(L) Simoun

[FatPianoBoy]

You have a lot of good points, ujiuji. I don't quite agree with Neviril's grief not being convincing (she's a spoiled brat before this happens, after all) or Paraietta and Kaimu playing war striking a bad note, though.
The rest seems pretty justified and makes a lot of sense now that someone actually said it, but I think there are reasons why things went the way they did (other than bad writing).

The fanservice (what very little there is) is just gloss. After a while, I didn't even notice it.
First episode was very confusing. It didn't help that I had to watch Doremi's version the first time around, since they did a pretty sloppy job (juunana = 17; not 19, guys ) Rewatch it after you finish the series and you'll probably appreciate it more.
Aaeru was very bloodthirsty, but once she actually gets a taste of blood, she realizes what it's all about. Her ordeal in episode four changes her whole disposition about fighting and killing. I think this was actually an example of very good writing.
Limone's a tough kid. Stuff doesn't usually bother her. The reason Neviril's experience didn't bring on Limone's angst sooner was probably because she wasn't there when it happened, so she probably knew very little about what had happened at that point since no one who was there felt much like talking about it. And there's a difference between 'forgetting' and 'moving on,' as you'll see in later episodes. Actually, this is one of Simoun's main themes. Regardless, this one does still feel a bit strange
I think in Mamiina's case that she was trying to seduce Neviril - not rape her . But yeah, I see what you mean about her being really, really stupid. Killing a comrade is not how you further your military career. She's just so eager to prove that she's just as good as all the fancy people that she's blind to what she's really doing. She gets much, much better as time goes on, though.

[warainagara]

ujiuji,
the first three episodes of Simoun were something intolerable to me.
I began to have an interest in the show from ep 4 and got more attracted as the story flew.
The impression I got first was the show is quite static, which I don't like as a characteristic of an anime.
The events and characterization in the beginning part were suddenly given meanings when I finally understood the characters' features and personal situations.

Aaeru is just indifferent to others' feelings and has her own motive to get aggressively involved in battles.
These are combined with her childlike nature and appear as seemingly bloodthirst.

Neviril is reserved about expressing her feelings.
The static scenes with close-up to her in the initial eps are obviously about her feeling of loss.
That may not be interesting way of directing but fits her character, imo.

Limone's fear emerged when Dominura ordered her to do auriga.
Her order was the trigger of reviving angst from the event that Limone's pair died during her auriging.
Why do they have to show the angst before Dominura comes up?

As for Kaimu and Paraietta scene, they are not really sympathetic for the human beings in the enemy crafts because the can't see them.
This is implied in the later episode and explictly mentioned by Rodoreamon at a point.

Also, Mamina's attempt was not rape in my view.
She wanted to secure her position by being united to Sibylla Aurea physically by seduction.
She was transferred from another Chor and was reunited with Rodore, her ex-master, who will play an important role to deal with her issue.
The transfer, her complex about low standing, and the bustle she makes after the transfer are so closely connected, so transfer itself is even necessary for her story.

The depiction of emotions and characterization is real and agreeable in spite of the inevitable limitation it has as an anime.
And that's one of the reasons the show works for me.

Yui,
Thanks for the info!
I was aware of the show but haven't seen it yet.
Ok, let's give a shot.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Interesting points, ujiuji, but I have to say I disagree with almost all of them -- although I do have a couple of other similar ones. In general, except for a few small problems, I think this show has great writing, rather than bad.

I do agree that episode 1 was confusing. The director decided to plunge right in to this unusual (to say the least) situation, full of strange terms and a bizarre society, without gradually introducing us to things. On the other hand, a slower introduction would have stretched things out, slowed the show's flow, and perhaps not given him the chance to have the first key event of the series take place in episode 1. And no matter how much introduction he gave, I'm not sure it would have worked. This method certainly made us feel we were in a strange new world.

The only reason I was unsure what had happened -- and in fact Neviril's reaction left me little doubt -- was that I was not yet familiar enough with the simoun to be sure the twisted rear part of the simoun meant what I thought it did. You may find episode 19 equally confusing. In both cases, I think the main problem is the storyboarding: just not having the right views to make the situation clear. Both episodes were storyboarded by the director, I believe. In any case, when I go back and look at either of those episodes now, they are among the most powerful.

