Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by Blazer-X

This is pretty much Gundam Seed's version of "Han Shot First". Is it necessarily worse than the original? Not completely (although it does make the victim look a bit incompetent). Is it necessary? Absolutely not.

Eh, I don't think anyone thinks that was a good change. Someone pulls a gun on you and tells you they're going to drag you to the local gangster so he can have his way with you. In that kind of situation, the gauntlet has already been thrown. It's just a matter of who makes the first move. All things considered, Han did more than enough to diffuse the situation to justifiably defend himself.

Anyway...

I kind of feel like people are underselling the merits of surrender. Anger and hatred doesn't necessarily translate into having the will to fight. Grief and fear of loss are just as likely to retard a people's willingness to commit to a war. That the enemy will give up because they can't stand to lose anymore or have lost the ability to fight.

Why does no one express this kind of a thought? I don't get the sense that the war has escalated to the point where surrendering is not an option for anyone. Even if there are fanatics, you can surrender from a position of strength. Call for a cease-fire. Give people a chance to clear the air and the bodies. There are medians between fighting, winning, and losing a war.

Well, Kira's died and gone to heaven. Or maybe it's purgatory? Or is it hell? I wouldn't put it past Lacus to be related to any of those things because holy shit what's up with her? If she'd do something like laugh I could maybe believe she was human, but she's so natural about being naturally unnaturally it's hard to believe that she exists at all.

Miri's grief over Tolle is quite something. Dereaka is a really smug arrogant little asshole. A perfect storm right there.

I can't believe Flay is still going on with her crazy schemes. Is she ever going to settle down? She has to know what she's doing is wrong.

What I don't get is why Miri felt compelled to protect Dereaka after trying to kill him.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

Eh, I don't think anyone thinks that was a good change. Someone pulls a gun on you and tells you they're going to drag you to the local gangster so he can have his way with you. In that kind of situation, the gauntlet has already been thrown. It's just a matter of who makes the first move. All things considered, Han did more than enough to diffuse the situation to justifiably defend himself.

Anyway...

I kind of feel like people are underselling the merits of surrender. Anger and hatred doesn't necessarily translate into having the will to fight. Grief and fear of loss are just as likely to retard a people's willingness to commit to a war. That the enemy will give up because they can't stand to lose anymore or have lost the ability to fight.

Why does no one express this kind of a thought? I don't get the sense that the war has escalated to the point where surrendering is not an option for anyone. Even if there are fanatics, you can surrender from a position of strength. Call for a cease-fire. Give people a chance to clear the air and the bodies. There are medians between fighting, winning, and losing a war.

Well, Kira's died and gone to heaven. Or maybe it's purgatory? Or is it hell? I wouldn't put it past Lacus to be related to any of those things because holy shit what's up with her? If she'd do something like laugh I could maybe believe she was human, but she's so natural about being naturally unnaturally it's hard to believe that she exists at all.

Miri's grief over Tolle is quite something. Dereaka is a really smug arrogant little asshole. A perfect storm right there.

I can't believe Flay is still going on with her crazy schemes. Is she ever going to settle down? She has to know what she's doing is wrong.

What I don't get is why Miri felt compelled to protect Dereaka after trying to kill him.

Lacus always seems to wear a mask that we rarely get to see her without it. She young but was well trained in politics by her father. Her naiveness the first time we see her in the show is more a means to get those around her to let down their guards which gives her an advantage like what she did when she stopped any battles from happening when Kira was trying to return her. There will be some scene later on where you get to see her without the mask though...

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Lacus always seems to wear a mask that we rarely get to see her without it. She young but was well trained in politics by her father. Her naiveness the first time we see her in the show is more a means to get those around her to let down their guards which gives her an advantage like what she did when she stopped any battles from happening when Kira was trying to return her. There will be some scene later on where you get to see her without the mask though...

That's one hell of a mask.

[Rising Dragon]

It wasn't portrayed the best. To many people, she just comes off as a total ditz one arc, and then once the Siegel stuff happens, it's like she does a personality overhaul.

