[Manga] Naruto Chapter 526 Discussion

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, you point that out quite well. The Nara seem to be the secret weapon of Konoha. They are so ultimately intelligent that they can turn the tides.
Kumo seem to be warmongers, Kiri was suppressed by Madara and so on. Iwa seems to be quite dangerous, but I'd say second most intelligent is definitely Suna.
Suna have people like Temari and Gaara, who are quite clever, too. The part with Chiyo has given us insight on it, but we've also seen that they lack medics. Even the young Sakura had superior medic skills concerning antidoes for example. Of course the life energy healing technique was something special.

Kumo are definitely the most stupid ones and Iwa seem to be pretty irascible.

Kishi always put special emphasis in team work... and we could say that allies are now a big team work effort. Their cons are corrected by the combined efforts of each village. That's why they knew that the only way to fight Madara was with an alliance.

It would be pretty easy for Madara to win against each Village, but it's a whole different history now because in this case the 5 villages plus the samurais aren't 6 but much more (Sinergy).

[Haak]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Um dont you mean ten thousand?

Lol. That's the second time that's happened to me on the same day. XD

The first time was when I had a 50p coin and two 20p coins and couldn't get it round my head that I had 90p and not 80p.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Well... in front of them is the oldest kage and the youngest one, besides Gaara always was feared as one of the most powerful ninjas alive. So i think that in terms of power it's balanced.

I like how Kishi created the daimyos... they're so innocent and living their own world and i think that one of the great lines from this chapter is when Genma said to Raido that choosing medals was for what the Daimyos are.

gaara was considered to be one of the most feared ninja alive when he was a jinchuuriki. nowadays, he's still a skilled ninja but without the ichibi we can't say that he's as powerful as he was before. he can still use his sand jutsu but as to what extent we don't know.

there's a reason why kinkaku and ginkaku were called kage-killers, kishi wouldn't hype them up if there isn't. so for them to be defeated easily would be disappointing. personally, i'd like to see them fight. i'm hoping they'd have some interesting techniques to show.

hmmm...i'm not too fond by kishi's portrayal of the daimyo though. japanese history tells us that they were quite the bloodthirsty, power-hungry and scheming bunch of war lords. they gathered armies of the best samurai to fight their wars, and employed ninja to do their dirty work. they fought and conquered neighboring daimyo and expanded their domain. some of them were even trained samurai so to have them depicted as silly, brainless idiots is a bit insulting to their legacy. oh well, it's just a fictional series, after all.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by solidguy

No they can't. Darui was actually introduced back in the kage meeting. And he was actualy quite popular. We seem to love those lazy dopey eyed bad-asses. He is the one that A has chosen to pas down the will of lightning to.

Popular? That guy wasn't popular at all. Kirabi is popular. Not Darui. Kishi didn't do much with the bodyguards at the Summit.

It was A's father that passed down the Black Lightening to him. Nothing about A.

Originally Posted by ronin myael

there's a reason why kinkaku and ginkaku were called kage-killers, kishi wouldn't hype them up if there isn't. so for them to be defeated easily would be disappointing. personally, i'd like to see them fight. i'm hoping they'd have some interesting techniques to show.

They'll have plenty to show. It's always bad news when villains keep their techniques secret. After they rape lightening guy, I can also see them taking out the old Ino-Shika-Cho. They are going to take a few ninja down with them before the backup arrives.

Originally Posted by ronin myael

hmmm...i'm not too fond by kishi's portrayal of the daimyo though. japanese history tells us that they were quite the bloodthirsty, power-hungry and scheming bunch of war lords. they gathered armies of the best samurai to fight their wars, and employed ninja to do their dirty work. they fought and conquered neighboring daimyo and expanded their domain. some of them were even trained samurai so to have them depicted as silly, brainless idiots is a bit insulting to their legacy. oh well, it's just a fictional series, after all.

These clowns are different than the historical Daimyo. The Naruto Daimyo are more like European nobility who are generally portrayed as out of touch and inept.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by DeDe

I am not sure why Onoki went to the Fourth Division now. Aren't they just suppose to stall and not engage the Kages?

From what was explained last chapter, Muu's abilities could be a major gamebreaker for Shikaku's strategy and so he needs to be dealt with in order to ensure success. Onoki's the best person suited to fight him.

Originally Posted by Cael

Kages aside, who does Kumo have who's so superior? Samui? We have yet to see any of her abilities. Karui and Omoi? They are a little above the level of the Konoha 11. Tango? He's working the radio. Tenga idolizes Inoichi and Shii is a medical and genjutsu using sensor.