Spoiler for more discussion of ujiuji's points:

As for Aaeru, I liked her from the beginning. She was an innocent who loved simoun. Her focus wasn't killing people, but flying and doing well and being gung-ho. As others have said -- as Amuria said in episode one -- they had trouble killing people when they saw their faces and realized what was really going on. But I actually think Aaeru was not so averse to killing people. She told Paraietta later that she had experienced war, I believe. As I said, she was an innocent. Innocent like a tiger. Her reaction in episode 8 was more to do with her beloved simoun than any people, I believe.

One thing I disagree with completely is your view of Neviril's grief. It made perfect sense to me. In fact, I thought it was one of the most wonderful things about the show. She saw herself as a priestess. She was uncomfortable with the whole idea of using simoun as a weapon of war. The death of her Pair was complete confirmation of this feeling. And she had seen the face of the enemy. And she felt (and was) responsible for Amuria's death. She just couldn't bring herself to re-enter the fray until the events of episode 8.

Limone's reactions made sense to me throughout: she was a selfish little genius. She went out with Aaeru because she was disgusted with the wusses in Corps Tempest who couldn't fly Ri Maajon. I don't think she was so worried about other people dying as about making a mistake and harming her self-image. But I still liked her. She had the same sort of purity as Aaeru.

Mamiina's aggression in the Maaju Pool did not really make sense to me at the time. Later I came to think she was not trying to kill Aaeru, which would certainly not have helped her own career, but to get her to say she would give up Neviril. That's actually what she said, I believe. But I agree that I had to exercise all my powers of willing suspension of disbelief for that one. I do think that what others have said is right: she thought she was seducing Neviril, not raping her. Neviril's reply set her straight.

The change in Mamiina's apparent character comes when her patron tells her he is disappointed in her, and says the whole chor is to be disbanded. This is like a death sentence for her. That scene of her sitting on the floor beneath a porthole is when we are meant to think her character is being emptied out and she is having to start anew. The thing that I found harder to believe was that the other sibylla would accept her after that. There, the only explanation I can see is Rodoreamon: she is a real aristocrat, as you will later see. She accepts Mamiina, so the others do, too. And Mamiina hardly changed overnight. She was still a bitch in the early part of her time on Messis.

And Mamiina or someone else had to be introduced because the chor was below strength. That's why Aaeru, Limone, Morinas, Mamiina, Yun, and Dominura joined the chor. The idea of Neviril's father forcing a new pair on her made perfect sense, too: he was fighting a war. Neviril thought she was just a priestess, and had the luxury of waiting as long as she liked.

The Barbarella flight suits were strange, but they certainly served to show this was an exotic society. They were not like a glimpse of pantsu, but a steady thread throughout the show. They seemed to me like an acceptable form of fanservice, which was ignored by some people and worked on others (e.g., me, I suppose). I think the pre-flight kiss and the flight suit were the way the show gave itself a constant undercurrent of sex without having anything more egregious. But I agree that this undercurrent is one reason the show did not become popular: it seems to contradict the basic seriousness of the show. But not for me.

The play-fighting of Kaimu and Paraietta was a lightening of the mood and of the relationship between them. The constant tension between the sibylla as girls and priestesses, and the sibylla as soldiers, is part of the whole underpinning of the show. That scene worked for me. And the two seiyuu have mentioned that they liked it, too. Kaimu was a few months short of her 17th birthday at that point. Not sure whether that does or does not make her a child soldier. I suspect even the more willing among real child soldiers may play at war occasionally, too, being children.

And you are definitely right that the word simoun comes from the French aircraft of the 1930s, which Saint-Exupéry flew. There is a scene in the anime Air where a character is holding a copy of The Little Prince, so I think it is somewhat well-known in Japan.

And I just want to say that thanks to Yui, I have looked at the first two episodes of 009-1 and enjoyed them. The look is really nice, the fighting well done, the fighters attractive, and the stories move quickly and are agreeably camp. This is one show where the fanservice is absolutely front and center. With shows like Asatte no Houkou and Hataraki-man around, I'm not sure I'll keep watching. But I did enjoy what I saw.

