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erneiz_hyde · 2011-06-30, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeful Death

Well, Okarin's first time leap is optional anyway(if you phone Mayuri at that point it starts off on the one where she gets hit by a car just like the anime did)

One thing I wondered about the whole people living and dying thing

Spoiler for death:

What are you talking about? Faris Papa's death was prevented by changing world-lines with Faris' D-Mail.

Edit: Also, Faris Papa's case was easy because apparently the Point of Divergence was addresed correctly by Faris. Mayuri Death's PoD isn't addressed correctly until very much later in the game, right?

Hopeful Death · 2011-07-01, 00:25

What? No it wasn't. The only world lines established in the game were alpha and beta, alpha being the SERN dystopia line and beta being the WW3 line. You spend the majority of the game on the alpha line without changing it. The minor .07% divergence with the d-mails aren't changing world lines. Suzuha states that divergence needs to reach at least 1% to change world lines.

Though I guess it's true that in Faris's dad's case, the 'cause' really was just as simple as 'which form of transportation he took'. And the reason why changing world lines saves Mayuri has nothing to do with jumping world lines itself, but just the fact that their 'cause' all happens to be "SERN creates a Dystopia"(or perhaps more directly, because SERN caught wind of them. Perhaps you could say that SERN catching wind of them=
SERN creating a dystopia) and that jumping world lines is the only way to stop that, so by proxy, jumping world lines is the only way to save Mayuri(and Moeko etc.)

Though it's kind of weird that everyone else's 'cause' is tied to the SERN dystopia thing and he's not. Especially since they go out of their way to state that he was the only casualty of his accidenty Just seemed to me like they were trying to imply that there was supposed to be something more to that, but I guess not. I mean, it WAS like 8 years ago before SERN caught notice of the group, even if he did own the IBN5100. Not to mention he wasn't nearly as connected to everyone else to begin with.

Makes sense, after thinking about it. World lines and deaths are technically unrelated, but most of the deaths that oocur in the game are related to SERN which would incidentally require a world line jump. That put me under the illusion that preventing death=you must jump world lines, which is obviously wrong and stupid of me!

Ok, in place of that, how about another question. How come at the end of Luca's route, they can just continue living their life happily without having to worry about SERN, without taking any further measures to stop them? Well I know I should be forgiving since it's just a little optional route ending, but that's kind of weird. Every other route at least provided an explanation.

Xcomp · 2011-07-01, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeful Death

Well, Okarin's first time leap is optional anyway(if you phone Mayuri at that point it starts off on the one where she gets hit by a car just like the anime did)

True enough. I thought they could have left it in for a bit more realism though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeful Death

One thing I wondered about the whole people living and dying thing...

...how about another question. How come at the end of Luca's route, they can just continue living their life happily without having to worry about SERN, without taking any further measures to stop them? Well I know I should be forgiving since it's just a little optional route ending, but that's kind of weird. Every other route at least provided an explanation.

You're very much wondering about the same thing many other Japanese players did and these were covered in the official materials artbook Q & A.

Quote:

Q23 If the conservation of time meant Mayuri’s fate is fixed, why wasn’t Feyris’ father fixed too?

A. Due to the big " Millenium Bug" event, it is not pre-determined whether he dies or not in the branching timeline.

So in other words, this "conservation of time" rule means that all deaths and events are tied to one major event and will always occurr one way or another unless the bigger, more significant event is changed and they have shifted outside of the attractor field of one timeline.

And I can't remember what the exact answer was since I don't have the book on me but the dystopia still occurs in Ruka's ending just that they don't want to ruin a happy ending, lol...

The two of them live on with guilt knowing they could have saved Mayuri but they were also willing to spend what little time there was left together before the dystopia... Love is selfish.

Hopeful Death · 2011-07-01, 02:32

But Faris daddy's death was evaded the first time without changing any major events, right? All she did was get him to take the train instead of a plane and boom, he lived. Now I'm even more confused. Though I forgot about the year 2000 being important to the timeline as well(and that's around when his death happened, right.)

