriously sit down and contemplate the ethics/politics/sociology of super heroes. It's just an action packed romp where people act silly one minute than beat the crap out of each other the next.

My issue isn't that many American comics ask me to turn my brain off for some silly things. My issue is they ask me to partially turn it back on to intelligently examine some aspects of their story lines, while double thinking to ignore the silly stuff.

And I like stuff like that too, but I think I'm the exception to what most American audiences would like. At least the older crowd. We as adults like to have things we can relate too. American comics hits that. If you started throwing Dragonball Z and Naruto filled comics at older American audiences they'd puke and probably be turned off. American's love drama, and they love to relate, and they love for things to make sense. But it will work with the children here...who have probably grown up with a good amount of anime anyways since it's been really big in the states now for at least 15 years. So while a world filled with superheroes doesn't make sense, the ideals behind a lot of these characters that have been established and the backstories have some degree authenticity and realism to it. An anime like Dragonball doesn't fit that mold. It's probably why I'm more in tune with more serious anime now and days. The gleamy eyed, Japanese custom manner mantra you see in manga...that wouldn't fly with American audiences that are older. And then if you try to turn that into a big budget film...oy.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Samari

Exceptions to the rule. The epicenter of good quality television and movies were in America.

I think that's a very US-centric attitude to take. Certainly the US had the largest movie industry, but I'd argue that US television was far inferior to british television all the way to the present, I can't comment on Japanese television.

[quote]
Not really. Superman, the first superhero started in 1936 I believe. Then the first inception of modern manga was in the mid 40's. That's not very far off at all. If you want to throw the superhero genre (a.k.a. modern), then American comics go back further. But if you throw out the modern form of manga, then that goes back further too, before contact with the United States and their comics were made.
[/quote
Modern Manga started with Tezuka copying American Animated styles, Tezuka, as you said, started off in the 50s. Prior to that Manga as we know it did not exist. Comic books as we know it did.

That's a completely false fabrication seeing as Superman is probably the most iconic comic book character to have ever been created. And other American comic book characters have been around for decades. I don't see how they faded away seeing as they're still around and being embedded in various media like big budget movies and video games. If anything they've gotten more popular.

He's not as iconic as he used to be as I no longer see him in any advertisements shilling products. Also I mean comics as a whole. I don't see any mascots or anything outside of comics drawn in the traditional comic book style. The characters are still well-known, but they don't have that pervasive presence that, say, the simpsons have.

So you would actually put a significant amount of money down that children would drop the video games and run straight for the campy American comic books? Doesn't matter if there would be a decent market push. This isn't the 1950's where they was nothing else to do except read comic books. American audiences have different tastes due to cultural upbringing that comic books have had to adapt too. You make all the superheros campy these days and you lose the adult audience. And then you have no audiences because children wouldn't go for that with every other distraction around. All you would have would be a bunch of complaints. That stuff may work in Japan, but it wouldn't work here with Americans...especially if you consider the type of cultural mannerisms here compared to Japan.

I was a child under a decade ago, I played many computer games. I also read a lot of Asterix and Obelix. Kids aren't going to abandon their Computer Games. they'll do both. As a kid I played Computer games, read books, comic books, watched television and Movies, traded cards. Kids regularly take up new fads. I mean how about kids in the 90s enmasse trading Pokemon Cards? That kind of thing hadn't been seen since Baseball cards. As I said, provided there was the correct type of marketting, it could and would work.

Also I'm not just talking about America, I'm talking about Britain and Ireland too...

And you wouldn't "make all the superheroes campy" losing the adult audience. You'd introduce new comics to be campy and appeal to children.

And I like stuff like that too, but I think I'm the exception to what most American audiences would like. At least the older crowd. We as adults like to have things we can relate too. American comics hits that. If you started throwing Dragonball Z and Naruto filled comics at older American audiences they'd puke and probably be turned off. American's love drama, and they love to relate, and they love for things to make sense. But it will work with the children here...who have probably grown up with a good amount of anime anyways since it's been really big in the states now for at least 15 years. So while a world filled with superheroes doesn't make sense, the ideals behind a lot of these characters that have been established and the backstories have some degree authenticity and realism to it. An anime like Dragonball doesn't fit that mold. It's probably why I'm more in tune with more serious anime now and days. The gleamy eyed, Japanese custom manner mantra you see in manga...that wouldn't fly with American audiences that are older. And then if you try to turn that into a big budget film...oy.