[fignae]

Originally Posted by ujiuji

Thirdly I didn't care for Aeru at first. She was too bloodthirsty. In episode four when she went out with Limone her thoughts were, basically, "Hey, let's not waste time just practising, let's go and find someone to kill!"

I didn't like Aaeru immediately, either. It was episode 4 that made me sit up and say, "Hey, this show is something else!" Yes, Aaeru seemed a little crazy to me at first, to want to go out and kill. But it's all a front, and that front quickly peels away as the episode plays itself out; she's in tears by the end, faced with the truths of war. The red eye only emphasized this. I think it's a pity if they took it out in the DVD version.

For a start Neviril's grief doesn't convince me. We may all react differently to grief, but I've seen anime that handle it in a way I find more recognisable & true.

On the handling of grief:
Yes, I've had the same thoughts. Grief is quite popular in anime, and I was comparing it to other depictions of people grieving, and thought Simoun fell short here. I think my opinion changed with the scene in which everyone was laughing at Rodore's whatshisface on the Messis, at which I realized that these girls are incredibly strong people, and maybe that's why they made it thus far. It is not the ideal situation for me, as I would have preferred detailed delving into individual emotional states; Neviril doesn't count. But this show isn't interested in such representations. The angst is, instead, steadily trickled in via moments during battle where pilots suddenly see the others' humanity, undercurrents in the quiet of bedrooms and corridors, sudden screams in the night. The effect accumulates, and keeps referring back to itself. One character's pain always harks back to another's, like Limone recalling Neviril's. These narrative devices are very close to the surface, and perhaps because of that, a little off-putting, but it's part of the style of the show, like obvious rhyme or regular rhythm in poetry. The subtlety comes through in other aspects and balances it all out. That's how I reconciled it for myself, probably.

Fortunately episode six was a lot better although the way Kaimu & Parietta played war in the Simoun struck a false note when you consider they've been involved in the real thing & seen comrades die. I may be wrong but I can't imagine child soldiers in our world "play war" with their rifles when not shooting people for real.

My opinion has also been affected by how Koshimizu Ami found this scene memorable. Why was it so? I believe the scene may have been particularly powerful because these were two teenagers forced to grow up too soon, and here they are indulging in a game like children. It's a significant move for the stoic Paraietta, and even Kaimu is normally so serious. But it is sad, not weird, that they should be "playing at war" -- perhaps this is the only game that occurs to them, as they're around Simoun all day. So it must be cathartic to be able to use the vehicle as a source of amusement instead of pain. Are child soldiers ever allowed to be children? I don't know.

Then we come to episode seven and Mamiina.

I agree that Mamiina's integration into the choir appears unrealistic. More could have been done to make the transition smoother. Just one compact scene would have helped a lot. Maybe there wasn't time.

Very good point, above, about Rodoreamon's ojou-sama status. Pity it requires so much deduction on our parts.

Thanks, everyone!

[009-1 is scary. I enjoyed it and might continue. But... yeah.]

[Simon]

Originally Posted by warainagara

Haha,,, quite inflammatory copy....

Cheers for the translation - I wonder if Simoun Co. is headquartered anywhere near Kichijōji station?

And speaking of non-canonical, I've just spotted the DVD 4 cover. Hmm...

Originally Posted by fignae

The red eye only emphasized this. I think it's a pity if they took it out in the DVD version.

Turns out they didn't. Interestingly, however, it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the storyboards.

[jtrog]

Wow active message still!. Well, when I saw eps 1 - 2 - 3 Loong ago, the series didn't make much sense but I liked it none the less.

As I said in last post watching Eps 1 - 2 - 3 over again, (with words/dialog repaired I believe) it really cemented the show. Those 3 were GREAT! I can't understand most of the detracting posts in the thread here. Ep 8 really started the ball rolling.

I THINK, those detracting the series must have bad video or audio drivers and really watching it in a screwed up way in their systems. Honesty, with surround sound and h24 its freggin awsome. Any one even slightly interested such as a spouse going 'what the hell is she watching now...' in the background would become a fan.....