I don't know why the 2000 bug makes it so that his death is undetermined. Maybe something similar to why Chris's death wasn't completely predetermined on July 28th? I think I remember Suzuha saying something about it also being an important moment in convergence and her dying and living being a 50/50 chance? Perhaps that's why tricking Okabe's POV was able to save her. And that if it was a normal predetermined death, she would have died regardless of tricking Okabe or not. But Okabe witnessing the death was a huge step in the world deciding upon her life or death... or something. But... no. Chris's life and death itself seems to be the big 'timeline changing event' in 2010 whereas Faris dad's death is just a death that takes place around the same time that another timeline changing event occurred so it wouldn't be comparable.

Well whatever. God damn awesome game, that's all that matters

Xcomp · 2011-07-01, 07:35

Well, Feyris' dad's death is tied to the Millenium Bug but another significant event, SERN completing the time machine, occurs. This later significant event alters the past and so Feyris' dad's death is no longer completely determined by the Millenium Bug event. That's why Feyris was able to change his fate using a D-Mail.

In Kurisu's case, her life and death is important but it isn't the big significant event. Her death is actually tied to the survival of the time travel documents.

To save her, Okabe had to do two things.

First, trick himself and Nakabachi into thinking Kurisu was dead. This would have just temporarily saved Kurisu and she would have ended up dying in other ways like Mayuri but, this is crucial so that Okabe ends up having the strong will to help complete the time machine and in turn, allow him to carry this and the next step out.

The next step was to make sure the time travel documents were burned so that they are never exposed to the world - the significant event Kurisu's death is tied to. By making sure the documents were burned, she is saved for certain in the new "Steins Gate" timeline.

You could probably think of it this way - each significant event are the ripples caused by throwing a stone into the water and things that happen to people are the results of these ripples. Each wave can push, say a leave, further out.

When a second set of ripples is made, the waves interact with the last set so they alter how objects were supposed to have been affected previously.

And quick correction to Ruka's future with Okabe now that I can look back at the book... Dystopia occurs but that doesn't mean it's an unhappy future. When Okabe decided to abandon saving Mayuri, he also gave up on the development of the time machine and therefore, was no longer under the surveillance of SERN or considered a threat. He still dies in 2025 for one reason or another because, his death is still tied to the event when SERN completes the time machine thanks to their research progress.

Hopeful Death · 2011-07-01, 15:27

Does that mean theoretically that Mayuri's death could have been avoided if another event important to the time line occurred later after her death, and then they sent d-mail after that event occurred, back to before she dies?

Though unfortunately, according to Suzuha, 2010 was the last time that happened. And there weren't any events like that even up until 2036(and if SERN's absolute control lasts a while, there probably wouldn't be another opportunity for a long, long time after 2036 at that), in which Okabe would already be dead, so it's only theoretical and impossible to put into practice.

Well, things make sense now anyway.

Xcomp · 2011-07-01, 17:36

The 2010 event is exactly the one Mayuri's death is tied to, i.e. SERN discovering how to complete their time machine thanks to Okabe and Kurisu.

Even if Okarin managed to live until the dystopia event, D-Mail is too unpredictable for them to rely on. The best bet was for what happened - Suzuha using an actual time machine to retrieve the IBN5100 and erase traces of their accidental discovery.

erneiz_hyde · 2011-07-01, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeful Death

What? No it wasn't. The only world lines established in the game were alpha and beta, alpha being the SERN dystopia line and beta being the WW3 line. You spend the majority of the game on the alpha line without changing it. The minor .07% divergence with the d-mails aren't changing world lines. Suzuha states that divergence needs to reach at least 1% to change world lines.

My understanding is that every time Okabe activates his reading Steiner, a world line shifts. The major world line alpha and beta and the last one is special, but every small changes in the divergence meter is actually shifting world lines, though it may still within the realm of a bigger group of world-lines (like those alpha and beta world lines).

velocity7 · 2011-07-07, 10:25

Finally got my fandisc and started running through it.

Spoiler:

EDIT: Time to go over my review of the fandisc...