Which is why you don't throw DBZ and Naruto at adults. For adults you might introduce them to something more similiar to Naoki Urusawa. You don't need to manufacture one group of comics for everyone. You manufacture many different types of comics that would each appeal to someone. This is why Manga is successful, it had a larger output, in a wide variety of genres. Everyone can find a manga that appeals to them, from the housewife to the Salaryman to the kid on his way too school. They all have something to read.

[Ithekro]

Superman isn't used for commercials anymore because he is expensive as all get out to use. That and there is an ongoing fight over who gets to say what he is used for, hense the essentually court ordered film they just started producing.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Superman isn't used for commercials anymore because he is expensive as all get out to use. That and there is an ongoing fight over who gets to say what he is used for, hense the essentually court ordered film they just started producing.

Superman is just an example. I don't know of any other comic book characters shilling breakfast cereals at the moment either. Disney characters etc. do it all the time, but not comic book characters. I can only conclude they don't have quite the selling power they used to have.

[Ithekro]

Are they are being targeted at an older demographic these days...teenagers.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Are they are being targeted at an older demographic these days...teenagers.

Better to get them while they're young -er- I mean if people are introduced to something at a younger age they're more likely to continue with it as they get older.

Whew, saved.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Samari

And I like stuff like that too, but I think I'm the exception to what most American audiences would like. At least the older crowd. We as adults like to have things we can relate too. American comics hits that. If you started throwing Dragonball Z and Naruto filled comics at older American audiences they'd puke and probably be turned off. American's love drama, and they love to relate, and they love for things to make sense. But it will work with the children here...who have probably grown up with a good amount of anime anyways since it's been really big in the states now for at least 15 years. So while a world filled with superheroes doesn't make sense, the ideals behind a lot of these characters that have been established and the backstories have some degree authenticity and realism to it. An anime like Dragonball doesn't fit that mold. It's probably why I'm more in tune with more serious anime now and days. The gleamy eyed, Japanese custom manner mantra you see in manga...that wouldn't fly with American audiences that are older. And then if you try to turn that into a big budget film...oy.

Where did I say people who wanted mature plot lines needed to start watching Naruto or Dragon Ball Z? My entire point was that bringing up the silly elements of Dragon Ball Z compared to American comics wasn't a valid comparison because Dragon Ball Z never aimed to be a deep serious commentary about anything.

If you're going to compare Naruto/DBZ to anything, it's pulpy silver age American comics. THIS is why I'll sit down for something like DBZ/Naruto/One Piece and not comment about the silliness of the setup, while I'm more critical of American comics which try to present a serious message.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Where did I say people who wanted mature plot lines needed to start watching Naruto or Dragon Ball Z? My entire point was that bringing up the silly elements of Dragon Ball Z compared to American comics wasn't a valid comparison because Dragon Ball Z never aimed to be a deep serious commentary about anything.

If you're going to compare Naruto/DBZ to anything, it's pulpy silver age American comics. THIS is why I'll sit down for something like DBZ/Naruto/One Piece and not comment about the silliness of the setup, while I'm more critical of American comics which try to present a serious message.

I'm just saying what older American audiences would go for. And it wouldn't be a lot of the manga that is out there...which I usually see children reading in the states.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I think that's a very US-centric attitude to take. Certainly the US had the largest movie industry, but I'd argue that US television was far inferior to british television all the way to the present, I can't comment on Japanese television.

Can we agree that the place was not Japan then? I don't see how it could be especially after the war.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

Modern Manga started with Tezuka copying American Animated styles, Tezuka, as you said, started off in the 50s. Prior to that Manga as we know it did not exist. Comic books as we know it did.

You're forgetting Sazae-san by Machiko Hasegawa. That started in the mid 1940's and is considered a part of modern manga. So about ten years after the first Superman comic book. Not that big of a difference.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

He's not as iconic as he used to be as I no longer see him in any advertisements shilling products. Also I mean comics as a whole. I don't see any mascots or anything outside of comics drawn in the traditional comic book style. The characters are still well-known, but they don't have that pervasive presence that, say, the simpsons have.