Only other thing is possibly some where actually watching to see some 'yuri' things and were disapointed in that none ever happened.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I've posted some general thoughts about Simoun in the hashihime blog. Just to make my point of view clear, I called the piece: "Simoun -- One of the Greatest Anime Ever Made." Feel free to comment here or there, if anything strikes you.

Kaoru Chujo, does commenting actually work at your blog? I mean I doubt you'd want me commenting on Simoun there , but a while ago I commented on one of the BGI episodes and the comment never appeared. Since it wasn't in any way inflammatory, I doubt you'd have modded it; and there don't seem to be any comments there on any of your posts. Which I find surprising, given your writing skill and how active you are at AS. (Maybe you have a bunch of comments sitting in the moderation queue?)

Anyway, what I would comment on if I could is that (assuming Simoun is great, which as you know I disagree on) titling your piece "One of the Greatest Anime Ever Made" seems to imply that you've seen (almost) all anime that was ever made (Edit: Well, I suppose if you think that it's difficult to imagine there being anything greater, you could say it even if you haven't seen quite that much.)

Edit2: One more thing, since you yet again mentioned popularity in your blog entry. I think some people earlier misunderstood my position about whether Simoun should be popular or not. Actually, when I saw it and quickly got the feeling I wouldn't like it, I also thought that it'd probably be very popular. That usually seems to be the case with the shows I feel that particular type of dislike with--like, say, My-HiME and Scrapped Princess. So, whatever I was talking about before, it wasn't exactly meant to be a "this is why it's not popular" commentary in the way some people thought it was.

[atosaki]

yononaka, no offence but I've been watching the whole discusstion above and the impression i got was that your points are mostly focused on fans, rather than anime itself. The way you twist your words and talk about an individual fan really discomforts me.
I'm not saying that you should not post your comment or something like that. What i'm saying is that If you really want to discuss about Simoun, I have no objection(rather, i'm willing to know how others think of Simoun) but i suggest you to do that in some respectful manner.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by atosaki

yononaka, no offence but I've been watching the whole discusstion above and the impression i got was that your points are mostly focused on fans, rather than anime itself. The way you twist your words and talk about an individual fan really discomforts me.
I'm not saying that you should not post your comment or something like that. What i'm saying is that If you really want to discuss about Simoun, I have no objection(rather, i'm willing to know how others think of Simoun) but i suggest you to do that in some respectful manner.

If you mean the way I talk about Kaoru Chujo, I'm not sure what the problem is. I have nothing against him(?) personally--quite the opposite, in fact. I talk about KC's stuff because he is the premiere Simoun supporter and at the same time I disagree with him quite strongly. It is true that I haven't talked a lot about the details of the anime, but the more "meta" issues such as why lots of people seemed to have a problem with Simoun were also of interest. Anyway, if KC has a problem with me (I doubt it, since he gave me positive rep--but I suppose things may have changed since), I'm sure we can clear it up. What others have to do with it I don't know, since I haven't focused on anyone else. Frankly, I'm getting tired of defending myself for being disrespectful and "twisting my words" and whatnot when I'm not actually doing it, just because someone says so. At the same time people feel free to analyze my person (not a problem, BTW, I'm just mentioning it in terms of focus)...

[fignae]

Originally Posted by yononaka

(Edit: Well, I suppose if you think that it's difficult to imagine there being anything greater, you could say it even if you haven't seen quite that much.)

I'm glad you edited your post, yononaka. Frankly, it's fairly common to say that something is the best, and it does not have to be a definitive statement of anything. It was a weird nitpick that kinda misses the big picture of her blog entry.

Actually, when I saw it and quickly got the feeling I wouldn't like it, I also thought that it'd probably be very popular. That usually seems to be the case with the shows I feel that particular type of dislike with--like, say, My-HiME and Scrapped Princess. So, whatever I was talking about before, it wasn't exactly meant to be a "this is why it's not popular" commentary in the way some people thought it was.

Yeah, but we can take it as a "this is why it's not popular" commentary. That's a more interesting angle than "why yononaka did not like it"....