Spoiler:

To start with the scores I give are based on how well the story was told, as well as how well the romances played out. I'll start from the worst and end at the best one, so:

Ruka: Story: 3.5/10, Romance: 5/10
This was probably the most boring of the stories, and really just involves how Okarin interacts with Ruka on a romantic level, even though the two are guys in the fandisc timeline. Having said that, it was mostly a bore and didn't really intrigue me much. Maybe people who are into traps will like the route a bit more for some of the shenanigans, but for some reason I just felt like wanting to skip it. I was much more comfortable with the problems Ruka had to put up with in the main game, as well as the consequences of turning into a girl through the D-Mail, etc.

Moeka: Story: 5.5/10, Romance: 6/10
Moeka's route was okay, at least it gave another take on how Moeka ended up being taken care of by Tennouji; instead of the FB mask that he wore during the main timeline, he instead becomes a foster parent. Sure Moeka has a little bit of development, but most of it was predictable, and the route was rather short. The story in the main game was by far a lot better, but I guess it doesn't hurt to change her circumstances up a little bit.

Kurisu: Story: 6/10, Romance: 8/10
I was surprised that, for the main heroine of the original game, the story here was not exactly well thought out. Having said that, it was amusing to see Kurisu's yandere persona, even if it was for a brief moment, as well as the hilarity and chaos that ensued with the Future Gadgets that she built. I really wish though that they talked more about her father, and Okarin somehow getting the two to make up, etc. I know Okarin wanted to do that in the main game and never got around to getting that done, but it would have been especially nice, and would have made for great exposition.

Feiris: Story: 7.5/10, Romance: 6/10
Even more surprising, was that Feiris was given a more proper storyline compared to the main game's alternate ending. Instead she has to put up with 4C and his ambition to create a monopoly revolving around entertainment centres and maid cafes, but the interactions between all the characters were very interesting and even provided a scenario where everyone really stood out and gave an overall great performance. Kurisu's tsundora persona was also quite amusing.

Suzuha: Story: 8.5/10, Romance: 7.5/10
I actually didn't get to see much of Suzuha's backstory during the main game, so it was great to see that the story explored how Itaru and Amane Yuki (her mother) got to meet at Comiket, starting off as friends and eventually marrying. Yuki also becomes a prominent cosplayer... guess whose fault that is?

Having said that, some of the added drama, especially between Okarin and Itaru, did pretty well.

Mayuri: Story: 9/10, Romance: 10/10
Not my favorite character... but her story exceeded expectations, literally. She takes the cake for this fandisc, having probably the most fleshed out route and the best relationship with Okarin. Though a lot of it does seem a little bit fairytale-ish, it's very well thought out and lets Mayuri stand out on top of the rest of the crew. Considering that her ending in the main game was nothing more than simple exposition, I suppose it was only fair she got a truly astounding route in the fandisc.

velocity7 · 2011-07-19, 23:14

Xcomp · 2011-07-22, 14:47

More screenshots of the 8 bit version of the game on Famitsu:

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201107/21047028.html

Back to the NES days... When digital art like Huke's can't be expressed fully ^^;

Sheep_ · 2011-07-24, 20:31

So the 8-bit copy of S;G will have a new story instead of being a port of the normal VN.

TsundereCake · 2011-07-25, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by velocity7

even though the two are guys in the fandisc timeline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by velocity7

traps

Spoiler:

Sorry, I couldn't contain myself

Marina2 · 2011-07-28, 09:36

Just want to ask........will anime really able to go for true end in 24 eps?

There seems to be a lot of content to include with just 7 eps left. (unless they speed up story progression a bit)

Riga92 · 2011-07-28, 13:17

They are probably gonna cut down Ruka's chapter to also one episode, which would leave 6 episodes, and I believe that should be enough to animate the rest of S;G. Two episodes for Moeka's chapter, one episode for chapter 10, and two episodes for the true end seems most likely and should be able to do the job.

Sheep_ · 2011-07-28, 23:27

They most likely are going to cut Ruka's chapter to one ep, like they have with Suzuha's and Feris's chp's so far. Seeing as the anime is taking the true end, there really isn't a need to spend more than an ep per character route.

There's plenty of time to finish the series with a fairly good pace seeing as they've been good so far about it.

Forbin · 2011-08-01, 13:10

They could end it with the Mayurii ending instead of 'True Ending' and put that on the last disc?