Uh, Killer Bee? Formerly they also had Yugito.

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, what will Gaara do to his father? Forgive him? Kill him?
I wonder what that 4th Kazekage can do. Is he powerful? Considerably, yes, but how powerful is he?

Gaara will forgive him and then probably kill him. I do really want to see how their reunion plays out though. The kazekage seemed really cold-blooded, but what we learned about him was from Gaara's point-of-view (and what he learned from Yashumaru). We might found out his treatment of Gaara wasn't what it seemed, much like Itachi's feelings for Sasuke.

In terms of power we know the 4th kazekage isn't considered as powerful as the 3rd by the Suna elders. 4th and his bodyguards were killed by Oro (possibly w/ Kimimaro's aid) so I don't think he was ever considered to be a major powerhouse by the readers. But he should be able to go toe-to-toe with Gaara.

[Kotengu]

I really wanna see some teamwork and get farther away from all this fan service with 'cool' ninja poses and one liners. Awesome battle choreography and creative jutsu teamups is what I wanna see.

I had assumed the reason Konoha has been superior to other villages is cuz of the variety of jutsu they can use in combination to the teamwork of the ninja using them.

So far it's only been 1~2 ninja taking out 1~3 ninja by themselves. Kishi has a real opportunity to get some mass attack team ninja play going on. This is what I'm dying to see. It's been set up, so I hope he spikes it in soon.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Kotengu

I really wanna see some teamwork and get farther away from all this fan service with 'cool' ninja poses and one liners. Awesome battle choreography and creative jutsu teamups is what I wanna see.

I had assumed the reason Konoha has been superior to other villages is cuz of the variety of jutsu they can use in combination to the teamwork of the ninja using them.

So far it's only been 1~2 ninja taking out 1~3 ninja by themselves. Kishi has a real opportunity to get some mass attack team ninja play going on. This is what I'm dying to see. It's been set up, so I hope he spikes it in soon.

But most ninja travel in squads of 3 or 4. Too many more and problems begin to arise. So teamwork with high numbers is not something that the ninja have practice doing.

Besides, Kakashi worked with at least three other ninja to subdue Zabuza.

Still, it would be rather amazing to see.

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by Kotengu

I had assumed the reason Konoha has been superior to other villages is cuz of the variety of jutsu they can use in combination to the teamwork of the ninja using them.

Not really. They were losing the last war horribly until Minato came and turned the whole war by himself with his hax jutsu.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Kishi always put special emphasis in team work... and we could say that allies are now a big team work effort. Their cons are corrected by the combined efforts of each village. That's why they knew that the only way to fight Madara was with an alliance.

It would be pretty easy for Madara to win against each Village, but it's a whole different history now because in this case the 5 villages plus the samurais aren't 6 but much more (Sinergy).

Indeed. At least Kishi doesn't make the same mistakes Akira Toriyama made. In DBZ, side characters were so weak they couldn't do anything. In fact, it all came down to one man who could save the universe.

It's okay to have strong and weak people, but it's not okay to make characters completely useless. At the moment, everyone seems to have a purpose.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Indeed. At least Kishi doesn't make the same mistakes Akira Toriyama made. In DBZ, side characters were so weak they couldn't do anything. In fact, it all came down to one man who could save the universe.

It's okay to have strong and weak people, but it's not okay to make characters completely useless. At the moment, everyone seems to have a purpose.

Toriyama didn't make a mistake, it's standard that in shonen the main hero raises above all his friends. Naruto is the same, when he fought Pain the others were specifically told to not interfere, by your logic that's even worse than Goku fighting Freeza, because in that fight everyone of Goku's friends had a purpose and a chance to fight. Even in the last battle against Cell some of the weaker guys had an important role. Here Kishimoto uses this war to give some screen time to the weaker people like Choji and Tenten, but it's quite clear that they are fighting some fodder while Naruto will fight the bosses. Of course Kishimoto can't use Toriyama's trick of having one character fight at low level then it just keeps powering up during the fight, so that weaker good guys can take turn to fight him, like Freeza did. Let's admit that kind of trick is pretty lame, however Kishimoto uses other tricks instead: usually ninjas begin with weaker moves and they wait with their more powerful moves until they don't have any other option, sometimes like in Jiraiya's case a huge powerup ability of the character is not shown for a long time. But Kishimoto always explains why, and his explanations more or less make sense. For example Itachi not using MS right from the start was explained by the blindness issue, Jiraiya not using his sage mode explained by his problems with sage mode, him not liking to look as an ugly frog, and also by how annoying those two elder frogs can be sometimes. But there were some cases when this looked stupid in retrospective, for example why didn't Chiyo use her 10 super-puppets from the start, or why didn't Madara ever use his reality altering jutsu (izanagi) before Konan forced him, he could have used it against the 4th hokage.

