Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Because Clannad isn't some super deep work of art or genius mode of storytelling. It's still a simple story of simple means involving simple people in a not so simple premise, delivered in an old tried and tested method of storytelling.

It's still supposed to teach a lesson of family though, one that I am thankful that many others have managed to see.

Well then I fail to see the lesson in the ending. What's the lesson now, that if you suffer enough good things will eventually happen like your dead wife coming back to life and you getting to live happily ever after.

Like I said, I preferred it when the theme came across more realistically as a matter of Tomoya accepting his responsibility as a father. That's a realistic lesson that anyone can take home. Instead though I guess Maeda thought it would be better to pull out one more tearjerker with Ushio developing Nagisa's sickness, promptly dying and then everything getting put back to a happier time for this whole fairy tale notion of the night always being darkest before the dawn.

I'm sorry, but real family life does not work the way it does in KEY stories and life isn't always quite so kind or quite so harsh as Maeda's emotional rollercoasters. If I'm going to take home a lesson from an anime such as this I'm going to at least have to ask that it be grounded in some realism and actually be applicable to my own reality based life. Suffering does not necessarily predate reward, it's a nice idealistic sentiment, it really is and I wish life were more like it (at best I suppose I can label Clannad an escapist tale) but a sentiment it remains, and one that is only guaranteed to pay off in fantasy stories like Clannad. I'm more then happy to leave such notions where they they lie.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And it's absolutely 100% pure feel good fantasy and little else. I can accept that though, I just refuse to accept that Clannad was some ultra deep and resonating work of art that is meant to teach me some sort of significant lesson about family.

Well, what were you expecting?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

People just pick and choose based on what they've decided to like ahead of time whether a plot development is acceptable or if it's going to get ridiculed.

And so you begin to understand why some series are more popular than others.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

When you think with your head instead of your heart

And that's the problem, isn't it.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I'm sorry, but real family life does not work the way it does in KEY stories and life isn't always quite so kind or quite so harsh as Maeda's emotional rollercoasters.

EXACTLY. THIS IS A STORY. NOT REAL LIFE.

Nor is it meant to be. It's a happy, idealistic tale about the importance of family.

[Tempester]

The real problem here is not the fantasy elements themselves but the impression they leave.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann was far from realistic, with mountain-sized robots dishing it out against each other and heroic characters fighting against infinite odds. But despite all that, the show had one element of realism: the dead don't come back to life, except for one character but he wasn't really the same after being "revived" as a bioelectronic head in a liquid tank. You must accept their passing and move on. I thought that that was really motivational and inspiring and it improved my impression of the show.

Clannad was mostly much more realistic than Gurren Lagann, but its final use of fantasy, the "time warp" and light orbs, removed a lot of sympathy one has for the characters, just as Kaioshin-sama said.

You can tell a ridiculous fantasy story but be able to connect with the characters and you can also tell a story grounded in realism but with distant characters.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Given the course I'm taking, I have to say, I don't agree. I'm taking up a Master's degree in Creative Writing, but I don't need the actual degree to see that the conclusion... Isn't great.

When you think with your head instead of your heart, then please tell me how the message of Family not have been given more credence by the fact that an emotionally broken man finally found the strength to reach out to a daughter he never knew, and make up for the years that he was never there for her? The message is not diluted by the fact that Tomoya would pretty much have to race Ushio on his own, in fact it strengthens the theme of Family, in that no matter how screwed up your life has been, a person's family will always, ALWAYS be there for them.

Also, that life isn't fair.

But again, we're talking about something that came from Jun Maeda's pen.

While I was trying to finish my minor in Philosophy, one of my professors said that the biggest mistake any reader can do for any text is to read it from a purely rational or heartfelt manner, whther it is a work of science or a work of art. As such I approach most of anything with this duality, to see it from both the mind's eye and the heart's eye, and I'll reply using both.

First of all, You're trying to bring together the theme from episode 18 and episode 22 and package it into a beliefe that it must exist as one encompassing and unifying theme. They exist as 2 themes of the show contributing to bring the major theme of the show unto fruition. They are NOT themselves THE themes of the show, only but stepping stones towards the theme, but important nonetheless. They are each a minor fraction of the family theme, each one bringing out a lesson for Tomoya to learn, and at the end synthesizing it into what he must realize.