TsundereCake · 2011-08-01, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin

They could end it with the Mayurii ending instead of 'True Ending' and put that on the last disc?

Why would they do that?

Forbin · 2011-08-02, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TsundereCake

Why would they do that?

Take make money of course

arson88 · 2011-08-06, 01:39

the vn seems so perfect to be converted into anime. But airing a Mayushi ending seems impossible. Episode 19 will be for Moeka, 20 and 21 for FB's appearance and back story. What else can be added into the remaining episodes? Or they will make a lot of omakes like Toaru Majutsu. Worst will be the studio waste the last episode for flash-backs like in Clannad.

2011-07-01, 00:25	Link #102
Hopeful Death Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: America Age: 38	What? No it wasn't. The only world lines established in the game were alpha and beta, alpha being the SERN dystopia line and beta being the WW3 line. You spend the majority of the game on the alpha line without changing it. The minor .07% divergence with the d-mails aren't changing world lines. Suzuha states that divergence needs to reach at least 1% to change world lines. Though I guess it's true that in Faris's dad's case, the 'cause' really was just as simple as 'which form of transportation he took'. And the reason why changing world lines saves Mayuri has nothing to do with jumping world lines itself, but just the fact that their 'cause' all happens to be "SERN creates a Dystopia"(or perhaps more directly, because SERN caught wind of them. Perhaps you could say that SERN catching wind of them= SERN creating a dystopia) and that jumping world lines is the only way to stop that, so by proxy, jumping world lines is the only way to save Mayuri(and Moeko etc.) Though it's kind of weird that everyone else's 'cause' is tied to the SERN dystopia thing and he's not. Especially since they go out of their way to state that he was the only casualty of his accidenty Just seemed to me like they were trying to imply that there was supposed to be something more to that, but I guess not. I mean, it WAS like 8 years ago before SERN caught notice of the group, even if he did own the IBN5100. Not to mention he wasn't nearly as connected to everyone else to begin with. Makes sense, after thinking about it. World lines and deaths are technically unrelated, but most of the deaths that oocur in the game are related to SERN which would incidentally require a world line jump. That put me under the illusion that preventing death=you must jump world lines, which is obviously wrong and stupid of me! Ok, in place of that, how about another question. How come at the end of Luca's route, they can just continue living their life happily without having to worry about SERN, without taking any further measures to stop them? Well I know I should be forgiving since it's just a little optional route ending, but that's kind of weird. Every other route at least provided an explanation. Last edited by Hopeful Death; 2011-07-01 at 01:05.

2011-07-01, 02:32	Link #104
Hopeful Death Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: America Age: 38	But Faris daddy's death was evaded the first time without changing any major events, right? All she did was get him to take the train instead of a plane and boom, he lived. Now I'm even more confused. Though I forgot about the year 2000 being important to the timeline as well(and that's around when his death happened, right.) I don't know why the 2000 bug makes it so that his death is undetermined. Maybe something similar to why Chris's death wasn't completely predetermined on July 28th? I think I remember Suzuha saying something about it also being an important moment in convergence and her dying and living being a 50/50 chance? Perhaps that's why tricking Okabe's POV was able to save her. And that if it was a normal predetermined death, she would have died regardless of tricking Okabe or not. But Okabe witnessing the death was a huge step in the world deciding upon her life or death... or something. But... no. Chris's life and death itself seems to be the big 'timeline changing event' in 2010 whereas Faris dad's death is just a death that takes place around the same time that another timeline changing event occurred so it wouldn't be comparable. Well whatever. God damn awesome game, that's all that matters Last edited by Hopeful Death; 2011-07-01 at 02:56.