[KiNA]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Konoha has infact been portrayed as OP compared to the other villages. With clans like the uchiha and hyuuga, exceptional ninja such as Itachi and 4th Hokage, its a stretch to believe Konoha hasn't conquered the other shinobi villages already.

Thats because Konoha is under the 3rd Hokage.. who is a pacifist. Which is why Danzo want to usurp him.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Toriyama didn't make a mistake, it's standard that in shonen the main hero raises above all his friends. Naruto is the same, when he fought Pain the others were specifically told to not interfere, by your logic that's even worse than Goku fighting Freeza, because in that fight everyone of Goku's friends had a purpose and a chance to fight.

You got a chance to fight, too. Anyone has the chance to fight, but a chance to fight doesn't mean a chance to win.
It just means some screen time for the character and that's it.
Not to mention the Dragon Ball exploit... Dragon Balls from this and that planet, life exchange and all that weird stuff that was invented in order to let people die for just one sake: influencing other characters.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Even in the last battle against Cell some of the weaker guys had an important role.

The last battle was against Buu and most characters ended up candy or chocolate.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Here Kishimoto uses this war to give some screen time to the weaker people like Choji and Tenten, but it's quite clear that they are fighting some fodder while Naruto will fight the bosses.

The bosses, huh?
I wonder if Naruto will fight all bosses or if he'll just fight that Uchiha Madara. I still expect Naruto to fight Sasuke, but Madara will somehow interrupt when Sasuke's losing and then Sasuke and Naruto will fight Madara but maybe Sasuke will sacrifice himself and Naruto will visit that grave each morning in the manner of Kakashi.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Kishimoto always explains why, and his explanations more or less make sense. For example Itachi not using MS right from the start was explained by the blindness issue, Jiraiya not using his sage mode explained by his problems with sage mode, him not liking to look as an ugly frog, and also by how annoying those two elder frogs can be sometimes.

Well yes, he does explain it and if you have the right eyes, it makes sense...

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

why didn't Madara ever use his reality altering jutsu (izanagi) before Konan forced him, he could have used it against the 4th hokage.

Yo kiddin', kiddow?
We don't even know if he was able to perform that technique back then. He fought the 4th Hokage way before the Uchiha massacre and you can imagine that he didn't have Sharingan on stock back then.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Gaara will forgive him and then probably kill him. I do really want to see how their reunion plays out though.

Yes, yes, yes!!

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The kazekage seemed really cold-blooded, but what we learned about him was from Gaara's point-of-view (and what he learned from Yashumaru). We might found out his treatment of Gaara wasn't what it seemed, much like Itachi's feelings for Sasuke.

In terms of power we know the 4th kazekage isn't considered as powerful as the 3rd by the Suna elders. 4th and his bodyguards were killed by Oro (possibly w/ Kimimaro's aid) so I don't think he was ever considered to be a major powerhouse by the readers. But he should be able to go toe-to-toe with Gaara.

Well, that may be true, but we also know that he was seemingly easily killed by Orochimaru and his henchmen. I wonder how strong he really was. Of course it must have been hard to fight Kimimaro, Orochimaru and Kabuto, but I wonder of all three of them fought him. In the flashback it looked like Kabuto was fighting and Kabuto was defeated by Gaara... Gaara and time of course. Indeed, Gaara might have lost to him if he had been healthy.

[Shiryuu]

If Hizashi still has his seal, does Kimimaro still have his disease? He won't die from it, but it's going to affect his performance if he's coughing in the middle of battle.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

You got a chance to fight, too. Anyone has the chance to fight, but a chance to fight doesn't mean a chance to win.
It just means some screen time for the character and that's it.

I don't think that winning against some fodder is better than losing against bosses. Sure the satisfaction is there when someone wins, but those minor fights just lose importance when the main hero has his "save-the-world" boss fight. And whoever helps him in that fight will be remembered more than those who just fought against some fodder. I mean Kakashi losing against Pain and Kakuzu was more interesting to me than Kakashi fighting and winning against some random fodder ninjas. So Choji, Tenten and the others might do well in this war against the clones but the one who helps Naruto in his boss fight will be the one remembered.

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

The last battle was against Buu and most characters ended up candy or chocolate.