1. Episode 18 is about parental duty. To try and seek out the lost time between them to know that the bond is ALWAYS there even with the 5 year gap, that the bond can be rekindled and strengthened despite the absence if only one is willing to try and bridge it again. The foundations have always been there, it was up to Tomoya to build the bridge.

2. Episode 22 was about the struggle to find even the smallest miracle in the midst of saddness. Tomoya essentially invested his hope for happiness after the Illusionary Girl revealed the only way to happiness was the light orbs, and from here Tomoya just had to believe that a miracle was possible. And a miracle did happen. It focuses more on a miracle occurring for the sake of their joy.

And yet these 2 are not the THE core themes of story. They only reveal smaller aspects of the core theme. Episode 18 reveals that family entails responsibility, that no family's bond's can be broken by time and tragedy as long as one wishes to cross the bridge. Episode 22 reveals that family entails HOPE, hope for a shared happiness of each family member, even if it requires believing in miracles.

--------

I'm gonna go edit my first post in this thread a little. Some things I probably should have said.

[Ithekro]

I don't watch anime for realistic ending...or television and movies for that matter. If I wanted an realistic ending I'd watch the news or go outside.

I've viewed our entertainment as a way to forget (if only for a little while) the harshness of reality. Though sometimes reality is not as harsh as some people would have you believe, I'd rather not see a movie or show that ends on a depressing note intentionally. This is why I don't like watching Greece Tragidies off the BBC or PBS anymore. I have no reason to remind myself of the evils and harshness that reality can bring about without balance.

The leason that life is hard, and sucks is not a leason I would choose to remind myself of repeatedly. Too many shows go for gritty realism these days and I think you can see it effecting the population. Many people are depressed and unmotivated. The amount of questioning one's moral standards and even nationalistic ideals has almost gotten to the point of no one liking or caring about anything anymore. So I choose to like the idea of a happy ending. So in that respect, Clannad works just fine.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Nor is it meant to be. It's a happy, idealistic tale about the importance of family.

Idealistic? I can agree on that. Happy? Not by a long short dear sir.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well, what were you expecting?



And so you begin to understand why some series are more popular than others.



And that's the problem, isn't it.



EXACTLY. THIS IS A STORY. NOT REAL LIFE.

Nor is it meant to be. It's a happy, idealistic tale about the importance of family.

Don't look at me like I don't know all of this, I'm just replying to MeoTwister5's bit about Clannad supposedly trying to teach a lesson. If one is to try and work at it from that angle then you have to think with your head instead of your heart, and that's where one runs into problems. Also if you're going to take a lesson away then it has to be applicable to real life. That's another area where one runs into problems with Clannad's family theme.

Right now you and MeoTwister5 are like the devil and angel on my shoulder with one trying to tell me to look at it as a tale about family with applicable lessons to be learned and the other telling me to look at it as pure fantasy and idealism, but in the end I think the choice has always been obvious thanks to me being left no other option.

Anyway, some series are more popular then others due to community bias, which really speaks for the times, but I'd rather not get into that right now.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go watch some episodes of Leave it To Beaver and Father Knows Best. (this is a joke btw)

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

And yet these 2 are not the THE core themes of story. They only reveal smaller aspects of the core theme. Episode 18 reveals that family entails responsibility, that no family's bond's can be broken by time and tragedy as long as one wishes to cross the bridge. Episode 22 reveals that family entails HOPE, hope for a shared happiness of each family member, even if it requires believing in miracles.

Boom! Right there, that's the catch.

[hbk19]

Hello, I recently got into Clannad after The Anime Network put the show on its VOD service. I was hooked, I got the first dvd set, but I couldn't stop watching. I watch until, well this episode.

This is where I actually get on topic and on and about ep 22.

I feel like my emotions have been violated QQ

Like some of you jokingly commented on being morbid I too felt that all that struggle with Ushio was just a waste.

Specially since some things that happened in the timeline Nagisa dies do not happen when Okazaki gets a do over, like coming to terms with his father.

I literally shat bricks, pardon for the language but that is how I felt through the entire series. Specially towards AS. Then... this do over.. well thats nice but was it really neccessary? Having Ushio not die would have been good enough, I know this is a bit too much but having Okazaki reconstruct his life with lets say Kyo*she was the older twin right? Would have made more sense.