2011-07-01, 07:35	Link #105
Xcomp Owe No Favours! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK, Glasgow	Well, Feyris' dad's death is tied to the Millenium Bug but another significant event, SERN completing the time machine, occurs. This later significant event alters the past and so Feyris' dad's death is no longer completely determined by the Millenium Bug event. That's why Feyris was able to change his fate using a D-Mail. In Kurisu's case, her life and death is important but it isn't the big significant event. Her death is actually tied to the survival of the time travel documents. To save her, Okabe had to do two things. First, trick himself and Nakabachi into thinking Kurisu was dead. This would have just temporarily saved Kurisu and she would have ended up dying in other ways like Mayuri but, this is crucial so that Okabe ends up having the strong will to help complete the time machine and in turn, allow him to carry this and the next step out. The next step was to make sure the time travel documents were burned so that they are never exposed to the world - the significant event Kurisu's death is tied to. By making sure the documents were burned, she is saved for certain in the new "Steins Gate" timeline. You could probably think of it this way - each significant event are the ripples caused by throwing a stone into the water and things that happen to people are the results of these ripples. Each wave can push, say a leave, further out. When a second set of ripples is made, the waves interact with the last set so they alter how objects were supposed to have been affected previously. And quick correction to Ruka's future with Okabe now that I can look back at the book... Dystopia occurs but that doesn't mean it's an unhappy future. When Okabe decided to abandon saving Mayuri, he also gave up on the development of the time machine and therefore, was no longer under the surveillance of SERN or considered a threat. He still dies in 2025 for one reason or another because, his death is still tied to the event when SERN completes the time machine thanks to their research progress. __________________ 5 Centimetres per Second Novel Translation

2011-07-01, 17:36	Link #107
Xcomp Owe No Favours! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK, Glasgow	The 2010 event is exactly the one Mayuri's death is tied to, i.e. SERN discovering how to complete their time machine thanks to Okabe and Kurisu. Even if Okarin managed to live until the dystopia event, D-Mail is too unpredictable for them to rely on. The best bet was for what happened - Suzuha using an actual time machine to retrieve the IBN5100 and erase traces of their accidental discovery. __________________ 5 Centimetres per Second Novel Translation

2011-07-07, 10:25	Link #109
velocity7 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Finally got my fandisc and started running through it. Spoiler: So far I've run through Suzuha and Moeka's routes... I actually liked Suzuha's route a lot. We get to learn her mother's name (Amane Yuki/阿万音由季), who happens to have the same voice actor, but we never get to see her face. Judging by how she looks from behind though, I guess she looks like Suzuha right now, except with long hair. Moeka's route was okay, but nowhere near as good. It had a bit of character development for Moeka but didn't delve deeply enough into her past or show much of an improvement over what she was at the beginning. Generally, it left a bit to be desired. The downer though is that none of these routes can have any relation to the main game (divergence ranges around 3.6%), but it still gives a good glimpse into character background that we didn't really get to see much of the main game, other than the main points. EDIT: Time to go over my review of the fandisc... Spoiler: To start with the scores I give are based on how well the story was told, as well as how well the romances played out. I'll start from the worst and end at the best one, so: Ruka: Story: 3.5/10, Romance: 5/10 This was probably the most boring of the stories, and really just involves how Okarin interacts with Ruka on a romantic level, even though the two are guys in the fandisc timeline. Having said that, it was mostly a bore and didn't really intrigue me much. Maybe people who are into traps will like the route a bit more for some of the shenanigans, but for some reason I just felt like wanting to skip it. I was much more comfortable with the problems Ruka had to put up with in the main game, as well as the consequences of turning into a girl through the D-Mail, etc. Moeka: Story: 5.5/10, Romance: 6/10 Moeka's route was okay, at least it gave another take on how Moeka ended up being taken care of by Tennouji; instead of the FB mask that he wore during the main timeline, he instead becomes a foster parent. Sure Moeka has a little bit of development, but most of it was predictable, and the route was rather short. The story in the main game was by far a lot better, but I guess it doesn't hurt to change her circumstances up a little bit. Kurisu: Story: 6/10, Romance: 8/10 I was surprised that, for the main heroine of the original game, the story here was not exactly well thought out. Having said that, it was amusing to see Kurisu's yandere persona, even if it was for a brief moment, as well as the hilarity and chaos that ensued with the Future Gadgets that she built. I really wish though that they talked more about her father, and Okarin somehow getting the two to make up, etc. I know Okarin wanted to do that in the main game and never got around to getting that done, but it would have been especially nice, and would have made for great exposition. Feiris: Story: 7.5/10, Romance: 6/10 Even more surprising, was that Feiris was given a more proper storyline compared to the main game's alternate ending. Instead she has to put up with 4C and his ambition to create a monopoly revolving around entertainment centres and maid cafes, but the interactions between all the characters were very interesting and even provided a scenario where everyone really stood out and gave an overall great performance. Kurisu's tsundora persona was also quite amusing. Suzuha: Story: 8.5/10, Romance: 7.5/10 I actually didn't get to see much of Suzuha's backstory during the main game, so it was great to see that the story explored how Itaru and Amane Yuki (her mother) got to meet at Comiket, starting off as friends and eventually marrying. Yuki also becomes a prominent cosplayer... guess whose fault that is? Having said that, some of the added drama, especially between Okarin and Itaru, did pretty well. Mayuri: Story: 9/10, Romance: 10/10 Not my favorite character... but her story exceeded expectations, literally. She takes the cake for this fandisc, having probably the most fleshed out route and the best relationship with Okarin. Though a lot of it does seem a little bit fairytale-ish, it's very well thought out and lets Mayuri stand out on top of the rest of the crew. Considering that her ending in the main game was nothing more than simple exposition, I suppose it was only fair she got a truly astounding route in the fandisc. __________________ NAOMI Blog Last edited by velocity7; 2011-07-09 at 01:17.

