Do you eat meat?

[ChainLegacy]

But the issue is we CAN'T be sure of that. You can't just sit here from your computer and decide that just because animals are heterotrophic they somehow have a stronger experiential bond with you than plant life. The fact of the matter is, were I to somehow today be turned into an anteater and then an oak tree I have no freakin' clue how aware I'd be in either body. I simply don't know. Yes, animals can possess complex nervous systems, but so what? These are intrinsically linked to their environment and how they evolved. The human experience, based on sight, sentience, and sociality, is not the same as that of every animal. We are being conceited to assume so, if you ask me. Humans are not the center of the universe, and more likely than not our extremely unique adaptations grant us an entirely different view of reality from even other mammals.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

But the issue is we CAN'T be sure of that. You can't just sit here from your computer and decide that just because animals are heterotrophic they somehow have a stronger experiential bond with you than plant life. The fact of the matter is, were I to somehow today be turned into an anteater and then an oak tree I have no freakin' clue how aware I'd be in either body. I simply don't know. Yes, animals can possess complex nervous systems, but so what? These are intrinsically linked to their environment and how they evolved. The human experience, based on sight, sentience, and sociality, is not the same as that of every animal. We are being conceited to assume so, if you ask me. Humans are not the center of the universe, and more likely than not our extremely unique adaptations grant us an entirely different view of reality from even other mammals.

I never said humans and non-human animals are the same. However, I can be at least as certain that my dog feels pain as I can be that an infant feels pain, and I have good reason to assume that he is no less self-aware than an infant.

Actually, I can't even be completely sure anyone but me experiences life in a manner similar to the way I experience it. It is simply a reasonable assumption under certain circumstances, even if a person (or animal) lacks the ability to tell me.

Hm... I already had this discussion several pages back. I'll see if I can find it later.

[Arbitres]

Oh come now, you all are just being silly. We have gone over this, it's easier to agree to disagree and stop trying to argue with a wall. That is your guys' opinions, walls - basically impregnable.


I can't decide what is wrong and what is right, but I think it would be nice if we could acknowledge each other for being individuals and drop this.


Say no or say yes is pretty.... stupid, really. There is more to it then that, obviously. think liking meat, disliking it, or outright hating it is rather trivial -- it's consumed regardless whether or not you like it, dislike, or hate it.


Too much of something is bad for you. That includes both meat and plants. But eating less then required is just as bad.


To be alittle less serious....


Nogitsune, Clovis eats steak. Lots and lots of steak. Don't you want to eat meat, too? Clovis will feed you if you say yes. and afterwards he'll be doing an urban renewal on the cow farms

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I can't decide what is wrong and what is right, but I think it would be nice if we could acknowledge each other for being individuals and drop this.

I don't see the problem with having an amiable discussion. Yes, we are all individuals, no, I probably won't convince anyone here, but we can all get up and leave any time we want.

I like being able to learn more about people's opinions - or at least, half the time I do. ;P

Nogitsune, Clovis eats steak. Lots and lots of steak. Don't you want to eat meat, too? Clovis will feed you if you say yes. and afterwards he'll be doing an urban renewal on the cow farms

Clovis was never shown to eat meat, but he was shown to casually order massacres, so I think I'll just restrict myself to admiring his paintings. xD

[ChainLegacy]

Arbitres, you're assuming there is an element of hostility, but there isn't any from my side or any side as far as I can tell. My mother is a vegetarian, so obviously I don't hate them. I just like discussing with people who have opposing viewpoints because I feel it can do one of two things: A. Enrich my understanding of my own viewpoint as well as the opposing faction's, or the more rare B. change my mind. And if someone is tired of discussing with me they're free to stop... it isn't like I'm going to keep posting calling them out on it.

Nogitsune, my main point is that even the animals with which we share an evolutionary history are capable of experiencing vastly different realities, no doubt some of them are probably not even aware of their existence beyond their own instincts. Given this information, I personally feel that we might be too quick to assume plants aren't experiencing pain or suffering. I feel our understanding of consciousness, sentience, and awareness is at the present moment too narrow to conclude this.

[raile]

Yeah, I eat meat. And I LOVE it.

[Wervy]

Of course I eat meat, why wouldnt I? Humans have canine teeth, they are supoed to eat meat.

I have no problem with people who dont eat mean, its their choice and I really dont care if it dosent affect me. Of couse, if someone working under me isnt eat correctly and is suffering heathwise, its affecting their work so I would tell them to eat right or not come back to work. Its one thing if your fucking up your body by not eating right, but dont expect me to give you7 overtime because your moving like a slug.