He's iconic enough. The fact that practically the entire world knows who Superman is (especially compared to any anime character) should be enough proof. Seriously what anime/manga character has more recognition than Superman world wide? Can you even name one? And you're trying to tell me he's not that iconic because he's not on the cover of some cereal box? That logic is strawman. Especially when the icon is having movies, video games, toys and cartoons being made year after year. Not to mention countless other merchandise. Who cares if he's not on the cover of a cereal box. If you want to say that comics aren't advertising as much anymore, then fine. I'll buy that. But to detract from Superman's legacy using the logic you're trying to convey is just ridiculous. I'm sorry. He'll probably be on a cereal box when the next Superman movie comes out anyways. Not that he needs the recognition.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

I was a child under a decade ago, I played many computer games. I also read a lot of Asterix and Obelix. Kids aren't going to abandon their Computer Games. they'll do both. As a kid I played Computer games, read books, comic books, watched television and Movies, traded cards. Kids regularly take up new fads. I mean how about kids in the 90s enmasse trading Pokemon Cards? That kind of thing hadn't been seen since Baseball cards. As I said, provided there was the correct type of marketting, it could and would work.

Also I'm not just talking about America, I'm talking about Britain and Ireland too...

And you wouldn't "make all the superheroes campy" losing the adult audience. You'd introduce new comics to be campy and appeal to children.

Except the video games today are a lot more innovative and cool looking than they were decades ago. When Super Nintendo was out people still went outside. Now that you have PS3 and XBOX, not to mention the internet and things like WOW, it's a lot more difficult to put down the controller. Same reason why arcades are ghost towns now. The games at home got better. Especially since you can play with other people a lot easier across the globe. If you believe that if you take what is mainstream right now in comic books, make it campy, and the older audience wouldn't lose taste, then so be it. You'd be in for a rude awakening. Especially since there is so much scrutiny with writers now and days in comic books by a lot of the fans.

Originally Posted by donquigleone

Which is why you don't throw DBZ and Naruto at adults. For adults you might introduce them to something more similiar to Naoki Urusawa. You don't need to manufacture one group of comics for everyone. You manufacture many different types of comics that would each appeal to someone. This is why Manga is successful, it had a larger output, in a wide variety of genres. Everyone can find a manga that appeals to them, from the housewife to the Salaryman to the kid on his way too school. They all have something to read.

There are comics that exist for children that are produced by even the big guys like Marvel and DC I'm sure. Or at least companies under them like Vertigo. They're targeting kids, but the comics aren't selling. Even when you do something like Young Justice and put in comic book form. So there are even heroes that are well known in comics aimed at kids. Can't blame the publishers for that. American kids just aren't into comic books. And that's not their fault. American culture has grown differently than Japan. And so have their social tastes. American comic publishers are just following the trend. You change things now radically and take the mainstream titles and target them at younger audiences that's just going to end up pissing the majority of the buyers off. And you'd lose that audience on a gamble that American children would put down the video games, go offline run to the store and pick up a comic book. A very critical audience by the way (the older crowd).

[TrueKnight]

I grew up reading comic books superheroes like Superman, Spiderman and X-Men but only casually. Eventhough I like manga, the comic are a league of their own, and I like their art. Example of fond memories The Death of Superman where they threw in the Eradicator, Man of Steel, Superboy and Cyborg Superman.... my memory's a bit fuzzy but I think its around 1993.

Agree with Samari on the icon thing, nearly every people in the world knew who were Spiderman, Superman, and Batman are, be it young, adult or eldery. But you have to also give credit to Hollywood being one of the most effective global branding machine ever and how they work closely with the comic publishers to actually capture the characters and personalities of the figures to resemble like real people would have, which would attract audiences. You just don’t see Japan doing the same thing due to their isolationist culture tendency and language barrier.

And as a person who's involved in dealings and transactions with several game companies I have to say the views that games are targeted for kids are crap. This prejudice had officially ended when the US game industry reached around US$ 6 billion back then around 2007. Corporate conglomerates investing billions of dollars to produce and furnish quality game products targeting them to mostly adults, which are the most stable market share. Right now, the game industry estimated to have a world global sales nearing US$ 60 billion, where it surpasses the comic industry (and to some extent entertainment) worldwide.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Indeed, the setting suits the tone of the story. When you mix two stories with radically different tones the results are schizophrenic. And it's even worse with fantasy as then you get logical inconsistencies. For instance the existence of superman renders all other superheroes as unnessecary, and more. With Marvel why doesn't Spiderman get labelled as a mutant the way the X-men do? Where are all the Mutants in Spider-man's new york if they're so common in X-men (common enough to be discriminated against) etc.