And yes, seems like Mai-HiME, huh? Has part of the formula: fanservice, popular seiyuu, pretty, bright colours, yuri.... Man, am I happy it isn't. Oh, wait, big, popular franchise, an anime that I do like.... eh, let's just say we need all types, and I really didn't mean to make that comparison again....

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by fignae

I'm glad you edited your post, yononaka. Frankly, it's fairly common to say that something is the best, and it does not have to be a definitive statement of anything. It was a weird nitpick that kinda misses the big picture of her blog entry.

Well, "the best ever made" is not something I would say unless I really meant all that entails. And I didn't miss the big picture, but since I disagree with KC as much as I do, and given the recent feelings about me here, there didn't seem to be much point in getting into it. It was very nicely expressed as KC always does, and I would definitely be tempted to watch Simoun if I read it (deja vu ).

Yeah, but we can take it as a "this is why it's not popular" commentary. That's a more interesting angle than "why yononaka did not like it"....

Well, sure, if you just discuss it in those terms; but if it comes back in the way I was pseudo-quoted about it earlier and is yet another thing ascribed to me negatively, it's not a lot of fun. So I thought I'd clarify.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I have no personal problem with yononaka except that I disagree with most of what he writes. I meant those rep points, and I still do. I think his contributions here have been mainly a good thing, for giving us/me some intelligent opposition. But I don't think that what atosaki said about him is completely wrong. It's just that I can't really criticize because I've done the same things myself. It's hard to keep the personal totally out of things and keep from trying to justify/defend oneself. We all have to try to keep the atmosphere positive.

I used that extravagant title mainly to be declarative about what I think and to make an impression. No, I haven't seen every anime, or even all of some of the best. But I've seen enough of the ones people think are the best that I feel confident in my opinion. Of course, it's only my opinion, but at least I have some specifics in that piece to say why I hold it. EDIT: But what I said was that it was "one of the best," not "the best." I might even think it's the best I've seen, but I'm not even totally sure about that, since I haven't seen my previous favorites so recently, and I do have trouble objectively judging some of the top-rated anime, since they're in genres I just can't relate to that well -- as I think Simoun is for many people.

As for the popularity thing, I wasn't discussing what you said, yononaka, so much as giving my opinion of why the show wasn't more popular, based on my analysis of the comments of a number of people, including you, and my own reactions. As for Mai-HiME, I disliked it for the longest time, until someone here suggested that episodes 8 and 14 and subsequent were a lot better than what went before. I watched and I agreed. But still not a patch on Simoun.

By the way, I found fignae's analysis of how angst is "trickled in" to Simoun and of narrative techniques extremely interesting. I'm still pondering. Nothing of that bothered me, nor did I think of it as "close to the surface," but rather as subtle in itself, as opposed to dealing with emotional states more directly. But I really have to look and think some more, and I probably misunderstood some of what fignae wrote. One thing that struck me over the time I was writing the blog piece was that although each episode is a unit in itself, the emotional trajectories over the whole series are what's most important. The words "trickling in" struck that chord for me.

And I certainly haven't modded any comments on my blog. Thanks for the heads-up, yononaka, I'll have to look into it.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

EDIT: But what I said was that it was "one of the best," not "the best."

I know, I was responding to fignae's "fairly common to say that something is the best" in my last post. (Since my comment was about "ever made", it wasn't relevant if it was one of or the best.)

As for the popularity thing, I wasn't discussing what you said, yononaka, so much as giving my opinion of why the show wasn't more popular, based on my analysis of the comments of a number of people, including you, and my own reactions.

I know, you've been discussing it long before I started posting I just referred to your blog post because it was the latest mention of the popularity topic.

Anyway, I'm glad at least someone doesn't have a huge problem with me. (Especially when it's you )

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ujiuji

Quick question, is the title "Simoun" an oblique reference to the pilot and writer Saint-Exupéry? Seems to fit in a number of ways.

I'm not sure about Saint-Exupéry himself, but it's definitely named after the Caudron Simoun that he made famous. This was confirmed in an interview with mecha designer Jin Seob Song, although my Google skillz have failed me in my attempt to find it (secondary source here).

