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Old 2013-01-21, 14:45   Link #11701
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
But I think Kumagawa just abstained for his own reasons, and Suki appearing was just normal(hiring professional musicians).
Mainly, I don't think Devil Style negates a coincidence from ever happening, just dosen't make them nescessary and certain to happen.
The fact that Saki is now a profession musician is itself the incredible coincidence. Do you not realize that? There was absolutely no reason that any one of the three had to be someone we already knew who had an important history with one of the main characters.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:13   Link #11702
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The fact that Saki is now a profession musician is itself the incredible coincidence. Do you not realize that? There was absolutely no reason that any one of the three had to be someone we already knew who had an important history with one of the main characters.
I really don't see the problem here? I know there was no reason for it other than that they just happened to be hired by the school.

That's basically what I'm saying.

The event should've been complicated, but according to Ajimu, it didn't have to, nescessarily, because fate couldn't influence a complication anymore, so stuff just happened as it would in reality.
Suki just happened to be a musician, and Kumagawa just happened to skip school that day or any other reason. No fate, just pure random.

That's Devil Style's influence over the influence of fate(what a strange thought), just like two opposite forces clashing and negating one another.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:22   Link #11703
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Which is what I find funny. Nisio tackles shounen genre but cannot tackle the real big ones. Whats the point of mentioning some shounen titles number of which come totally second-assed and poor in comparison when you cannot tackle the most successful and influential manga of shounen history?

Its like talking about pebbles on the road without actually talking about the road.
lol

You think Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are the most successful and influential in shounen history? How cute.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:31   Link #11704
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
lol

You think Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are the most successful and influential in shounen history? How cute.
It's pretty much One Piece and Dragonball, One piece has sold the most hell it breaks single month volume sales records on a has a monthly basis Most probably by the time it finishes it'll outstrip the sales of any other manga by an extremely large amount, Dragonball is is around the same due to worldwide popularity as well as the high volume sales . Naruto's big but not really Dragonball stand out big. Bleach not quite the same tier.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:40   Link #11705
Shadow5YA
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I'll give you One Piece, but Naruto, or anything else in WSJ right now? Someone is clearly biased if they think JoJo is "second-assed and poor by comparison".
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:41   Link #11706
Guernsey
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And they there are the cult classics such as Jojo, Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya and Prince of tennis. They may not have had high sales (and Jojo became a seinen) but they influence manga in ways that is indescribable. Fist of The North Star even started the shonen battle genre while Jojo and Dragonball codified what the genre was going to be like.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:42   Link #11707
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
What do you folks think of this?
It remains my favorite page in the entire manga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Which is what I find funny. Nisio tackles shounen genre but cannot tackle the real big ones. Whats the point of mentioning some shounen titles number of which come totally second-assed and poor in comparison when you cannot tackle the most successful and influential manga of shounen history?
He mentions Dragonball which is the whole reason manga like Bleach and Naruto even exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
it doesn't have like that but a story can hit hardest when interwoven with a single consistent poignant theme. And I think Medaka box lacks that.
It HAD that, but everything after 140 kind of dropped the ball in that regard.
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:51   Link #11708
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I really don't see the problem here? I know there was no reason for it other than that they just happened to be hired by the school.

That's basically what I'm saying.

The event should've been complicated, but according to Ajimu, it didn't have to, nescessarily, because fate couldn't influence a complication anymore, so stuff just happened as it would in reality.
Suki just happened to be a musician, and Kumagawa just happened to skip school that day or any other reason. No fate, just pure random.

That's Devil Style's influence over the influence of fate(what a strange thought), just like two opposite forces clashing and negating one another.
Yes, that's why I was using it as an example of the kind of complication that was avoided by Devil Style. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?
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Old 2013-01-21, 15:57   Link #11709
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It remains my favorite page in the entire manga.
Heh. My favorite page comes after that one, coincidentally enough.

Though, I really can't look at them separated, they really are a gem of a pair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It HAD that, but everything after 140 kind of dropped the ball in that regard.
I'd kinda have to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
Yes, that's why I was using it as an example of the kind of complication that was avoided by Devil Style. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?
Probably, talking with Sol Falling usually leaves me confused as to who is saying what, likely because that guy says everything that there is to say, but I digress, I don't want to be rude.
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Old 2013-01-21, 18:35   Link #11710
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Heh. My favorite page comes after that one, coincidentally enough.

Though, I really can't look at them separated, they really are a gem of a pair.
I put the best pages from that particular chapter together.
Images
WARNING: HUGE
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-01-21, 19:51   Link #11711
ccie20012
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One Piece, Dragonball, Bleach, Naruto ... etc OMG
I am speechless. How does this related to Nisio and my favorite manga?
Medaka Box this is a parody.
It can be black humor or romcom, but it's not pure/classic/stupid shounen manga.
Sorry
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Old 2013-01-21, 21:21   Link #11712
Guernsey
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Absurdist Reasoning?
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Old 2013-01-22, 02:14   Link #11713
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
lol

You think Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are the most successful and influential in shounen history? How cute.
LOL. Check the sale numbers. Like it or not but OP is the best selling manga of all times shounen or otherwise. Even bleach or Naruto combined cannot hope to scratch the numbers of OP and both bleach and naruto are quite sucessful manga's but OP is a different beast all together.