But then again I'm sorry but I too as I think about this I realize this isn't Rumbling hearts where the whole story was ****ing brutal. I get this is obviously a milder story but having Ushio live on and Tomoya reconstruct his life would have been a lot better than having an "easy button"

Well those are my feelings abou tthe series and the ending.
thank you for reading.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

While I was trying to finish my minor in Philosophy, one of my professors said that the biggest mistake any reader can do for any text is to read it from a purely rational or heartfelt manner, whther it is a work of science or a work of art. As such I approach most of anything with this duality, to see it from both the mind's eye and the heart's eye, and I'll reply using both.

I am no Formalist, nor do I prescribe to the Neo-Criticism (which I might add has been long considered a joke by many of my professors, including Dr. Isagani Cruz, premiere Literary Critic of our country), however the overarching theme of Family and the World of Illusion aspect do not segue very well. At best, the World of Illusion can be seen as a quaint metaphor and allusion to the experiences of the main cast in the 'real world', but at its worst (and I'm sure the people who haven't caught the subtle nuances will see it as such) it's a convenient contrivance that the author can use to reset events when they've proved a point.

I never came into CLANNAD expecting a realistic story. But frankly, the resolution could have been done better.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Idealistic? I can agree on that. Happy? Not by a long short dear sir.

Ultimately happy. Most of the routes and After Story have a happy ending.

Perhaps "positive" was the word I was looking for.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The leason that life is hard, and sucks is not a leason I would choose to remind myself of repeatedly. Too many shows go for gritty realism these days and I think you can see it effecting the population. Many people are depressed and unmotivated. The amount of questioning one's moral standards and even nationalistic ideals has almost gotten to the point of no one liking or caring about anything anymore. So I choose to like the idea of a happy ending. So in that respect, Clannad works just fine.

Thank you. Thank you for expressing a sentiment I've held for quite a while now.


Though I personally don't mind more tragic/bittersweet endings, as they can be quite powerful. Normally I'd give an example here, but no one cares about that.

[MeoTwister5]

People are focusing SO MUCH on Nagisa coming back alive. THAT IS NOT THE POINT DAMMIT.

People are again assuming that the thematic point of the series reached its end in epsiode 18. Episode 22 only wished to try and flesh out some thematic concerns by trying to tell the readers that miracles do indeed happen, mayhaps even the most ridiculous ones, because they can indeed happen.

And this is where I find the paradox of the opposing argument almost perplexing. You bind excessively on realism when the story itself almost blatantly tells you that it is not. You then criticize it for doing an unnatural ending when it points beyond just that. The story is damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is not the fault of the story, it falls to human perception.

Boom! Right there, that's the catch.

Yeah, that in itself is the problem here. If people are too much of a realist to accept the possiblity of a miracle ever occurring in real life, then the ending is pointless.

If you are like me however, who believes that hope is still a powerful tool of the human soul capable of extracting miracles, then this is a reinforcement of that belief.

@Myssa

The Illusionary World isn't really supposed to be a metaphor of the real world, it's essentially a parallelism of Tomoya's experiences and only Tomoya's experiences.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

People are focusing SO MUCH on Nagisa coming back alive. THAT IS NOT THE POINT DAMMIT.

I'm frankly surprised the shitstorm hasn't been bigger.

If this wasn't Clannad, I'd be complaining too.

But this is a Key game, which works on magic realism, and dead people do not stay dead.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Yeah, that in itself is the problem here. If people are too much of a realist to accept the possiblity of a miracle ever occurring in real life, then the ending is pointless.

But... miracles DON'T happen in real life. Death is a permanent end to existence.

Bad things happen to good people, all the time. A life sucks, suck it up kind of thing.

This is why Clannad ISN'T real life.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

People are focusing SO MUCH on Nagisa coming back alive. THAT IS NOT THE POINT DAMMIT.

People are again assuming that the thematic point of the series reached its end in epsiode 18. Episode 22 only wished to try and flesh out some thematic concerns by trying to tell the readers that miracles do indeed happen, mayhaps even the most ridiculous ones, because they can indeed happen.

