(L) Tytania

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

As a comparsion, take my game of Mother 3 the other day. I was fighting a boss, and lacked the foresight to bring enough healing items to the battle. In the end it was down to the wire and I had one more hit lift before I died. I chose to use Flint's special attack "Power Smash" that has a high probability of missing, but if it hits it counts as a "Smash" attack which carries the traits of double damage and piercing and would win me the battle. I fought a crappy ill prepared battle, but I won because the attack just happened to hit and KO the enemy on my last turn and the enemy just happened to use the attack that wouldn't kill me instantly on his turn which came first. I very easily could have missed or the enemy could have steamrolled me had the A.I played the cheap way, and even then I was lucky that it's final attack didn't cause my HP to roll over the 0 point at the end.

Except your comparison does not work here because I don't see Fan's plan as a last ditch effort at all. In fact he came up with a plan to win even though he had such a small fleet. First he attacks and the Tytania fleet overpowers his small fleet which is the expected result or the image that Fan wants Ariabart to see.

When Fan's fleet retreats Ariabart surrounds them (as Fan said he never expected them to let him get away). This was the only gamble I saw that Fan made that he can't be 100% sure that Ariabart will surround them and be in firing range of the cannons.

As for the cannons they were dangerous but then Fan had a plan for retreat and found a way to use them safely (as he said in the beginning of the episode he had no intention of dying)

So I don't see where you are getting this last ditch effort when it seems pretty clear that Fan planned this all out to begin with.

Fan had limited resources but he used the resources he did have to his advantage. This is a skill not just luck. And even the dukes of Tytania recognize that he has skill. Although yes this same tactic is not going to work again and I can see Fan's laid back attitude possibly working against him in the future.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

How can it be a new way if it was never supposed to have been used before, and how is using an overpowered weapon to blow up your enemy any sort of new way to use it. It wasn't supposed to work, but it did. I say that's luck with a bit of risk that paid off. That's why I say that tech won the battle in the end, not him. Everything rested on whether the cannons would work or not. If anything he did won the day it was that he took a gamble, a risky behaviour, and that is more of a trait then a skill.

The Cannons work but they BLOW up after one shot thus why nobody use them. Nobody besides Fan had thougth of using the cannons the way he did, thus why it took the enemy by surprise. IT was not luck, it was a well planned strategy. they had to wait till the fleet was close enough to use the cannons. they didn't destroy the Tytania Fleet with the Beam capability of the cannons (that is what the technology was made for), they destroyed the fleet using the cannon's DEFECT, which is a SUPER MASSIVE explosion. That is why they had to wait till they were close enough. They didn't use the EXISTING technology of the cannons, so saying that Fan used an existing technology to win is a wrong statement.

[ordnance11]

I'm seeing parallels between Fan and Justy Ueki Tylor. But having seen Legend of Galactic Heroes, and Crest of the Stars series, I have a complaint:

Why is it the democratic leaders are portrayed as craven politicians out to sell their own skins at the first sign of trouble and it's the martial nobility that is seen as noble? And the hero is seen as a goofball? I know Lincolns, Trumans and Roosevelts don't grow on trees, but it'll be refreshing to see a leader who isn't afraid to knuckle under.

[lubczyk]

So what fansub group are you guys watching?

DEER?
AERO?
ANBU?

I'm using ANBU. The video quality seems to be on par of that of DEER and AERO but the way the fansubbers structure sentences seem to be the easiest to read and comprehend. DEER and AERO feel a little too literal and unpractical.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by golthin

Nobody is saying that Ariabart did anything wrong, it is just the fact that Fan did something that the guy was not expecting. Fan set Aribart up in a trap knowing what he was going to do. Smart commanders always should suspect a trap when fighting forces that are outnumbered, but tytania's arrogance got them. You are not giving credit to fan for coming with the trap and baiting Ariabart into pursuing him. If you had not read the novels, I dare you say that you knew what Fan was doing. I knew that there was going to be some kind of trap but I didn't know what kind.

That's not entirely fair. The problem with sci-fi works, especially the opening chapters, is that you don't quite know what tech they have. We couldn't have known those canons even existed, so how could we guess they were going to be used?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

He took a risk is what he did.

Desperate times. Desperate measures.

Still, it took guts and a bit of cleverness.

