2011-02-05, 13:01 | Link #81 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Sailor Moon had the senshi being senshi no matter what happened, Luna didn't turn them into senshi nor made them fight, she just told them that if they didn't fight the world will go kablooi in a few months. Quote:
Senshi are Senshi by default. It has nothing to do with Luna. Beryl and others are trying to kill everyone, and senshi *choose* to fight ot save themselves and others. It is nothing alike. Quote:
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2011-02-05, 13:38 | Link #82 | ||||
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Look, I'm not sure you understand. Slaves have no rights and no choices by law. Dictionary.com lists it as: "a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant." The girls aren't wholly the property of Kyube. At best, they are an employee. Slaves are property, which the girls aren't. Is Kyoko a slave? Looks to me like she made her own choice and rather enjoys it. Slaves typically do not. Quote:
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2011-02-05, 15:46 | Link #83 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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You really think Kyoko is befriendable? It is like putting an absolute democrat and republican and lock them in a room. They are not going to convince each other no matter what. Kyubei making Kyoko believe Sayaka is stronger than her? I completely miss that. Would you care to point me to the episode scene? So what is this interest of himself? We still didn't know. Besides, what is wrong of Kyubei thinking about himself? Everyone in the world does that. Your boss likely to think about himself first, then the company, and only after that it is you. So your boss is evil? Quote:
Besides, we don't know why Kyoko do not ambush and 1 shot Sayaka. From what we saw, Kyoko loves to fight and bully people like Sayaka around rather than she is stupid. Kyubei probably knew that. So you are saying Sayaka should track down Kyoko and counter ambush her? When Kyoko does that you are screaming foul, when Sayaka does that it is OK? Doing so will only make their fight more fierce and make the situation much worse than it is now. To be honest, I believe that is the exact reason why Kyubei did not tell Sayaka about Kyoko - Kyoko will go all out in the very beginning (She only wants to put Sayaka in the hospital for a couple month at the beginning) if she was ambushed, kill Sayaka before Homura can interfere. And after that she will be mad at Kyubei.
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2011-02-05, 15:59 | Link #84 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Does your dad want you dead/wounded? Whether i actually use a sniper rife and shoot you is relevant. I know where you will be. I can choose to kill you. Why? Because your dad told me. Again does your dad want you dead/wounded? This is what i mean when i say whether Kyoko 1 shots Sayaka is irrelevant to Kyubei's motive Quote:
I am saying Sakaya COULD counter ambush her and thus your stand on Kyubei being neutral would work because he informed BOTH sides. Whether it would make the fight fierce or whatnot is irrelevant. A neutral person does not aid any side or he will aid both sides EQUALLY. An example: You're charged with murder. The judge in the case keeps refusing to allow you and your lawyer to defend yourself and keeps refusing any objections you raise against the public prosecutor. Is the judge NEUTRAL? |
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2011-02-05, 16:30 | Link #85 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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You are using the "normal" MG/ magical mascot relationship (closer than best buds) and apply it to the world of madoka magica, which the relationship of MG and Kyubei is simply not that close. For Kyubei=evil because he didn't tell Sayaka, it needs to be established that Kyubei is closer to Sayaka than Kyoko, which I do not see the evidence at all. Quote:
Using the same gang member theory: Once you were told about the gang's plan, you can no longer neutral. Being the whistle blower (telling the guy about to be beat up aka Sayaka) will make you the enemy of the first gang member aka Kyoko) The best thing you can do is to hide below your bed and pretend you didn't hear anything. If gang member Sayaka survive the attack you simply faint ignorance.
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2011-02-05, 16:48 | Link #86 | |
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Then there's the problem of Kyubei accompanying Kyoko when she spies on Sayaka. How does she know where/who Sayaka is? Who provided information? Again what does that say about motive? This excuse is false. As i already mentioned if he tells sayaka AND kyoko, neither can get the drop on the other = fairness. |
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2011-02-05, 17:20 | Link #87 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Senshi are senshi not because of luna or any kind of contract- they are senshi by birth (or even prior to birth). Quote:
The anime Sailor moon wimpified everything in it. If you want to talk about the anime, sure do so, but it's an adaptation. |
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2011-02-05, 17:26 | Link #88 | |||
Banned
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Every desire? They can still go shopping. They can still attend school. They can still take part in practically anything else they want to. Even if somehow they are forced to keep fighting witches, that takes take up all their time. You still aren't making a very good case for slave hood here, especially since...
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Seriously, the validity of a story does not rest on whether one person likes it or not. A story is a story simply because it is told. Ignore it if you like, but you don't get the luxury of ignoring a fact in a debate because it is inconvenient to you. |
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2011-02-05, 17:48 | Link #89 |
Keeper of the Silver Gate
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tokyo
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I think I'm going to have to go in the Kyuube is evil camp.