And this is where I find the paradox of the opposing argument almost perplexing. You bind excessively on realism when the story itself almost blatantly tells you that it is not. You then criticize it for doing an unnatural ending when it points beyond just that. The story is damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is not the fault of the story, it falls to human perception.



Yeah, that in itself is the problem here. If people are too much of a realist to accept the possiblity of a miracle ever occurring in real life, then the ending is pointless.

If you are like me however, who believes that hope is still a powerful tool of the human soul capable of extracting miracles, then this is a reinforcement of that existence.

Miracles are something like a family member escaping a horrible accident or illness that probably should have killed them if everything didn't fall into place perfectly, fantasy is dead people coming back to life. I would have been perfectly fine with something like Ushio falling into a coma and then when all seemed lost a miracle happened and she woke up, but Nagisa who has been dead for several years now......it's not so much that I have a problem with the story asking one to believe in miracles as I do with how it was portrayed.

[Ithekro]

Judging from the montage of everyone, the image of Tomoya and his father in the field right after they (Nagisa, Ushio, and Tomoya) visit Tomoya's grandmother, would suggest to me that he did come to terms with his father at some point in those five years. Perhaps not entirely for the same reason, but perhaps it was...he did clearly have at least some memory of previous events. But even then just being a father and visiting his grandmother may have been enough for Tomoya to let go of his hard feeling for his father. Considering that was part of Sanae's plan some episodes ago...I wouldn't put it past her and/or Nagisa to come up with a similar plan the second time around.

[MeoTwister5]

Well you can appreciate the ending 2 ways: Either see it as a puely idealstic tale of death and love, or see it as a message of idealism potentially existing in our sad and morbidly real world.

I happen to subscribe to the latter.

[hbk19]

My apologies if someone caught my post thinking of it as a rant. So sorry, I absolutely love this series, and although it would sound a bit contradictory I did not care whether the show is realistic or not. If I recall correctly Akio-san went through a similar event with Nagisa when she was sick.

I have not played the visual novel and with that I will probably be poked fun at but here are some things that are not neccessarily realistic but make sense:

1) Okazaki's wife is dead
2) Friend who had a crush on Okazaki is back in his life, as the teacher of Ushio.
3) Pretty darn sure she still secretly loves him
4) Ushio would not want to replace her mom, but rather have his father be happy by getting married once more, and who better than her teacher.

I know Kyo became a teacher, but was it really necessary to bring her back in such role if she was not going to do anything relevant to the current story?

I don't recall her seen at all after everything went back to normal just like Tomoya's father *besides the epilogue. All that gone to waste.

I am happy with the ending, although I didn't quite get the point of Fuko finding Ushio sleeping I enjoyed the episode.

EDIT: Yes I sort of figured showing the grandmother again would show like it did happen but it just seemed to me that his father played such a huge indirect role in the story and the in the life of Tomoya I kind of wanted to it again.. since well the story got a do over lol

[Zenemis]

The characters aren't realistic you say? They were never meant to be.

Fuuko is a ghost.
Tomoyo is impossibly strong.
Nagisa is impossibly nice.

CLANNAD had characters representing themes, not people.

I would have a problem with it, if they threw in the light-orbs at the last second, but they were evident throughout the entirety of both seasons.

Tomoya brought people happiness, and he was rewarded for it.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Well you can appreciate the ending 2 ways: Either see it as a puely idealstic tale of death and love, or see it as a message of idealism potentially existing in our sad and morbidly real world.

I happen to subscribe to the latter.

I subscribe to neither.

[Silverwyrm]

This ending had the same effect to me as Kanon...it really cheapened the entire show for me. Now I'm not someone who likes sad endings, I prefer happy but I don't like how it was done in both shows. It makes a lot of the previous suffering and lessons feel rather pointless to me, meaningless even. I would have loved to see a good happy ending but the way it was done just left me scratching my head again. I'm not even necessarily looking for "realism" but a miracle might have a different form than "everything that went wrong is right. the end."

Also after seeing the exact same thing in Kanon (albeit it seemed truly random there) it really didn't feel original. Personally, I while I was glad to see a happy ending I can't help but feel let down by it at the same time.

[Zenemis]

Honestly, I agree. But that problem existed in the source material as well, and I felt the same thing then.