That's about it. He got lucky. Luck is not a skill. Ariabart also panicked which was also a chance occurance and that also played a part. Basically everything fell into place exactly the way that Fan needed it to and because of that he was successful. Luck. Plain and simple, though a part of me worries that it won't be portrayed that way in the future and he's going to be some super unbeatable opponent who wins by doing nothing all the time and if so I'm probably going to be a whole lot less impressed.

He baited Ariabart into using the formation that would make him most vulnerable to the trap. Knowing the other guy's character flaws and using them against him is a skill, too. So, for that matter, is knowing what attack will induce which counter-attack.

Note, it didn't take that much skill - everyone knows Tytanias are arrogant, and the formations used were, it seems, all textbook cases. Nobody gushed about how clever or original they were or anything.

Of course he wouldn't announce that he had them because nobody would believe they would work in the first place without seeing it actually happen.

Then why did Fan try it, if it's so unconceivable?

Actually, I don't know what to make of that. Are we supposed to believe he's really clever and apt at thinking outside the box, or that his universe is populated by morons? Those canons weren't unusable at all, anyone ought to have been able to see that. It's not like they'd be the first weapon in the history of mankind where you have to light the fuse and run away. And IIRC, even today, some people have speculated on actual designs where a nuclear explosion is used to power a "laser". The weapon around the nuke is only supposed to last long enough to redirect the energy.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not saying it wasn't calculated rather than an actual act of compassion. But I think it was a white lie. They both knew the fiasco could have been avoided. But Jouslain chose to comfort Ariabart rather than kick him while he was down. Sure, you could say he was looking down on him. But, as things stood, was there any other way to look?

I don't know... I get the feeling that the writers were trying to convey the impression that there really wasn't a way to salvage the battle. Ariabart didn't seem to be quite pathetic enough to pose his question as a rhetorical.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

What's the point of winning a battle if there's no greater cause for doing so. Even Tytania has a cause, which is galactic solidarity, power, and empire building. Fan fights for frivilous reasons. Of course he'd want to win the battle, but how am I supposed to like a character who's only reasons for fighting are fame and fortune.

I'm not sure if there's any need for a character to have some sort of greater cause for what they do, especially at the beginning of the story. For that matter, a desire for fame and glory is every bit as much of a motivator as wanting to do grand things for one's country.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

How can it be a new way if it was never supposed to have been used before, and how is using an overpowered weapon to blow up your enemy any sort of new way to use it. It wasn't supposed to work, but it did. I say that's luck with a bit of risk that paid off. That's why I say that tech won the battle in the end, not him. Everything rested on whether the cannons would work or not. If anything he did won the day it was that he took a gamble, a risky behaviour, and that is more of a trait then a skill.

I'm not sure why you think that there's all that much difference between a risky gamble and skillful tactics. After all, many of history's most famously executed tactics were also risky gambles.

Originally Posted by golthin

The Cannons work but they BLOW up after one shot thus why nobody use them. Nobody besides Fan had thougth of using the cannons the way he did, thus why it took the enemy by surprise. IT was not luck, it was a well planned strategy. they had to wait till the fleet was close enough to use the cannons. they didn't destroy the Tytania Fleet with the Beam capability of the cannons (that is what the technology was made for), they destroyed the fleet using the cannon's DEFECT, which is a SUPER MASSIVE explosion. That is why they had to wait till they were close enough. They didn't use the EXISTING technology of the cannons, so saying that Fan used an existing technology to win is a wrong statement.

I think that Kaioshin Sama is arguing along a similar line that I was: that the battle was decided by a gimmick that relied on an enemy's incompetence rather than by using solid tactics. I don't think that it's a major problem unless the later battles are decided the same way. Given the author's pedigree, it looks like it can go either way.

I'm rather surprised that the nobody had been able to think up of a strategem using such powerful weapons before. A one-use cannon doesn't seem to be a very big drawback - missiles are one-use as well, and there's tons of applications for them. At the very least, it'd be horribly effective in sieges.

Originally Posted by ordnance11

Why is it the democratic leaders are portrayed as craven politicians out to sell their own skins at the first sign of trouble and it's the martial nobility that is seen as noble? And the hero is seen as a goofball? I know Lincolns, Trumans and Roosevelts don't grow on trees, but it'll be refreshing to see a leader who isn't afraid to knuckle under.

That was definitely a problem in Legend of Galactic Heroes, but we'll see if it's also going to be one for Tytania.

[signorRossi]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That was definitely a problem in Legend of Galactic Heroes, but we'll see if it's also going to be one for Tytania.