Don't mention that filler crap
Just stick to the real thing, check out Dragon Ball Kai that is being aired right now. Maybe some day a Naruto Kai will be made where all the filler shit will be removed
Dragon Ball was more focused on the main characters, also it had less characters. I wouldn't say that it was better or worse, best to say that it was different. I mean we can't compare the two and say that in Naruto the side characters are treated bad, because Naruto has a lot more side characters so Kishimoto's job is a lot harder than Toriayam's was. Whatever Kishimoto does someone will complain

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

The bosses, huh?
I wonder if Naruto will fight all bosses or if he'll just fight that Uchiha Madara.

Me and most of the readers would be very upset if Naruto was given only one fight, he is the main character so he has to have many boss fights. This Edo Tensei is similar to the dragon balls effect, but the reverse, once killed kage level people can be brought back to fight. For example it is possible that if the current raikage and tsuchikage are killed in this war then Kabuto will sommon them later to fight Naruto or Sasuke.

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

I still expect Naruto to fight Sasuke, but Madara will somehow interrupt when Sasuke's losing and then Sasuke and Naruto will fight Madara but maybe Sasuke will sacrifice himself and Naruto will visit that grave each morning in the manner of Kakashi.

I think it is clear that the current generation will succeed where the previous generations failed. So for example Naruto will successfully save Sasuke as opposed to Jiraiya failing with Orochimaru. And Naruto's team will not be killed as Kakashi's team was. Sure Kishimoto will go to the extremes to let us believe that we were wrong, but in the end he will just do what we expect and end the story with a happy end. By extreme i mean some events that are impossible, for example Pain not killing Hinata but saying tha he killed her or killing Kakashi but bringing him back to life.

[AnbuItachi]

really hope we can get to see Itachi's susanoo in action again! its gonna be mass slaughter!

[Cael]

Now that Sasuke has Itachi's eyes, Sasuke's eyes are available to Madara. The question is... are they even useful to Madara? Is his current sharingan more powerful than Sasuke's Mangekyou or would Sasuke's eyes(or eye) NOT find a new light in Madara?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Don't mention that filler crap
Just stick to the real thing, check out Dragon Ball Kai that is being aired right now. Maybe some day a Naruto Kai will be made where all the filler shit will be removed
Dragon Ball was more focused on the main characters, also it had less characters. I wouldn't say that it was better or worse, best to say that it was different. I mean we can't compare the two and say that in Naruto the side characters are treated bad, because Naruto has a lot more side characters so Kishimoto's job is a lot harder than Toriayam's was. Whatever Kishimoto does someone will complain

The stuff you quoted happened in the original manga. Cell wasn't the final battle. Kai hasn't aired the complete series yet. They're near the end of the Cell games.

But you're right. DBZ was a series where a tiny handful of characters were literally thousands of times more powerful than anyone else on the planet. Naruto is a series where basically everyone is a trained warrior with unique powers. There's weaklings and powerhouses certainly, but the different degrees of strength are more varied and the gaps between them aren't so ridiculously huge. In a way, that makes it easier to keep characters relevant, but then that also means there's going to be a lot more characters who can actually fight. Who gets focus then becomes a problem.

Originally Posted by Cael

Now that Sasuke has Itachi's eyes, Sasuke's eyes are available to Madara. The question is... are they even useful to Madara? Is his current sharingan more powerful than Sasuke's Mangekyou or would Sasuke's eyes(or eye) NOT find a new light in Madara?

I think Madara's Rinnegan trumps Sasuke's Sharingan, but we'll see. I'm still puzzled about what his comment mentioning "synching" Sasuke with Gedo Mazo actually means...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The stuff you quoted happened in the original manga. Cell wasn't the final battle. Kai hasn't aired the complete series yet. They're near the end of the Cell games.

I didn't know that, i read somewhere that DB Kai will have about 90-100 episodes and will cover the original manga only, having all the filler crap cut out. And since we are now at the ep. 92 and at the ending of the Cell games...
But anyway, in my opinion Naruto is the series where it is the easiest to tell if an episode is filler or not, or in other words the fillers in Naruto seem to be much worse than the fillers in One Piece or even DB.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

But you're right. DBZ was a series where a tiny handful of characters were literally thousands of times more powerful than anyone else on the planet. Naruto is a series where basically everyone is a trained warrior with unique powers. There's weaklings and powerhouses certainly, but the different degrees of strength are more varied and the gaps between them aren't so ridiculously huge. In a way, that makes it easier to keep characters relevant, but then that also means there's going to be a lot more characters who can actually fight. Who gets focus then becomes a problem.

