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Old 2019-02-14, 09:41   Link #4621
Keila
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Your fundamental basis for the actions being 'immersion breaking' as such is essentially stemming from a disbelief that if people actually tried/put in a little effort they'd be able to achieve an outcome that didn't require the least effort.


If you had a trained martial artist and some random highschool thug in a fight, chances are probably higher than not that the martial artist would completely school the thug. Not necessarily beat the crap out of them, just render their efforts ineffective.


As far as Soldiers (and training/capability go) there's nothing to suggest that the general numbers that make up each force are elite in any way. Granted on Kou's side (at least initially, though my memory might be fuzzy here) you had members of the Pardomshiha, which, by reputation were either loyal or better trained (I can't remember exactly). To reach a stalemate you'd only require equal capability/competency. Fundamentally you could just defend yourself until your opponent was exhausted (in which case neither of you would be in a position to really do anything to the other).

I don't recall at any point in the story it ever being suggested that they were 100% non-lethal, it's just that they limited any killing to those which were absolutely necessary.


History (or at least Greek/Roman Mythology at a minimum) has various instances instances of two armies meeting, the strongest representatives going at it and then the 'defeated' side yielding without any further bloodshed.

Fundamentally, it's not like Soldiers want to die. They accept that it may happen during the execution of their duties but it's not something they're actively seeking. At some point the compensation is just no longer worthwhile (not even considering that it's a civil war and that the opponents are fundamentally fighting royalty).

Abandoning ones post and losing forces due to attrition are very real concerns as far as organised groups are concerned.
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Old 2019-02-14, 10:22   Link #4622
XFire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
Your fundamental basis for the actions being 'immersion breaking' as such is essentially stemming from a disbelief that if people actually tried/put in a little effort they'd be able to achieve an outcome that didn't require the least effort.
No, my basis for this being immersion breaking is that this unrealistic outcome is achieved with zero negative consequences and is presented as being a net positive. The situation of Koutaro's army is explicitly better for him employing non-lethal methods despite the massive logistical problems involved and more than a few moral/ethical concerns from fridge logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
If you had a trained martial artist and some random highschool thug in a fight, chances are probably higher than not that the martial artist would completely school the thug. Not necessarily beat the crap out of them, just render their efforts ineffective.
Provided that the trained martial artist was both physically superior and at least some level of Master? You have at best a 30% chance of that outcome.

People practicing martial arts in perfectly controlled circumstances can still accidentally cause permanent lasting harm to each other by mistake.

In an actual fight the goal is always, always to put the other person down as fast as possible, not drag it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
As far as Soldiers (and training/capability go) there's nothing to suggest that the general numbers that make up each force are elite in any way. Granted on Kou's side (at least initially, though my memory might be fuzzy here) you had members of the Pardomshiha, which, by reputation were either loyal or better trained (I can't remember exactly). To reach a stalemate you'd only require equal capability/competency. Fundamentally you could just defend yourself until your opponent was exhausted (in which case neither of you would be in a position to really do anything to the other).
No.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding I think the author has hit upon as well.

Purposefully reaching a stalemate in a controlled scenario of a one v one duel requires a massive gap in competence in favor of the one trying to reach it. In a war setting it is basically impossible.

"Equal competence" does not mean you can perfectly cancel each other out, it means you have an equal shot at winning if you go all out. If one is deliberately avoiding any chance at ending the fight, they will lose 95% of the time. Being on the defensive is absolutely terrible in a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
I don't recall at any point in the story it ever being suggested that they were 100% non-lethal, it's just that they limited any killing to those which were absolutely necessary.
Koutaro is explicitly non-lethal 100% of the time. If he was just mostly showing mercy I wouldnt have a problem, but he doesnt kill anyone at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
History (or at least Greek/Roman Mythology at a minimum) has various instances instances of two armies meeting, the strongest representatives going at it and then the 'defeated' side yielding without any further bloodshed.
If Koutaro were doing this it'd be another thing entirely. He isnt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keila View Post
Fundamentally, it's not like Soldiers want to die. They accept that it may happen during the execution of their duties but it's not something they're actively seeking. At some point the compensation is just no longer worthwhile (not even considering that it's a civil war and that the opponents are fundamentally fighting royalty).