2011-07-01, 15:27	Link #106
Hopeful Death Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: America Age: 38	Does that mean theoretically that Mayuri's death could have been avoided if another event important to the time line occurred later after her death, and then they sent d-mail after that event occurred, back to before she dies? Though unfortunately, according to Suzuha, 2010 was the last time that happened. And there weren't any events like that even up until 2036(and if SERN's absolute control lasts a while, there probably wouldn't be another opportunity for a long, long time after 2036 at that), in which Okabe would already be dead, so it's only theoretical and impossible to put into practice. Well, things make sense now anyway.

2011-07-19, 23:14	Link #110
velocity7 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	__________________ NAOMI Blog

2011-07-22, 14:47	Link #111
Xcomp Owe No Favours! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK, Glasgow	More screenshots of the 8 bit version of the game on Famitsu: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201107/21047028.html Back to the NES days... When digital art like Huke's can't be expressed fully ^^; __________________ 5 Centimetres per Second Novel Translation

2011-07-24, 20:31	Link #112
Sheep_ Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	So the 8-bit copy of S;G will have a new story instead of being a port of the normal VN. __________________

2011-07-28, 09:36	Link #114
Marina2 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	Just want to ask........will anime really able to go for true end in 24 eps? There seems to be a lot of content to include with just 7 eps left. (unless they speed up story progression a bit) Last edited by Marina2; 2011-07-28 at 09:49.

2011-07-28, 13:17	Link #115
Riga92 The Spear of Destiny Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: A place where the stars cross. Age: 31	They are probably gonna cut down Ruka's chapter to also one episode, which would leave 6 episodes, and I believe that should be enough to animate the rest of S;G. Two episodes for Moeka's chapter, one episode for chapter 10, and two episodes for the true end seems most likely and should be able to do the job. __________________

2011-07-28, 23:27	Link #116
Sheep_ Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	They most likely are going to cut Ruka's chapter to one ep, like they have with Suzuha's and Feris's chp's so far. Seeing as the anime is taking the true end, there really isn't a need to spend more than an ep per character route. There's plenty of time to finish the series with a fairly good pace seeing as they've been good so far about it. __________________

2011-08-01, 13:10	Link #117
Forbin I'm a sucker for Harem Join Date: Aug 2004	They could end it with the Mayurii ending instead of 'True Ending' and put that on the last disc? __________________ My Favorite Anime Quotes Courtesy of Answerman of ANN: 1) By and Large...they are and ***. 2) What kind of girls do Anime Otaku males want? ..................... Female. 3) The odds are good, that the goods are odd.

2011-08-06, 01:39	Link #120
arson88 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007	the vn seems so perfect to be converted into anime. But airing a Mayushi ending seems impossible. Episode 19 will be for Moeka, 20 and 21 for FB's appearance and back story. What else can be added into the remaining episodes? Or they will make a lot of omakes like Toaru Majutsu. Worst will be the studio waste the last episode for flash-backs like in Clannad.