What I really have a problem with is the outwardly hostile vegetarians. If I walk down the street and someone hands me a flyer, it annoys me. If they start preaching like some religious wackjob it really pisses me off. If you want me to give you quiet tolerance of your views, shut the fuck up and dont be a idiot. I wont bother you if you dont bother me.

[Arbitres]

Arbitres, you're assuming there is an element of hostility

Sorry if I sounded like I thought there is hostility. I meant to sound like 'The answer is simple'. I wanted to imply nome of you people are wrong.

It's all choice base, as I've been trying to say. Guess I failed... again. Sorry Chain, I wasn't trying to seem hsotile or trying to imply there was hostility about.


Uhhh.. Gomen?

[ChainLegacy]

Hey there, don't be so down on yourself. I probably just misinterpreted your message. And yes I agree there is no true correct answer but we can still discuss the details .

[Etherdrone]

Personally, I don't think too much about the fact. I never really did.

But even so, animals eat animals in the nature. It's the food chain - it's how the world works. Bunnies get eaten by wolves, that get eaten by bigger, stronger animals at any given opportunity. Humans also are part of the nature, even if a lot of people disagree.

I don't eat meat for fun. I eat meat because I'm hungry, and I need the protein it gives me. Killing for survival is one thing, killing for amusement is different altogether, and should be punisheable as a crime.

Now about breeding animals for them to provide us with meat.

It's human intellect? If tigers had thought process as insane as ours, they would probably breed cows, humans and whatnot to eat them as well. It's a lot easier than to go in the wilds hunting for food.

Animal cruelty... Now that's a more hardcore point. Injecting hormones in pigs, cows and other animals for them to grow faster and provide us with meat faster might sound cruel, and people might find that abolishing. But then again, most people that do it are either too hungry or just want money, but then again. I'm not really expressing my thoughts over money.

I want food. I need it to survive.

We eat. If we lived in the nature as well, we'd be eaten. That's how things work.

I could become a vegetarian. Well, that's my choice, isn't it? I don't want to eat meat,so I eat vegetables instead. It's not a bad thing, in fact, I respect that deeply. Personally, I can't go on if I stop eating meat. So I find people that go on with just vegetables amazing.

I never really thought too much about eating meat. It's an omnivoire, aren't I? I eat everything.

What doesn't kill me, makes me fatter. Grahahah!

[Emerald Emblem]

Originally Posted by Etherdrone

Personally, I don't think too much about the fact. I never really did.

But even so, animals eat animals in the nature. It's the food chain - it's how the world works. Bunnies get eaten by wolves, that get eaten by bigger, stronger animals at any given opportunity. Humans also are part of the nature, even if a lot of people disagree.

I don't eat meat for fun. I eat meat because I'm hungry, and I need the protein it gives me. Killing for survival is one thing, killing for amusement is different altogether, and should be punisheable as a crime.

Now about breeding animals for them to provide us with meat.

It's human intellect? If tigers had thought process as insane as ours, they would probably breed cows, humans and whatnot to eat them as well. It's a lot easier than to go in the wilds hunting for food.

Animal cruelty... Now that's a more hardcore point. Injecting hormones in pigs, cows and other animals for them to grow faster and provide us with meat faster might sound cruel, and people might find that abolishing. But then again, most people that do it are either too hungry or just want money, but then again. I'm not really expressing my thoughts over money.

I want food. I need it to survive.

We eat. If we lived in the nature as well, we'd be eaten. That's how things work.

I could become a vegetarian. Well, that's my choice, isn't it? I don't want to eat meat,so I eat vegetables instead. It's not a bad thing, in fact, I respect that deeply. Personally, I can't go on if I stop eating meat. So I find people that go on with just vegetables amazing.

I never really thought too much about eating meat. It's an omnivoire, aren't I? I eat everything.

What doesn't kill me, makes me fatter. Grahahah!

It's a well thought out post, kudos to you.

I couldn't just eat veg, I'm limited on the veg I like. I'll eat meat however, because it fills me up and tastes good. I don't see any other reason to justify that fact, my parents buy free range meats, so I at least know it lived a good life before I eat it.

[Ballad]

I eat meat. I have a couple vegetarian friends. I think it's kinda silly to be vegetarian, but I respect other people's decisions.