What I did stumble across was this:

Spoiler for ep26:

For those who already know the final gender choices:

Simoun Character Poll

Runs Oct 13 - Nov 6. Vote for your favourite of 60(!) characters. You can also tell them what your favourite bits of the show were, what you'd like to see on the official site, and make any other general comments. It's in Japanese, obviously, but quite amenable to automated translation.

EDIT: Just noticed that it refers to DomiLimo's village as 過去の村 kako no mura, i.e. village of the past - which suggests they really did go back in time, rather than say jumping sideways to some parallel existence.

[FatPianoBoy]

You can literally vote for anyone and everyone that appears (or doesn't, like Aaeru's grandpa ) in the show in there. Even some of the mechs were included (no Messis? D: ). Wow.

Do I vote for Para-sama? Kaimu? Aaeru? Anubituf? Gah!!!
This shall be a tough decision.

[atosaki]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Do I vote for Para-sama? Kaimu? Aaeru? Anubituf? Gah!!!
This shall be a tough decision.

I can't make up my mind between Yun and Neviril

EDIT(preventing double post): yononaka, i had no intension to do so but if my post disturbed you, I do
apologize.

[warainagara]

Originally Posted by atosaki

I can't make up my mind between Yun and Neviril

Just go for Neviril, atosaki.
But we can vote as many times as we want.

[ujiuji]

Thanks to everyone to your replies. You've given me some good thoughts to ponder. As I said in my first post my intention was, in indirect reply to Kaoru Chujo's post #2140, to point out a few things that put me off when I first saw them and might put off others. What I said there doesn't represent my final view or even necessarily my current one. For instance the fan service only really bothered me in the first episode. The post was more of a snapshot of my reactions to the first ten episodes. Again, since that post I've watched episode eleven which partly answers my problems with Kaimu's antics in episode six. But that does not invalidate the purpose of the original post which was, to repeat, to point out things that struck a wrong note when first seen, without benefit of hindsight. Matrim's point that Kaimu & Parietta were drunk at the time makes perfect sense without the need for hindsight, I should have thought of that, thanks. Fignae's suggestion of the cathartic nature of the "play" is also a very good point.

I would like to answer a few of the other points raised however.

Spoiler for More long-winded ramblings:

When I said the first episode was confusing it was not the unexplained aspects of the world that bothered me, I liked that. (Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou fan; completed in fourteen volumes and the main mysteries of vol. one still not explained). It was not realising what happened to Amuria which caused me to misinterpret several subsequent scenes, a fair way into episode two in fact. Also I was confused as to how many narrators there were. It seemed at times that there was more than one point of view. Even at a second viewing, knowing it was all supposed to be the enemy soldier, I still had doubts. Maybe that's just my problem.

While I accept the points made by warainagara and Matrim about episode five, that Limone had not been put in that situation before, it still did nothing for me, apart from the pretty snow scenes. It seemed a bit clichéd and resolved too quickly.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

One thing I disagree with completely is your view of Neviril's grief. It made perfect sense to me. In fact, I thought it was one of the most wonderful things about the show. She saw herself as a priestess. She was uncomfortable with the whole idea of using simoun as a weapon of war. The death of her Pair was complete confirmation of this feeling. And she had seen the face of the enemy. And she felt (and was) responsible for Amuria's death. She just couldn't bring herself to re-enter the fray until the events of episode 8.

I totally agree, except I see that as Neviril's crisis of conscience, not her grief. As you say, it was influenced by the death of Amuria but I don't think that was the only cause. In fact I think it reflects better on Neviril's character to believe it wasn't. Neviril's grief, to me, seems to consist of the odd flashback & angsty expression. Maybe I'm missing something. If I am I'd be genuinely grateful if somone could point it out.
To illustrate believable handling of grief, examples from Blue Seed and Gokujou Seitokai. I know neither of these shows are that well thought-of, but both hit me in the gut with a feeling of recognition I wasn't expecting.