Was that really a problem? I mean, the democracy of Heinessen was clearly in decline and while it was shown that the Empire on the other side was moving to expand citizen's freedom and rights I think that the makers of LotGH didn't want to discredit democracy and show that benevolent autocracy is better, they actually wanted to show what happens when the citizens of a democracy let loose and put in power people that are not fit for it. Then clearly the war against the empire (which could be seen by the invasion of empire territory) had become more a tool to serve for re-election than a means to keep its own independence for Heinessen.
All in all LotGH was quite a remarkable show that also could be thought-provoking and wasn't only good to kill some time.

SignorRossi.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm rather surprised that the nobody had been able to think up of a strategem using such powerful weapons before. A one-use cannon doesn't seem to be a very big drawback - missiles are one-use as well, and there's tons of applications for them. At the very least, it'd be horribly effective in sieges.


That was definitely a problem in Legend of Galactic Heroes, but we'll see if it's also going to be one for Tytania.

they problem is that the canons were one use. it is that they explode afterwards. And as powerful as they are, their range is limited, unlike a missile.

- Short Range (compare to missile)
- One used (blowup afterward)
- considering the size, probably at least moderately expensive to built.

if Tytania was a bit more conservative in deploying his forces and only sent what he needed to defeat Fans forces he would have won. Instead he sent in everyone for the coup de grace and got de grace himself.

[yang_wen_lee]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

So what fansub group are you guys watching?

DEER?
AERO?
ANBU?

I'm using ANBU. The video quality seems to be on par of that of DEER and AERO but the way the fansubbers structure sentences seem to be the easiest to read and comprehend. DEER and AERO feel a little too literal and unpractical.

I try Aero ( I like it ) & Deer (they cut op & end of the anime , start directly with the show ) sub , not very bad better than nothing ^_^

wanna try ANBU's sub many fans said It's coooooooool

and ofcourse I'm waiting for CA sub

See Yaa

[stormy001_M1A2]

Originally Posted by ordnance11

I'm seeing parallels between Fan and Justy Ueki Tylor. But having seen Legend of Galactic Heroes, and Crest of the Stars series, I have a complaint:

Why is it the democratic leaders are portrayed as craven politicians out to sell their own skins at the first sign of trouble and it's the martial nobility that is seen as noble? And the hero is seen as a goofball? I know Lincolns, Trumans and Roosevelts don't grow on trees, but it'll be refreshing to see a leader who isn't afraid to knuckle under.

Same here. I always felt the writer is biased against representative democracy, down to the ideal itself. I personally loathed monarchy or any those aristocratic pretensions.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ordnance11

Why is it the democratic leaders are portrayed as craven politicians out to sell their own skins at the first sign of trouble

*looks at the current crop of politicans in America, Europe and Japan.

I wonder what gave the author such redicules idea that politicans are craven cowards.

and it's the martial nobility that is seen as noble?

In LOGH most of the nobility are as corrupt and cowardly as the politicians.

The ones who are does act responsibly are the arm forces and that is true of both the empire and the alliance.

And the hero is seen as a goofball? I know Lincolns, Trumans and Roosevelts don't grow on trees, but it'll be refreshing to see a leader who isn't afraid to knuckle under.

LOGH, Crest/Banner and Tytania.

who is the goofball? Yang is no goofball and neither is Jinto. As for Fan, we haven't seen enough of him tell if he is a goofball.

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

Same here. I always felt the writer is biased against representative democracy, down to the ideal itself. I personally loathed monarchy or any those aristocratic pretensions.

personally i thought the author was down on government that has grown old and set int hier ways. You can see it in LOGH, both the Alliance and the Empire was shown as old and steep in corruption.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by signorRossi

Was that really a problem? I mean, the democracy of Heinessen was clearly in decline and while it was shown that the Empire on the other side was moving to expand citizen's freedom and rights I think that the makers of LotGH didn't want to discredit democracy and show that benevolent autocracy is better, they actually wanted to show what happens when the citizens of a democracy let loose and put in power people that are not fit for it. Then clearly the war against the empire (which could be seen by the invasion of empire territory) had become more a tool to serve for re-election than a means to keep its own independence for Heinessen.

I don't want to get too involved into discussing Legend of Galactic Heroes here, but it was a big problem for me. The writing made the Alliance out to be a target to show off the weaknesses of democratic systems, but it was effectively a democracy in name only. Moreover, its greatest proponents were people who simply espoused empty ideals without tempering them with their experiences.