[MikaMiaka]

I love cow. nomnomomnom.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Nogitsune, my main point is that even the animals with which we share an evolutionary history are capable of experiencing vastly different realities, no doubt some of them are probably not even aware of their existence beyond their own instincts. Given this information, I personally feel that we might be too quick to assume plants aren't experiencing pain or suffering. I feel our understanding of consciousness, sentience, and awareness is at the present moment too narrow to conclude this.

I agree that we can't be absolutely sure that plants do not experience suffering - however, it is a reasonable assumption considering the information that we do have.

Plants, as a species, would not gain anything from being able to experience suffering - a plant able to feel pain would have no evolutionary advantage, and if nothing unexpected happened, the ability would never develop, if it would be passed down at all. Most likely for precisely this reason, plants do not possess anything we are able to recognize as the equivalent of a (central) nervous system; so while there is a chance that we are overlooking something, we are currently unable to comprehend how a plant could ever be capable of feeling pain.

But let's say plants do possess the same capacity for experiencing suffering as a mammal - let's say they can feel pain, get scared, maybe even be sad when you harm their neighbours. How would this make factory farming any better? It kills significant amounts of plants that would otherwise not have to die, and the animals are not only killed, but tortured their whole life.

Of course, we could go the other way and claim that animals do not have feelings. They do not feel pain, they do not suffer, they do not love, they simply exist, much like a rock that can move around and die. Descartes thought this way - he was a philosopher who believed animals were basically robots, and it's probably thanks to him that vivisection became quite popular back then.

Non-humans can not tell us how they feel, so even if they behave like they are in pain, we can never be sure of that - for our moral considerations, we therefore assume that they can not suffer. Our problem is now this: what is the morally relevant factor that allows us to do so? Is it intelligence? Language? Genes? Only the last one would not necessarily compel us to include certain groups of humans into the category of "living beings unable to suffer".

However, now we have to find arguments for why certain genes are morally relevant while others are not, and how genes are more morally relevant than, say, gender. If I found out tomorrow that I was never actually human but the result of some strange experiment, would harming me be any more acceptable than it would be if I woke up one day and discovered I was really a man?

It's all about finding morally relevant differences, and that's a lot harder than most people give it credit for.

[Sparvid]

I just finished a ham & meat sauce pizza.

[Urzu 7]

The thread "Should we feel guilty about eating meat" shouldn't have been merged with this one. That thread would have stood on its own, now it'll just fade away into this thread. Ah well.

To go with the topic that is dominant, I eat meat. I eat a bunch of the most commercialized stuff, too. I really would like to eat more free range meat and organic meat (and dairy). It costs more money for those things. I can buy them sometimes, but with the amount of money I make these days, it is just much smarter to buy the more affordable foods. I like to buy organic foods (plant based), too, but can only do it sometimes.

[EmoPanda]

I eat meat, and i don't have any problems with people who's vegitarian.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

"There are feminists who think men are evil, so all feminists must be stupid."

.

feminists who think men are evil, ARE stupid XD and so do men who think women are evil. now if they think lots of humans are evil then their smart.

people who think humans eating meat is cruel should go ask a lion to stop eating meat, and while their at it, try convince the lion he/she doesnt want to eat you.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

feminists who think men are evil, ARE stupid XD and so do men who think women are evil. now if they think lots of humans are evil then their smart.

people who think humans eating meat is cruel should go ask a lion to stop eating meat, and while their at it, try convince the lion he/she doesnt want to eat you.

I think that when people have the choice to be a vegetarian and do, that is good. It is also hard, I think. Eating meat is enjoyable. It is for most people. And like I said, the absolute best way to get the protein you need.

While I think it is nice when someone in a developed country becomes a vegetarian, that is kind of a luxury to have. A lot of people in a lot of under developed countries need to eat meat for subsistence, and usually eat meat from local markets and small groups of live stock, and I think all of that is a-okay.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

feminists who think men are evil, ARE stupid XD and so do men who think women are evil. now if they think lots of humans are evil then their smart.

Hum. I think you missed my point.

people who think humans eating meat is cruel should go ask a lion to stop eating meat, and while their at it, try convince the lion he/she doesnt want to eat you.

Lions are not moral agents. Lions usually do not eat factory farmed meat. Lions can not survive without eating meat.

Try telling a lion killing humans simply because they poked it is bad. Just because it won't listen doesn't mean we should kill anyone who pokes us. And in case you'd counter this with, "That's why animals have no rights - because they don't respect ours!", keep in mind that there are also humans genuinely unable to comprehend the concept of morality.