Spoiler for Blue Seed, Gokujou Seitokai and veering off topic:

The part of Blue Seed where Momiji thinks Kusanagi is dead. She wanders around like an empty shell, showing no interest in anything, including her self-interest. Then suddenly her empty face collapses and the tears come flooding out. In Gokujou Seitokai, behind the exagerrated silliness, Rino's grief for her mother is always there in the background. She doesn't show it directly most of the time, but it's there in the way she overreacts to certain things and Puuchan at one point links her scatter-brained nature to it. Perhaps it's something too subtle to pick up unless you've experienced something similar or seen it at close quarters but I felt that there was someone on the staff of that show who understood. Maybe you'll say all that means is I'm more like country-bumpkin Momiji or space-cadet Rino than noble Neviril. I'm sure many people who know me would agree.

As for Aeru, well it would be good to know a little background or have some hint as to why she is so gung-ho and apparently bloodthirsty at first. Liking characters other people think are obnoxious is a speciality of mine, just a tiny hint of motivation, please. (This is a still a comment for the early episodes, she's growing on me).

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

The change in Mamiina's apparent character comes when her patron tells her he is disappointed in her, and says the whole chor is to be disbanded. This is like a death sentence for her. That scene of her sitting on the floor beneath a porthole is when we are meant to think her character is being emptied out and she is having to start anew. The thing that I found harder to believe was that the other sibylla would accept her after that. There, the only explanation I can see is Rodoreamon: she is a real aristocrat, as you will later see. She accepts Mamiina, so the others do, too. And Mamiina hardly changed overnight. She was still a bitch in the early part of her time on Messis.

And Mamiina or someone else had to be introduced because the chor was below strength. That's why Aaeru, Limone, Morinas, Mamiina, Yun, and Dominura joined the chor. The idea of Neviril's father forcing a new pair on her made perfect sense, too: he was fighting a war. Neviril thought she was just a priestess, and had the luxury of waiting as long as she liked.

I was aware that Chor Tempest was short-staffed, I was not saying that the new characters were unnecessary, but that the way that Mamiina was used to create conflict was unnecessary. She could still have been the source of conflict, if that's what the staff wanted, without the melodramatic, illogical and plain dumb behaviour we saw. (I don't think I'm going to give way on this one!)
It's been said that rape is seduction carried on by other means; the best spin I can put on the scene is an unwanted, unpleasantly agressive sexual advance.
If she did not really intend to kill Aeru, stating that as her intention seems an unwise move!
I agree about the speed with which the others accept Mamiina after that introduction, I'll take your word for it that it may be Rodoreamon's influence.
Mamiina might still have been a bitch after episode seven, but she wasn't a psychotic bitch! And her issues were justifiable or at least understandable. And her actions made some kind of sense.
Anyway, as I'm coming to like her, I've decided Mamiina's not really bad, she was just written that way.

As for Saint-Exupéry, Simon and Kaoru Chujo, I was reading some of the things people have been writing about Simoun's attitude to childhood and adulthood; while trying to not get spoiled, thanks everyone for using those tags; and wondered if they may be a complement or counterpoint to his ideas in The Little Prince. Then there's the whole pilot thing & his somewhat mysterious death.

Anyway, my eyestrain will come back if I go on like this. Mata ne!

[Matrim]

As for Aeru, well it would be good to know a little background or have some hint as to why she is so gung-ho and apparently bloodthirsty at first. Liking characters other people think are obnoxious is a speciality of mine, just a tiny hint of motivation, please.

The problem lies with the fact that Aaeru is mostly a favourite of the fans and not exactly thought of as obnoxious so your trick might not work. Anyway, I don't know if it was mentioned recently in the thread but Aaeru is very, very motivated to remain a Sibylla. The best way to do that is to win more battles which she does in an extremely straightforward manner that's typical of her. So basically the ends justify the means.

As I said, Mamiina just lost it. It was like a peasant marrying the most beautiful and desirable princess he (or she) could have imagined, only to find out she wants to have nothing to do with him and prefers someone who is not even that special at first glance. It was a fit of madness that does not have much to do with the real character of Mamiina. Whether such temporary madness is realistic or not, I am competent enough to discuss. But I am pretty sure Mamiina wanted to kill Aaeru,

Thanks to everyone to your replies. You've given me some good thoughts to ponder.

Likewise, this thread needed a bit more criticims to the series, I now see some events in the first episodes in a bit different light because of your points.