If you or anyone else want to discuss this subject further, I suggest that you either post it in the Legend of Galactic Heroes thread or to PM me. I will warn you that I've already had a PM conversation on the show, and that I can get very long-winded.

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

Same here. I always felt the writer is biased against representative democracy, down to the ideal itself. I personally loathed monarchy or any those aristocratic pretensions.

I get much the same feeling. It seems to arise a bit in Ryoko Case Files as well.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

they problem is that the canons were one use. it is that they explode afterwards. And as powerful as they are, their range is limited, unlike a missile.

- Short Range (compare to missile)
- One used (blowup afterward)
- considering the size, probably at least moderately expensive to built.

As I wrote earlier, given their tremendous firepower, such weapons would be just about perfect for siege warfare.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

*looks at the current crop of politicans in America, Europe and Japan.

I wonder what gave the author such redicules idea that politicans are craven cowards.

I have no idea. The functionality of those democracies is much better than the ones in LoGH.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

who is the goofball? Yang is no goofball and neither is Jinto. As for Fan, we haven't seen enough of him tell if he is a goofball.

I believe that ordnance11 is referring to the leader of Euria.

[gaguri]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I believe that ordnance11 is referring to the leader of Euria.

I could be wrong but I believe he labelled the leader of Euria as coward, and Fan as goofball, which is also the impression I got (and his jolly theme soundtrack doesn't help). Not that I'm complaining, since it serves as a nice contrast to Tytania's srsbsns.

As for the cannon, it was plausible enough for me to buy Fan's tactic as a sensible one. It's not hard to imagine that a manually-activated, time-delaying, self-destructing one-time-use weapon to be out of their expectations on an open battle. Cannon was successful only because the entire enemy fleet came too close and got too clustered to avoid. I suppose it doesn't sit right with many that such a powerful weapon wasn't expected at all (even by Jouslan, at least he seems to be above Ariabart), but tacticians (good or bad) gets careless, especially when they're fighting against a small fleet commanded by an unknown general (which was the case for Zhuge Liang's two successive losses against Jiang Wei in RoTK) some take risks and succeed, that's all part of war (or in games like Starcraft), as long as it makes enough sense and not complete bullshit, I have nothing to complain about.
I will agree however that it was more of 'shock' gimmick, even though there is recognition of tactical merit of Fan deceiving Aribart and luring him into the trap.

[Usami Haru]

Watched episode 3 in the morning, and it bothers me that there's too much Fan Hulic. Don't mind me, I like him, but the Tytania family part of the history seems a lot more interesting. Did that happen in the novels too?

Weird new characters are weird too.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Usami Haru

Watched episode 3 in the morning, and it bothers me that there's too much Fan Hulic. Don't mind me, I like him, but the Tytania family part of the history seems a lot more interesting. Did that happen in the novels too?

Weird new characters are weird too.

typical of the author's style in Logh. he switch back back forth between the storylines until a mini arc comes up.

[Ninjacat]

I wouldn't call the mayor of Euria cowardly. He's merely pragmatic.

He was in a rather bad situation. He couldn't just roll over and give his city-state's promises of future prosperity as well as it's independance. The Tytania had no right over that new tech. Besides it would help the negociations if he showed he was willing to back up his words. He said himself he expected the Eurian fleet to break away and run, so not many Eurians were supposed to die in that battle.

It's one thing to win one battle, it's another for a city-state to get into a full-scale war against the family that owns the universe. Props to the Mayor for rewarding Fan with a nice fat bonus before sending him away. If it were me he'd be in chains waiting for the Tytania to pick him up.

The Mayor is right to be afraid.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that Kaioshin Sama is arguing along a similar line that I was: that the battle was decided by a gimmick that relied on an enemy's incompetence rather than by using solid tactics. I don't think that it's a major problem unless the later battles are decided the same way. Given the author's pedigree, it looks like it can go either way.

I'm rather surprised that the nobody had been able to think up of a strategem using such powerful weapons before. A one-use cannon doesn't seem to be a very big drawback - missiles are one-use as well, and there's tons of applications for them. At the very least, it'd be horribly effective in sieges.