You are free to think otherwise but simple facts of figures tells otherwise. Deny it but you are just coming off as a complete ignorant fool.
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Old 2013-01-22, 02:17   Link #11714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
One Piece, Dragonball, Bleach, Naruto ... etc OMG
I am speechless. How does this related to Nisio and my favorite manga?
Medaka Box this is a parody.
Well guys started talking about deconstruction of shounen genre but I dont see that such deconstruction is worth of shit if it doesnt tackle the main manga of the contemporary shounen era that is responsible for plenty of tropes but instead aims at just some byproductsor influential manga's of the past. Past is past they did their own shaping, but contemporary shounen is reshaping and its the one we should talk and most responsible of shaping that is not even touched upon.

And the reason why Nishio doesnt tackle upon that is because he simply cannot or else he would have to deconstruct his own deconstruction.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2013-01-22 at 02:39.
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Old 2013-01-22, 02:38   Link #11715
Tyabann
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I also made this because why not?
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Poor guy never gets a break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
LOL. Check the sale numbers. Like it or not but OP is the best selling manga of all times shounen or otherwise.
None of the big three are that influential though, at least not on the level of some of the 80s and 90s classics that Nisio is listing in the pages I linked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Past is past they did theirt own shaping, but contemporary shounen is reshaping and its the one we should talk and most responsible of shaping that is not even touched upon.
Furthermore, you realize that Bleach and Naruto are themselves heavily inspired by FotNS, Dragonball, etc, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And the reason why Nishio doesnt tackle upon that is because he simply cannot or else he would have to deconstruct his own deconstruction.
Also, this is why the word "deconstruction" is very stupid.
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Old 2013-01-22, 03:00   Link #11716
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
None of the big three are that influential though, at least not on the level of some of the 80s and 90s classics that Nisio is listing in the pages I linked.
But none were that successful either. Even now the most new players coming in the manga are usually influenced by the successful manga nowadays more so than the past ones.

Past ones influenced the big three (Naruto and Bleach in particular) but for me big three is actually big one and two mediocres attached.

OP is quite influential and the more time will pass the more influential it will be.

The problem is that OP doesnt follow shounen tropes the way Bleach or Naruto does. But at the same time its way too big of a player to ignore.

So what now? Call One Piece not a shounen? If not then Nishio's 'deconstruction' is pointless as it doesnt include the biggest fish in contemporary manga world which in its own right influences the newer manga's thus reshaping the contemporary shounen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, this is why the word "deconstruction" is very stupid.
Now that I can agree about. But the word 'deconstruction' makes Nishio's manga sound deeper than it actually is.
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Old 2013-01-22, 03:33   Link #11717
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But none were that successful either. Even now the most new players coming in the manga are usually influenced by the successful manga nowadays more so than the past ones.

Past ones influenced the big three (Naruto and Bleach in particular) but for me big three is actually big one and two mediocres attached.

OP is quite influential and the more time will pass the more influential it will be.

The problem is that OP doesnt follow shounen tropes the way Bleach or Naruto does. But at the same time its way too big of a player to ignore.

So what now? Call One Piece not a shounen? If not then Nishio's 'deconstruction' is pointless as it doesnt include the biggest fish in contemporary manga world which in its own right influences the newer manga's thus reshaping the contemporary shounen.
What exactly are you claiming exempts One Piece from Medaka Box's deconstruction? While I will probably never read One Piece, at a glance it seems very much likely that it would follow Shounen Jump's generic mantra of "Friendship, Effort, and Victory". For a better example of a successful shounen which Medaka Box's criticism would not apply to, think Death Note.

You talk about Luffy being "defeated" before but that alone doesn't differentiate him from the rest of shounen protagonists. Take a look over the characters in that page Kaisos posted, or hell even refer to Medaka herself. The simple way that every shounen manga treats "defeat" is just "failure makes you stronger", artificially generating a bit of temporary tension before the main character comes back for an "epic" win. Are you honestly gonna tell me One Piece is different?

A shounen main character does not have to win all the time, but they do win in the end, when it really matters. That is the thing which differentiates idealistic shounen series from reality (not that overly cynical grimdark series are any better). From all I can tell, One Piece is 100% generic shounen (not that I hate shounen or anything). Greatest-selling or not, I will find it pretty funny if you seriously believe otherwise.
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Old 2013-01-22, 06:51   Link #11718
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
A shounen main character does not have to win all the time, but they do win in the end, when it really matters.
And thats what did not happen in OP. Because battle for someone who is close to you life is what I call a battle when it really damn matters and luffy lost it.

Usually such big events only happen in shounen's beginning as a stimulation for MC to train get batter and come back kicking ass not in the middle of the story with all the training and powerups with all the super determination to save the life of your only family member and failing to do so.
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Old 2013-01-22, 07:15   Link #11719
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And thats what did not happen in OP. Because battle for someone who is close to you life is what I call a battle when it really damn matters and luffy lost it.

Usually such big events only happen in shounen's beginning as a stimulation for MC to train get batter and come back kicking ass not in the middle of the story with all the training and powerups with all the super determination to save the life of your only family member and failing to do so.
To be fair, Luffy did kind of win. He managed to get the seastone cuffs of Ace and was in the process of getting away. If Ace didn't fall for Akainu's taunts, he would have made it, probably.
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Old 2013-01-22, 07:20   Link #11720
Darknemo2000
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To be fair, Luffy did kind of win. He managed to get the seastone cuffs of Ace and was in the process of getting away. If Ace didn't fall for Akainu's taunts, he would have made it, probably.
He got that far though not because of his own strength or determination but because all the big ones were occupied within themselves, when Luffy had to face them he looked weak. If not Whitebeards help Luffy would have been dead together with Ace. Luffy's determination, power-ups, experience and all that usual shounen boosts were quite useless.
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