[kuroihikari2]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Lacus always seems to wear a mask that we rarely get to see her without it. She young but was well trained in politics by her father. Her naiveness the first time we see her in the show is more a means to get those around her to let down their guards which gives her an advantage like what she did when she stopped any battles from happening when Kira was trying to return her. There will be some scene later on where you get to see her without the mask though...

Yeah. She's both a politician and idol/entertainer, two different masks she has to wear practically every time.

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by kuroihikari2

Yeah. She's both a politician and idol/entertainer, two different masks she has to wear practically every time.

She does it even in private though. Like she never winds down.

[monster]

I wouldn't say Lacus is wearing masks. Instead, she can be more serious whenever she wants, like when she chastised Rau.

[kuroihikari2]

Originally Posted by Bogart

She does it even in private though. Like she never winds down.

It's not unusual to me. I personally have a strict set of rules for myself on how to act with other people (and its different with different groups of people), and it's only when I'm with 5 or 6 specific people (most of them family) that I let go of those rules.

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by kuroihikari2

It's not unusual to me. I personally have a strict set of rules for myself on how to act with other people (and its different with different groups of people), and it's only when I'm with 5 or 6 specific people (most of them family) that I let go of those rules.

But even when you're alone?

[kuroihikari2]

Originally Posted by Bogart

But even when you're alone?

Hmmm... I don't know how it applies to Lacus, but when I'm alone I can actually be stricter with myself than when I'm with a certain group of friends. There are a lot of things I wouldn't even think of trying to do if no one was there to urge me to do it. For some people being uninhibited is a chore.

And it's probably the same with Lacus. She's probably the type of person who has had no need to celebrate extreme emotion and never gone to the point where she'd break down because of not being able to handle it. As a result she acts primarily as how she'd think people around her expect her to act at any given point of time.

[IceHism]

That is of course until she meets Kira. Only time she doesn't wear a mask. I like that. Able to fulfill the public's expectation of her while still having fun in her private time. She shows two extremes and her real personality is probably somewhere in between.

[cyberdemon]

Yeah around Kira is when she finally lets it go. He's the only one she doesn't feel the need to wear a mask around. even with Athrun who she was engaged to she still held a mask up. Around Kira though you see more genuine expressions from her. Not just what people expect to see from her.

Originally Posted by monster

I wouldn't say Lacus is wearing masks. Instead, she can be more serious whenever she wants, like when she chastised Rau.

more like it is just easier for her to become the mask. She has a mask of a politician which she used to stop Rau. a mask of an idol like she used to ease tensions while she was aboard the AA. The mask of a leader. When she is with Kira though, she is able to truly drop any mask. She can only show him what she is truly feeling.

[Bogart]

I'm not really sure what this is about her dropping the mask around Kira. She didn't assert herself much while he was recovering in Plant. She was merely a calm present and half the time when she spoke words she left them to hang in the air, like she left something unsaid.

Probably the closest I've yet to have seen her as being argumentative was with Flay over whether Lacus was in ZAFT or not. She's the least opinionated character in the series so far. Doesn't hold a candle up to Cagalli in that regard. Lacus merely seems content to support Kira in whatever he wants to do, and I suppose she agrees with or believes in him for some reason.

She's just not very open about what she thinks or what she wants, yet neither does she seem content.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

I'm not really sure what this is about her dropping the mask around Kira. She didn't assert herself much while he was recovering in Plant. She was merely a calm present and half the time when she spoke words she left them to hang in the air, like she left something unsaid.

Probably the closest I've yet to have seen her as being argumentative was with Flay over whether Lacus was in ZAFT or not. She's the least opinionated character in the series so far. Doesn't hold a candle up to Cagalli in that regard. Lacus merely seems content to support Kira in whatever he wants to do, and I suppose she agrees with or believes in him for some reason.

She's just not very open about what she thinks or what she wants, yet neither does she seem content.