This is something I've been pondering about for a while now. The X-men world just seems so different from the rest of the Marvel World that fitting them together doesn't seem to work. From what I remember, one of the core central themes in X-men is whole racism undertone with the fear and oppression of mutant kind. However, when they're brought in to the entire Marvel Universe, the whole fear of mutants thing doesn't make much sense considering how pretty much all superheroes are mutants, but a lot of them are recognized/loved by the general public.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

So my earlier response to your post just kinda doesn't count then? I'm not an ardent fan at all and I love crossovers. Thus, your statement is untrue by default. You're free to dislike crossovers - hell, it's a pretty minor little thing. But your opinion doesn't represent every casual fan. Personally, I think it makes sense for these heroes to be in the same universe. A world of heroes and villains filled with fantastical powers, sci-fi tech, magic wielders, etc, makes more sense to me than a regular world with one random super-person and another seemingly random pantheon of super-villains. In a world of heroes and villains, the individual players actually have some context. If they're each in their separate world, they lose that.

Now, that's just my take, don't know how many ardent or casual fans feel similarly but there you have it.

I think if you've grew up on it, you'll be fine with it, but I've been trying to get into Superhero comics for a while now, and I definitely dislike most cross-overs. I generally only read the stand-alone books and or alternate universe 1-shots.

One example where the whole marvel universe thing got me kind of turned off was Runaways. The comic didn't really need to tie into the Marvel Universe, but it did (I'm guessing for sales) even though all the tie ins were completely unnecessary and didn't add anything to the story. For me at least, it broke my immersion in the world and took me out of the story.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

My issue isn't that many American comics ask me to turn my brain off for some silly things. My issue is they ask me to partially turn it back on to intelligently examine some aspects of their story lines, while double thinking to ignore the silly stuff.
Out of that list I've only read Kingdom Come. But I'll point out that Kingdom Come is God Tier in quality as far as American comics are concerned in terms of the art and how they approach the situation in the world. You also have to consider is that these storylines while epic, are limited AU runs not directly connected with the larger normal continuity. That's one of the reasons why they can go and rock the boat, and not have the things they changed reset in a subsequent storyline.


If I will give credit to Marvel/DC, the alternate/future self contained arcs they do on occasion can be incredibly good. (Like Batman Beyond).

Kingdom Come is a really good example of crossovers done right. Even though the entire cast of the DC Universe is present, the story does a good job of illustrating how all the superheroes fit into the world, and the repercussions of having so many supers running rampant. In fact, one of the themes the story tries to deal with is just how supers can co-exist with governments, and the problems that can occur from clash of interests.

For other Superman titles, I enjoyed Red Son and Secret Identitiy. Again, both stories detailed how the Supermen fit into their respective worlds, and how the world reacted. The Batman crossover in Red Son was pretty well done too.

Right now, the only superhero comic I'm following is Kick-Ass 2.

Regarding the whole Superhero movies thing, I thought this blog addressed an interesting issue: http://www.comicbookdaily.com/wp/blo...ic-book-sales/

Basically, even though the movies do extremely well, they're not actually bringing significant amount of new readers to the comic book series. One reason is that movie continuity is generally in it's own separate universe, and there's no easy way for a casual viewer to jump into the current comic lines and essentially 'follow up' on the movie's story direction.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Basically, even though the movies do extremely well, they're not actually bringing significant amount of new readers to the comic book series. One reason is that movie continuity is generally in it's own separate universe, and there's no easy way for a casual viewer to jump into the current comic lines and essentially 'follow up' on the movie's story direction.

There are some storylines that do follow in close with the book when the actual movie comes out. At the same time, comics are constantly in effect. Movies on a superhero are few and far between in terms of years. Main titles can't just stop a story arc to fit the scheme of a movie. It's unrealistic and ridiculous. The hype of a movie eventually fades anyways as does the temporary renewed interest of a new buyer/reader.

This should be expected though. Movies do help sales of comics a little bit when the hype of the movie is around, but it will fade. This dynamic has been known for quite some time.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Samari

You're forgetting Sazae-san by Machiko Hasegawa. That started in the mid 1940's and is considered a part of modern manga. So about ten years after the first Superman comic book. Not that big of a difference.

Sazae-san doesn't look at all like modern manga, and it's in strip form. It's more like Calvin and Hobbes then any of the modern manga we know.