Abandoning ones post and losing forces due to attrition are very real concerns as far as organised groups are concerned.
Koutaro has actively reduced the fear of death for his enemies. He has lessened the advantage you are discussing.

His tactics would be adding psychological pressure to his side, not the enemy.

Again, my problem with this is not that Koutaro chose not to kill.

My problem is that there is no attempt to address the massive burden this would place on his army as a direct result of those actions.

The enemy would have less to fear from fighting him, reducing the intimidation factor that should have been his greatest enemy.

The people he doesnt kill can return to the fight on the enemies side at a later date, increasing the risk to his men.

He isn't employing his abilities to full effect, meaning the burden on his army increases proportionally to the level he holds back.

And on and on and on. The story is essentially saying "Koutaro did a good thing therefore he gets a good result" without actually addressing everything that would have to happen to achieve that outcome.
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Old 2019-02-14, 11:38   Link #4623
Lex79
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I guess, since this isn't a senki, the author never had as a priority to write a realistic depiction of warfare, only to give us an idealized tale of a hero that triumphed against evil not only using power but also kindness anche chivalry. It was also a civil war, so him being compassionate also had the added benefit to make the enemy soldiers questioning if they were fighting for the right side, qhen they compared him to their ruthless superiors.Maybe not much plausible, but given the genre of this series I can't fault the author for this depiction.
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Old 2019-02-27, 07:12   Link #4624
sierra117
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anyway, volume 31 colored illustrations are here
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i always know that Clan is flat, but never thought she is that flaaaaat
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look like Ruth's grudge against beetle still hasn't vanished :heh
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Limited edition with CD Drama.
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Old 2019-02-28, 14:06   Link #4625
Rinvelt
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Join Date: Jul 2016
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So, spoiler time, I guess?

Nothing much, but if you're interested:
Spoiler for Episode Harumi:


Will listen to the Drama CD in my bed tonight, so might post something tomorrow.

By the way, there's going to be another Drama CD, and you can choose for who by voting here:
https://bookwalker.jp/ex/feature/rokujoma-10year/ (need to create a BookWalker account)

And if they sell well, there'll be yet another Drama CD after that (and perhaps more).

Last edited by Rinvelt; 2019-02-28 at 14:17.
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Old 2019-02-28, 19:09   Link #4626
sierra117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinvelt View Post
So, spoiler time, I guess?

Nothing much, but if you're interested:
Spoiler for Episode Harumi:


Will listen to the Drama CD in my bed tonight, so might post something tomorrow.

By the way, there's going to be another Drama CD, and you can choose for who by voting here:
https://bookwalker.jp/ex/feature/rokujoma-10year/ (need to create a BookWalker account)

And if they sell well, there'll be yet another Drama CD after that (and perhaps more).
What about other SS?
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“If you were a logical person with refinement then it was obvious to prefer matureness over immatureness, abundance over lacking. Lolita complex is a mental illness, everyone. I hope you are able to go to your nearest mental hospital and get a suicide check-up.”
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Old 2019-03-01, 04:27   Link #4627
Rinvelt
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^Already read the hercules more than a year ago, so didn't bother rereading them.

Now, for the drama CD, well, it's really cute and fun, but illogical from a story standpoint.

Won't bother doing a summary, but basically:
Spoiler:


So more than Alaia Route, it's more Alaia added to the harem.

Anyway, was pretty fun. Voices changed a little and I was suprised by Maki's voice (because, well, she only appears in the anime, so didn't hear her voice since then, contrary to BK Drama CD like the others), but still pretty nice to hear them all again!
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Old 2019-03-01, 10:23   Link #4628
Lex79
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Looks wonderful, I hope I'll be able to read a transcription one day.
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