Ultimately, Lacus is not a very realistic or believable character. Rie Tanaka, her voice actress, said that Lacus was the most difficult role she's voiced, specifically for this reason.

[Bogart]

Sincere, yet manipulative, subtle, yet right to the point? I don't know if that's unrealistic or unbelievable. Suffice to say, the little "Yes?" she gave Athrun when he met her at the theater cracked me up to no end.

As for Rie Tanaka, she went crazy after voicing Suigintou didn't she?

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Ultimately, Lacus is not a very realistic or believable character. Rie Tanaka, her voice actress, said that Lacus was the most difficult role she's voiced, specifically for this reason.

I think it was more difficult because she couldn't understand what lacus was suppose to be and that Fukuda and his wife had strict standards. It is pretty hard to put her in any category except like mecha princess and that's still very vague.

However, we shouldn't confuse not understanding with realistic / believable. I could believe that someone like her exists somewhere.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

I'm not really sure what this is about her dropping the mask around Kira. She didn't assert herself much while he was recovering in Plant. She was merely a calm present and half the time when she spoke words she left them to hang in the air, like she left something unsaid.

Probably the closest I've yet to have seen her as being argumentative was with Flay over whether Lacus was in ZAFT or not. She's the least opinionated character in the series so far. Doesn't hold a candle up to Cagalli in that regard. Lacus merely seems content to support Kira in whatever he wants to do, and I suppose she agrees with or believes in him for some reason.

She's just not very open about what she thinks or what she wants, yet neither does she seem content.

you'll understand what we are talking about more in the next several episodes.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Bogart

So basically the only reason why Nicol and Tolle died is because Kira and Cagalli didn't try to stop Team Athrun from leaving Orb. Maybe they were kind of stunned from seeing them there, but all things considered they snuck into Orb. That they were involved in the destruction of Heliopolis might even be grounds for committing a war crime, never mind the current threat they presented.

You know this never bothered me until now, but you're right. Kira basically just lets Athrun leave, and doesn't say anything, even though he now knows Zaft is gonna be attacking them all out the instant they leave Orb.

He doesn't even really warn his own side, aside from being on standby immediately because he says he has a strong feeling they'll attack, as opposed to "I saw a Zaft soldier and he recognized me. They'll be on us as soon as we leave. Get the guns ready now!"

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

You know this never bothered me until now, but you're right. Kira basically just lets Athrun leave, and doesn't say anything, even though he now knows Zaft is gonna be attacking them all out the instant they leave Orb.

He doesn't even really warn his own side, aside from being on standby immediately because he says he has a strong feeling they'll attack, as opposed to "I saw a Zaft soldier and he recognized me. They'll be on us as soon as we leave. Get the guns ready now!"

Actually, they were prepared for an attack regardless as they knew there's at least a hight probability that ZAFT was still somewhere in the area. That's why they were prepared.

I'm also thinking that, aside from Kira being a softie, it would also be bad for Orb if they try to make a fuss about it. At the end of the day, Kira and Athrun only knew about each other. Orb had publicly announced no responsibility for the Archangel, so Kira and the Archangel might as well deal with ZAFT on their own without further involving Orb.

[Bogart]

Well, I liked it.

I don't understand what Ultimate Coordinator means, but Kira's got even more baggage to cope with than your standard Coordinator. It's obviously not his fault that he was brought about in such a way, but having been so what kind of a direction should he takes his life would be the pertinent question. It's easy to say whatever he wants, but believing that is something else.

All things considered, he was generally successful at protecting people when he could reasonably be expected to make a difference. Felt like he made the most of what Freedom provided him. Somehow I think the guy would be pretty helpless if he ever had to attack anyone though. Even when they were trying to stop the Genesis, he mostly protected Eternal and Archangel, along with the Plants.

I guess in the end, dying would have been a nice conclusion to his story, but I feel bad for him that he didn't.