He's iconic enough. The fact that practically the entire world knows who Superman is (especially compared to any anime character) should be enough proof. Seriously what anime/manga character has more recognition than Superman world wide? Can you even name one? And you're trying to tell me he's not that iconic because he's not on the cover of some cereal box? That logic is strawman. Especially when the icon is having movies, video games, toys and cartoons being made year after year. Not to mention countless other merchandise. Who cares if he's not on the cover of a cereal box. If you want to say that comics aren't advertising as much anymore, then fine. I'll buy that. But to detract from Superman's legacy using the logic you're trying to convey is just ridiculous. I'm sorry. He'll probably be on a cereal box when the next Superman movie comes out anyways. Not that he needs the recognition.

Superman is, as is Batman, but what about the Green Lantern? Flash? A few famous comic characters are very iconic, as is Astro-boy in Japan, but comic book characters in themselves are not. Manga has much more presence in Japan then Comic Books do in the West, that is my core point.

Except the video games today are a lot more innovative and cool looking than they were decades ago. When Super Nintendo was out people still went outside. Now that you have PS3 and XBOX, not to mention the internet and things like WOW, it's a lot more difficult to put down the controller. Same reason why arcades are ghost towns now. The games at home got better. Especially since you can play with other people a lot easier across the globe. If you believe that if you take what is mainstream right now in comic books, make it campy, and the older audience wouldn't lose taste, then so be it. You'd be in for a rude awakening. Especially since there is so much scrutiny with writers now and days in comic books by a lot of the fans.

If video games are so amazing then how kids still go outside and play with such primitive things as balls. Also most computer games are NOT aimed at kids. It's still mario and Tetris for them. Most parents won't let their 5 year olds near Halo or GTA. Likewise what kids play WOW? I don't think I can imagine any 5 year olds ever playing something like that, or persuading their parents to give up a monthly fee. Kids are an entirely different ballgame to Teenagers, which is what you're describing. Also I've been playing games for years now, and I love them dearly, but they're not significantly better now then they were in 1995, they certainly look better, but gameplay is of a similiar quality (albeit more streamlined).

There are comics that exist for children that are produced by even the big guys like Marvel and DC I'm sure. Or at least companies under them like Vertigo. They're targeting kids, but the comics aren't selling. Even when you do something like Young Justice and put in comic book form. So there are even heroes that are well known in comics aimed at kids. Can't blame the publishers for that. American kids just aren't into comic books. And that's not their fault. American culture has grown differently than Japan. And so have their social tastes. American comic publishers are just following the trend. You change things now radically and take the mainstream titles and target them at younger audiences that's just going to end up pissing the majority of the buyers off. And you'd lose that audience on a gamble that American children would put down the video games, go offline run to the store and pick up a comic book. A very critical audience by the way (the older crowd).

I'M NOT ADVOCATING MAKING ALL COMICS CAMPY, just some comics. If you can't get kids into reading comics, then comic will die. People tend to continue as adults, hobbies they had as kids. You could make your arguments with the Teenage market, but not with kids, as kids across the world are exactly the same (bar language). If American comics produced now for kids are failing, it's because they're not doing it right. They're not marketting it right, they're not producing the right content, they're not getting it into public places where kids can find them. But if the comic is good, the kid will read it. Kids are bored all the time, hell they'll even read normal books with the right encouragement. Look at the continued success Dr. Suess continues to have.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Samari

I'm just saying what older American audiences would go for. And it wouldn't be a lot of the manga that is out there...which I usually see children reading in the states.

Well that's the logical consequence of trying to transition from pulp to serious stories



Though my issue isn't even that comics should try to be more pulpy. I'm just pointing out that the current set up for the main Marvel/DC universes do limit how effectively they can tell the more mature stories they often talk about pursuing.

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Kingdom Come is a really good example of crossovers done right. Even though the entire cast of the DC Universe is present, the story does a good job of illustrating how all the superheroes fit into the world, and the repercussions of having so many supers running rampant. In fact, one of the themes the story tries to deal with is just how supers can co-exist with governments, and the problems that can occur from clash of interests.

Hence why Kingdom Come was good.

Though it also has the advantage of being an alternate continuity, which allowed them to end on a definate note with the set up of the world they started out with fundamentally changed. You can't do this in the regular shared universes at Marvel/DC. Just look at Civil War climatically killing of Captain America. How long did that last? A bit more than two years? Kinda hampers the whole *character dying being a big deal in universe* aspect.

[Ithekro]

Who stays dead in comics?

[scraggy]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Who stays dead in comics?

jean grey and only jean grey

[Royal_Devil]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Who stays dead in comics?

Used to be, "The only people who stay dead in comics, are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."

Now it's just Uncle Ben