Look at the situation. Fan was put in a situation that was basically hopeless. His own superior wanted to lose. Normally when you plan your battle, you want to mislead your opponent and show them what you want them to see but still prepare backup plans in the event that your opponent saw through your deception. In this situation, however, Fan doesn't have the luxury to plan that way because of the large imbalance in fleet strength and no option of escaping without a fight - he was order to defend the planet. If his opponent saw through his plan, the result would not be any different then if he fought conventionally. Thus he gambled.

He went for high risk high reward proposition - focusing on maneuvering his opponent into his trap and maintain the deception long enough until it is too late. If Ariabart had been more careful and not been overconfident, he probably would have seen something being amiss and the whole trap would not have worked because the Tytania fleet can just bombard from long range to slowly wear down the fake cannon/ship before entering effective range/envelope of their explosion. He made the correct assessment of Ariabart's overconfidence and tried to reinforce it even further with the unmanned ship assault and then the panic retreat after. Even then, Ariabart had another chance to realize his mistake when he saw the sphere defensive formation. He even commented that the opposing commander is not a complete amateur. If he give some careful consideration of why a decent commander would waste his force on an useless attack and then choose to retreat into a most effect defensive formation, he may have suspected something is afoot. But because he was overconfident, he saw only what he wished to see - which is just what Fan was betting on - a gamble that Ariabart will remain overconfident and not see through the deception.

While he gambled on his opponent's overconfidence (not incompetence), the tactic is not a gimmick at all. He took full advantage of the situation where an overwhelming superior force commanded by a duke of Tytania who have never lost a fleet engagement attacking a small defending fleet with almost no chance of victory to breed the sense invincibility into Ariabart and then maintained the deception for as long as possible before triggering the trap. If his gamble failed, the result would not be any different from losing a conventional engagement. He might as well forgo any fall back plan and try to maximize the potential success of his gamble (by the initial assault, then the fake panic retreat, then delayed trigger of his trap at the last possible moment when his enemy finally realized the nature of his defending 'fleet' to achieve maximum effect). If Ariabart didn't realize any sooner, he would not have gotten out of it alive.

The simple reason the tactic has not been used successfully before is quite simple. It is difficult to maneuver your opponent into such close range for those cannons to be effective.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Enjoyed ep3. I'm liking Fan Hulic more now. More plot unrolling. No problems with the "weird" new characters. This is seeming more and more like good space opera, with intertwining plots and numerous characters, and action on various planets and in space.

And one of my favorite young seiyuu, Yahagi Sayuri, gives us an entirely new voice, as Rira. I once said she'd be the new Kawasumi Ayako -- a natural who develops herself into real pro -- and maybe she will be. She is steadily gaining breadth and skill:

[velkito]

hmm, good stuff

The OP at first felt like "not my sort of thing" but at second ep. it felt splendid. As I watched the first ep.'s battle I was thinking "wait, Code Geass had one or two battles envelop similarly - trick the enmy into believing they are this close to a crushing victory, then pull out a neat trick up your sleeve(=environment) and leave them with a gaping jaw". Last but by all means not least - while I don't normally fancy lolies, I liked this one, the shoe shiner. She was acting naturally =O

*goes off to see 3rd ep*

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

While he gambled on his opponent's overconfidence (not incompetence), the tactic is not a gimmick at all. He took full advantage of the situation where an overwhelming superior force commanded by a duke of Tytania who have never lost a fleet engagement attacking a small defending fleet with almost no chance of victory to breed the sense invincibility into Ariabart and then maintained the deception for as long as possible before triggering the trap. If his gamble failed, the result would not be any different from losing a conventional engagement. He might as well forgo any fall back plan and try to maximize the potential success of his gamble (by the initial assault, then the fake panic retreat, then delayed trigger of his trap at the last possible moment when his enemy finally realized the nature of his defending 'fleet' to achieve maximum effect). If Ariabart didn't realize any sooner, he would not have gotten out of it alive.

I think that you've mistaken my meaning. My criticism of Fan Hulic's tactic is not a criticism upon his skills at all - it's a criticism of the writing. In and of itself, it's not a problem unless more battles are resolved using such gimmicks.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

The simple reason the tactic has not been used successfully before is quite simple. It is difficult to maneuver your opponent into such close range for those cannons to be effective.

That's why I wrote that the cannon's most obvious application would be in sieges, where the attacker is presumably facing a well-protect, but relatively static target like a space fortification. For Ariabart to say that such a unique weapon could have absolutely no battlefield application whatsoever seems to be rather shortsighted.