Flay's character arc didn't end until after she was killed. She kind of floundered about for awhile there. She was obviously conflicted about many things, but stayed on one course, that is to try and drive Kira into an early grave. Once he was dead, I don't know what she was thinking anymore. At Alaska, she tried to return to Archangel for some reason, which is why Creuze was able to capture her. Maybe she just wanted to be around people she knew?

It's very sad that Azrael went full retard. If he'd insisted that they focus on Genesis, things probably would have worked out alright for everyone. Sure, he might have been a genocidal racist bastard, but he at least usually made sense. I don't know, maybe they would have still lost the war, even if they'd KO'd Genesis and Jachin Due with what was left of their nuclear arsenal? But then, it'd basically set the war back to a stalemate.

The Druggies were very entertaining. Hard to believe Yzak got the better of Shani at the end though. All the close shaves that guy had against Kira and Athrun, and he got the Count Dooku treatment. Olga got tag teamed by Athrun and Kira in the Meteors at least and Clotho basically lost his mind after being the only one left without Dominion to order him around and return to.

Lacus became more human, or rather more involved after she gave Kira Freedom. She still acted in the way she usually did from time to time, but only when she had nothing else to do. She's very good at asking questions, but as usual, not with what she actually believes. Outside of that confrontation with Flay, she never did confront someone that was personally at odds with her.

Not to say that I didn't enjoy her character. The bizarre, enigmatic way she handled herself, and the forceful commanding way she'd cause others to consider their actions. And then how she took the news of her father's death and her expressing her feelings for Kira to him without her knowing whether or not they'd be reciprocated. I guess that was the most selfish she'd ever acted in the series, but I don't know, she must have known that Kira had his own shit to deal with. What's it mean when she turns to him for comfort and companionship after so brief a time of knowing each other? Does that make her a bad person? Was she forcing Kira to shoulder her burden or could she not actually carry it?

Yzak's mom is hot.

Mwu went out like a boss. He and Murrue had a really good thing going. Felt really naturally to me. But man, if that woman didn't have the worst luck. If I didn't like her so much, I'd say she was a regular disaster. Everyone that gets close to or she admires dies. If you locked her into a room, the earth would open up, swallow the room, and spit her right back out.

Cagalli came off as being the strongest character in the series. Maybe because she had more to live up to, but she never really stopped moving or told to move forward by anyone. Even when her father died, that was mostly just a cruel thing he seemed to have done to her, but despite that she got back into the driver's seat.

I guess the thing with Miri was maybe Tolle's legacy. Miri herself probably agreed with him or he agreed with her, but the fact that he died is probably what kept her from becoming like Flay. Tolle wouldn't have wanted Dearka to die for being a Coordinator, not after the way he defended and supported Kira the whole time.

Archangel and her crew were remarkably okay with fighting the Earth Alliance forces in defense of Orb. Mwu especially mowed down dozens of Strike Daggers without flinching. Why'd he even sign up for the military in the first place?

Overall, I liked the series. I just wish that characters didn't take turns doing things. Like if it came down to who was in charge of the fleet, what goals it set, who would it be? Lacus or Cagalli? I'd say Lacus was the defacto leader, but it's probably Cagalli's resources and connections that kept the fleet maintained. Why is it that Cagalli was regulated to helping Athrun with his issues regarding his father and then to being a MS pilot, when she's the heir to Orb?

All Lacus and her crew had were the clothes on their back when they ditched Plant with the Eternal. She doesn't even have political or military connections within Plant itself, even if she's the heir to her father's legacy. Unlike Cagalli who probably is the de facto leader of Orb at this point, and as such in charge of the lion's share of the resources they had to work with, including the M-1s.

They sure are lucky that everyone more or less got along at the end and were ready to throw their lives away on behalf of the human race without any argument lol

One last question; why is it that Coordinators have no children? The government can mandate who you marry, but not how many children you have? Miguel had a little brother. Every other Coordinator in the series seems to be from a family with a single-child (well, that's probably true of every character in the series, but you get my point).