[warainagara]

Originally Posted by ujiuji

Spoiler for Blue Seed, Gokujou Seitokai and veering off topic:

The part of Blue Seed where Momiji thinks Kusanagi is dead. She wanders around like an empty shell, showing no interest in anything, including her self-interest. Then suddenly her empty face collapses and the tears come flooding out. In Gokujou Seitokai, behind the exagerrated silliness, Rino's grief for her mother is always there in the background. She doesn't show it directly most of the time, but it's there in the way she overreacts to certain things and Puuchan at one point links her scatter-brained nature to it. Perhaps it's something too subtle to pick up unless you've experienced something similar or seen it at close quarters but I felt that there was someone on the staff of that show who understood. Maybe you'll say all that means is I'm more like country-bumpkin Momiji or space-cadet Rino than noble Neviril. I'm sure many people who know me would agree.

Spoiler:

Well, Neviril withdrew herself from her office as the regina of Chor Tempest until ep 8. They could have shown Neviril wandering at night alone, crying, repeatedly calling Amuira's name and the like. Oh, wait, she did once something like that. Though, I don't think they intended to make the audience sympathize with her grief, rather get an info about her situation, since her state of being locked inside herself is a key for unfolding the subsequent plot. She seemed in ep 8 to overcome the state of being shocked from Amuria's death but ep 13 revealed that was only superficial. Personally, I thank the staff for not attempting to drive us sympathetic for all the characters' initial emotions by giving highly emotional hints necessary for that. I'm not usually ready to feel the grief and angst imbued in the initial eps of a newly begun show. Those emotions that you think should be more clear are just initial conditions from which the characters develop into further interactions and conflicts among themselves. But I agree to a suggestion by someone that the main emotional interaction between protagonists, which would come later, could have been depicted with more detail than it actually was.

Originally Posted by ujiuji

As for Aeru, well it would be good to know a little background or have some hint as to why she is so gung-ho and apparently bloodthirsty at first. Liking characters other people think are obnoxious is a speciality of mine, just a tiny hint of motivation, please. (This is a still a comment for the early episodes, she's growing on me).

Spoiler:

Well, this show is special to me because I like all the characters from it. It's not that I hate anyone in other shows, but just not interested in quite many of them, especially one with typical pattern. But actually I found this might be one of my problem. Anime deeply overlaps with the character industry in Japan, which means agreeability and charm of characters are important for an anime to be popular. Story and directing may be less important in a sense. Some anime fans might quit watching a show only because they dislike main characters because of their ethical flaw, lack of moe or disagreeability of their acts.

AS said Aaeru originally had been planned to be a typical anime heroine with moe and gushing tears. I have no idea what caused such a dramatic change. Not only Aaeru but also other characters don't belong to typical anime girls. Their weakness is outspokenly revealed in the beginning part while moe or stereotype element of charms is not given sufficiently. I suspect that is one of the reasons Simoun was dropped in the early stage by so many watchers.

I can't say that someone who criticizes characters' acts or characteristics is wrong. For I think characters are the essence of the present animes in general, whether I like the fact or not. But I'd see anime from the same view I use for movies or novels, which may limit the number of animes I can enjoy. Bloodthirsty girl like Aaeru, bad girl like Mamina from the beginning, that's fine for me. I don't think an anime should present a character ethically established, likable at the first sight from the outset. In addition, Simoun is a show about girls who leaped from immaturity to inevitable adulthood with pain of growth. Losing some fanbase is inevitable considering the existing anime fandom in general.

[edit]
I'm sure that you are not saying they should be ethical or likable and that you need instant justification for their acts because you have trouble with them. I have seen many people who dropped Simoun at the early stage for the same reason you were discomforted by them. I'm addressing to both your comment and my understanding of them. The justification for the characters' feature comes later. And I think it does so because the show is not a character anime which should care for instant acceptability of characters but based on stories involving characters who initially have their own weakness and immaturity.
So you might not need to be quick to criticize the staff for failing to justify characters along with giving their disagreeable acts and to depict the emotions well enough to draw the audience's sympathy, since those things may not be their intention at all. But I really thank you for igniting my interest in the early eps of Simoun.