The power level of people in DBZ was so much one dimensional, it was in fact measured with one number. Which simply meant that if someone is stronger than someone else then he will surely win, so the only way to win a fight was to have some powerups during battle or something like that. Compared to that the Naruto ninja world is much more interesting, it's richness of jutsu and abilities makes battles really interesting instead of just powering up all the time. In Naruto even the powerups are much more interesting because they often bring new qualities and not just higher quantities. For example the sage taijutsu is not just powerful but also can hit someone without touching, or the MS jutsu is not merely a better fire ninjutsu (amaterasu) or a better genjutsu (tsukiyomi). Even now when Sasuke and Naruto have surpassed kage levels we see that their powers are quite different, Naruto has no genjutsu strength but in other fields he is very strong. Even thou we can see signs of convergence of different kinds of powers into one, one is the evolution of sharingan -> MS -> EMS -> rinnegan. The other are signs about the rinnegan being born into an Uzumaki who was the sage of the 6 paths: Naruto having the the sage's necklace for an unknown reason, Nagato being an Uzumaki, Naruto being called the successor of the Senju.

[AuroraFlash]

First of all, I do miss a lot of people here. What has happened? Where's James? Where are all those who have been writing and commenting on the manga ever since I came here?

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't think that winning against some fodder is better than losing against bosses. Sure the satisfaction is there when someone wins, but those minor fights just lose importance when the main hero has his "save-the-world" boss fight. And whoever helps him in that fight will be remembered more than those who just fought against some fodder. I mean Kakashi losing against Pain and Kakuzu was more interesting to me than Kakashi fighting and winning against some random fodder ninjas. So Choji, Tenten and the others might do well in this war against the clones but the one who helps Naruto in his boss fight will be the one remembered.

Well, winning is important as long as your life is at risk. Concerning Kishimoto's style you're absolutely right. He would never endanger someone important's life. Even Rock Lee was brought back to the battlefield. He could have become the bad example... the example that some are too weak to be ninja.
As we see, no one is too weak to be ninja. It was the damn preparation for the current situation. All that fodder can be explained by Rock Lee being ninja.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Don't mention that filler crap
Just stick to the real thing, check out Dragon Ball Kai that is being aired right now. Maybe some day a Naruto Kai will be made where all the filler shit will be removed

I am confused. I thought Boo was the real thing and no filler stuff. It's the final arc.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Me and most of the readers would be very upset if Naruto was given only one fight, he is the main character so he has to have many boss fights. This Edo Tensei is similar to the dragon balls effect, but the reverse, once killed kage level people can be brought back to fight. For example it is possible that if the current raikage and tsuchikage are killed in this war then Kabuto will sommon them later to fight Naruto or Sasuke.

I don't say he's only getting one fight, but of course there is only that one major fight that means everything.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think it is clear that the current generation will succeed where the previous generations failed. So for example Naruto will successfully save Sasuke as opposed to Jiraiya failing with Orochimaru. And Naruto's team will not be killed as Kakashi's team was. Sure Kishimoto will go to the extremes to let us believe that we were wrong, but in the end he will just do what we expect and end the story with a happy end. By extreme i mean some events that are impossible, for example Pain not killing Hinata but saying tha he killed her or killing Kakashi but bringing him back to life.

Yes, of course. We will see them all being sensei and stuff... maybe Naruto, too. Too bad Asuma's the only man among his generation... xD

Seriously, I can understand why Kakashi has no son. I mean he had some truble with his father's death and Konoha itself. The way it is, he is independent and we know that behind the scene, evil pulled the strings.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

First of all, I do miss a lot of people here. What has happened? Where's James? Where are all those who have been writing and commenting on the manga ever since I came here?

Actually, james made a point about that when he was around. The manga generates interest when it is really good or bad. When it's great, fans want to talk about it. When it's bad, fans want to complain about it. When it's just okay, there tends to not be as much discussion. Right now the manga is just okay. The two lightening rods, Naruto and Sasuke, aren't being focused on. The Konoha 11 haven't done much. Basically unless you are a Kakashi fan, there isn't a whole lot going on right now. Minor characters like Kankurou and Darui all of a sudden doing things aren't really going to excite the audience. But at the same time you don't see everyone complaining about the chapters like every week in the Bleach thread.

When something major happens in the war, like an actual meaningful death, or fighting with characters we care about, then the interest should go up.

As for Dragon Ball Kai, I thought I read that it wasn't as much to cut out any non-canon filler, as to trim down the padding. I never saw DBZ, but I read a lot of the criticism was the amount of padding episodes had. Like characters would stare and yap at each other for 10 minutes while they were floating up in the air before fighting. Kai was going to cut out the fat and get to the meat.