Yes, he's always creeped me out in the way he's always *there* in a crisis to suggest the girl contract with him. I'm wondering if at some point we'll see if QB is setting up the circumstances off-screen to create these *decision points* for girls like Madoka and Sayaka. I think the thing that sealed the deal for me is the opening scene in episode five and the contract ceremony between Kyuube and Sayaka: Spoiler for Episode 5 Kyuube-Sayaka contract Scene:
And yet, amidst all this ominous imagery Kyuube's voice is matter of fact. There seems to be a disconnect between the foreshadowing the animation is showing about this creature and the dialog from Kyuube. I think he's very careful in what he says to protect his true motivations (whatever they may be). But no, I don't think the cabbit is neutral or even good. |
2011-02-05, 18:51 | Link #90 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Kyoko: I will kill Sayaka so I will be the MG of this district. Kyubei: Even if you kill Sayaka didn't make you automatically the MG in this district as there is another MG (Homura) here. Gang member theory no. 2 Kyoko: I will kill Sayaka Kyubei: ...................... Kyoko: Where is this Sayaka now? Kyubei possible response 1: I know, but I am not telling you. Kyoko: How dare you not tell me? (beat up Kyubei) Kyubei possible response 2: I don't know (obviously lying) Kyoko: How dare you lie to me! Didn't you just contract her yesterday? (beat up Kyubei) Do you really believe Kyoko will just say "forget it, I am going home" if Kyubei didn't tell Kyoko about Sayaka's location? Unless Kyubei set up a arena and have Kyoko and Sayaka duel it out, it will never be neutral. Like you suggest, Sayaka will have the option to counter ambush if she was told about Kyoko. There is nothing more dangerous (and at a disadvantage) than someone who thinks they have the initiatives that they don't have. Kyoko thinks she has the initiatives, but Sayaka can easily stab her in the back. I believe you are suggesting that Kyubei tells Sayaka about Kyoko wanting to kill her, then go back and tell Kyoko that Sayaka knows about her? That is probably the only neutral way for Kyubei. However, Using gang theory again: If you tell both side their intention, do you honestly think they will thank you and leave you alone? Of course not, instead before both side fight each other, the first person they will kill is you - the two timing whistle blower.
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2011-02-06, 00:53 | Link #91 | ||
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Using your gang example, subsistute the person giving out the information as the gang boss who recruited the gang members. Big picture change eh? Member A: Boss i want to kill B Boss: Ok, B is over at XYZ street right now Member A: Thanks boss! Boss: Oh btw, i got another secret member in that area. He might attack you. Look out for him Member A: Wow boss, you love me! Quote:
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2011-02-06, 01:17 | Link #92 | |
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2011-02-06, 01:50 | Link #93 |
This was meaningless
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Age: 36
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Why didn't he just warn Sayaka to not go into that area where Kyoko was or tell Sayaka she would be better off moving to another city if there was someone willing to kill her stalking her?
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2011-02-06, 01:57 | Link #94 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Sayaka, I believe, still living with her family. Thus going to another city is not an option. (Kyoko, given her rough exterior, make you think she do not live with her family)
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2011-02-06, 02:49 | Link #95 | |
This was meaningless
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I believe Kyubey could have reasoned with Sayaka to simply stay at home and stay out of the witch hunting business by telling her a strong MG had arrived, even if she was determined to go any way. The issue here is that he didn't even try anything with Sayaka, but had told Kyoko (albiet a day later) that Homura, an unknown quantity, was in the area. If we assume he is a neutral entity only concerned about creating MGs to fight witches, I believe that he would have sensed Kyoko near the familiar and could have told Sayaka to just hunt elsewhere, as I don't believe it would be beneficial for him to lose a MG he just contracted if he were a neutral entity. |
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2011-02-06, 22:46 | Link #96 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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These debates on whether Kyubei is evil are very interesting.
On one hand, you have people arguing that he is based on how he's animated and the things he say. On the other hand, you have people arguing that he isn't based on some of his actions being better than other magical girl familiars. If this dichotomy is deliberate (and that's highly likely) then it's likely that the series will not be revealling the truth until the near end of the series, if even then. And anyone want to make up a list of the items that support each side of the argument? |
2011-02-07, 00:27 | Link #97 |
Banned
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Kyube is evil:
His facial expressions don't really change An overall feeling of "creepiness" His contracts amount to something like a death sentence He takes advantage of the situation to inform girls that he can contract His shadow when changing Sayaka He shows up when Sayaka is ready to make a wish He didn't tell Sayaka about Kyoko He didn't dissuade Kyoko, at least well enough (debatable, though) Kyube is simply amoral/no conclusive evidence yet: Compared to other magical animals, he gives girls the choice He hasn't manipulated anyone He's even told the girls not to make a contract until they've thought about it He's told them goodbye when they decided not to, and apologizes for getting them involved He hasn't lied That's about it. Everything else is just a guess, based on what you want to believe. |
2011-02-07, 00:53 | Link #98 | |
Keeper of the Silver Gate
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tokyo
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Kyube is simply amoral/no conclusive evidence yet: The speech to Madoka in the opening dream of episode one about not giving up and having the ability to change fate, the power to change things, could be seen as very positive and supportive (The rider being that a contract is needed to make it a reality). Last edited by Kawakanai; 2011-02-07 at 01:04. |
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2011-02-07, 00:59 | Link #99 | |
Me at work
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2011-02-07, 02:37 | Link #100 |
This was meaningless
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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I went and took down every appearance, action, and word QB has from the first two episodes. I try to describe the scene he is in, but I don't give conversational context--I'd hope people use the timestamps to fill that part in. I am sure this is unnecessarily verbose. Timestamps are taken from Nutbladder's subs.
Spoiler for QB in ep 1:
Spoiler for QB in ep 2:
I don't think we've seen so much dark imagery with Kyubey that he does not counter with stereotypical mascot fooling around and fidgeting sfx. They've been giving us cues in both directions, but it's been shifting toward more darker cues as of late. I'll see about doing something similar for ep 3-5, but from a brief rewatch--QB gasps and his body jerks a little (the first time we have seen him without his usual composure?) when Homura enters Charlotte's boss room in the nick of time, although I think someone probably mentioned this already on the episode thread. |
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