2009-06-21, 07:20 | Link #181 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Sacrafice in the heat of battle or sacraficing oneself's sanity an entirely different thing. Nina has stated at the Din Dee arc that she does everything in her power to protect others but if it's possible not while sacraficing herself. She's reckless but not sucidial(at least from the time the story's started...her hometown and the previous intercity match showed it a bit other way...but probably she values more her honor than her life).
And about the "remedy": As Ultramarinus said previously: Leerin don't know about the Haikizokou's danger much or that her treatment was just temporaly and Nina has no knownledge about how the Goat got repressed. So there's not much place to argue about that. |
2009-06-21, 07:25 | Link #182 |
Disputatio exaro nex
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turkey
Age: 40
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TK, yes I read that, but ep 5 was a worse comes to worst situation as well and you deemed refusing to fight free will there. That wasn't even a sacrifice, Felli just needed to play walkie-talkie behind city walls as usual. That wasn't free will or exercising the right to live, she had no risk to her life and it was her job to fight.
Fighting =/= Dying But you claim that Nina needs to sacrifice her life willingly if something similar happens. If you really hold sitting idle safe and sound while the city gets destroyed the same with sacrificing life just because of a possession by an entity against your will, you shouldn't accuse me of double standards. As much as I criticized Felli and defended Nina, I never applied different standards on them. I judge them based on their situations, motivations and actions. I already have quite a bit of posts lying around and I very much doubt anyone could point out a double standard from among them. |
2009-06-21, 07:30 | Link #183 |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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One must fight in order to save the city, while one must die in order to save the city. Same goal in the end. Similar type of refusal to exercise them. One is based on ‘doesn’t want to be used’ while one is based on ‘doesn’t want to die or in veggie state’.
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2009-06-21, 12:35 | Link #186 |
Disputatio exaro nex
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turkey
Age: 40
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Sorry if it came across so, I liked the discussion but it feels sour if it grows to look futile. I don't expect to necessarily change opinions but at the very least we should apply the same standards while exchanging views.
I just wanted to drop some notes from the final episode regarding our earlier discussion BTW: - Nina wishes Layfon to suit himself, he has her complete trust. - Layfon acknowledges Nina's lecture on ep 5, he decides to stop running and protect the people. - Felli acknowledges Nina as well, that they fight with others for others. So they came to accept their responsibility and Nina is relieved with confidence of that now. That was what I have been expecting all along, proved to be good development at the end. |
2009-06-21, 18:41 | Link #187 | |
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2009-06-21, 19:06 | Link #188 |
Disputatio exaro nex
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turkey
Age: 40
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It felt like Nina getting all BANZAI! as Layfon finally is going full force without any remorse, (she wants him to wield the blade just the previous scene) that was what I could make out of it anyway. Gotta say that was kinda weird though.
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2009-06-23, 23:52 | Link #191 |
Disputatio exaro nex
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turkey
Age: 40
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Maybe they will be investing more time into the characters backgrounds and promote their behavior via side-stories, something like the story from the same named manga would be nice to have. It could make people better understand why she's always going full force then. Don't touch the visuals though, she's already the best-looking female of the show without trying. Maybe that's even helping.
The goat issue is a critical point though, she was affected the most by the unique ending. They strayed too far by not having the goat returned before the end. So they should be giving it back ASAP or else the story can get totally messed up. Oh and have Myath come back to beat them up so that Nina can fulfill her character's objective and then continue progressing with other matters. |
2009-06-24, 12:04 | Link #192 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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yeah, no need to change Nina's character design...she's very charming that way...
definitely power improvement and more character development...oh and i'd like to see the other side of her...like what i heard is included in the novel...the bear and ferret issues... |
2009-07-04, 08:52 | Link #194 | |
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In the light novel it's another thing. If I remember well Nina "managed to control" the Goat by coming to an agreement with it. So she isn't control it, but cooperate with it. In terms of power she's strong but unrefined. Perhaps the level of Haikizokou or HB-s a whole new level of strenght. It's unfair to compare her with such "monsters". Everyone who beat her either a person with monstrous potential or someone with more training and experience behind his back. For example in a Haia-Nina comparsion the causes of difference in power is obvious: -Haia is like a son of a pro wrestler. He trained that way and from a great teacher since birth. He has more and better training, experience with filth monsters and even a better weapon. -Nina's like a street fighter who's learnt boxing for few years.She's trained in MA, but only as a "hobby" and she probably had to learn a new form of MA in Zuellni when she's arrived. And perhaps she has no experience with FM. (other thing that most of the shounen mangas tend to ignore theese facts and thenewcommer protagonists beats experienced fighters after only a short time of effort.) In short Nina's talented, but not the top fighter. She has other qualities that makes her special later(Haikizokou and her relation with the Electronic Fairies), but the Anime fails to show that I think. |
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2009-07-04, 09:32 | Link #195 |
Disputatio exaro nex
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Turkey
Age: 40
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Pretty detailed and true explanation there. It's apparent that some people regard characters based on power (sorry but quite the dumb approach) or just find an excuse to strike back at a character due to their previous, other misgivings.
I also think that HB users have some kind of gift, possibly immense kei potential. Because we see them getting Layfon in even as a little kid and then, training. He wasn't what he became when they decided to get him. That's why I don't think that people can join HB ranks with mere training, it's kind of a Jedi recruitment. You either have it from birth or you don't. Also the queen had disregarded their grand tournament as just winning that doesn't cut it. IIRC Felli also received an invitation in LN recently, that's another supporting evidence for my theory. They'll get the person no matter the motivation or lack of it is, that's why they end up with mostly eccentric members, some even leaning to evil. So it's not fair to compare Nina with HB users and Psyharden is also a special school, more akin to those Japanese dojos, even down to using katanas. Academy city martial artists on the other hand are mostly regular army people, they train hard, drill and compete but that wouldn't warrant going toe to toe against a Jedi or samurai. |
2009-07-04, 10:25 | Link #196 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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I have to disagree with part of willyvereb comparison: Nina's not a street fighter she's a fully trained soldier (and she was before setting foot on Zuellini). So the only difference between Nina and Haia is the FM fighting experience and maybe the skills usage (Haia learned FM fighting skills, while Nina's skills seem to be oriented toward defending against many humans). Although, I haven't read novel Haia yet.
Also, the anime pretty much made Haia more powerful then powered up Savaris by giving him a bigger flashier fight against Layfon, which make no sense. The anime seems to have powered up Layfon quite a bit, while depowering everybody else when it suited them. So deciding if Nina's is weak or not is complicated. So far in the novel, I would say that she is one of the most powerful in Zuellini. Unfortunately, the anime didn't bother explaining anything about MA, like the difference between internal and external kei or gave much of the characters background information available in the novels. Personally, I'm waiting to read the other translated novels to see just how much the anime changed in the power scale. |
2009-07-04, 12:00 | Link #197 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Nina's far from fully trained. She's just in her 3rd year of MA training. And all MA training she's got back in Rigzarion much like the noble's fencing lessons. Not to mention I said comprassion. Haia isn't a boxer, you know. It's just that he got over the same training as Layfon until he's got the HB and fought with many FM. It means an extreme difference in potential if after all that he isn't stronger than Nina.
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2009-07-04, 15:33 | Link #198 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Spoiler for Spoilers for vol. 10:
Nina's problems are (confirmed after 1 translated volume):
Actually, analyzing Nina's fighting skill she's a close range 1vsmany fighters meant to defend an area. Perfect for Intercity matches, but doesn't work well against 20 feet tall monsters though. |
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2009-07-04, 15:38 | Link #199 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Thanks the information. I sure forgot the thing about her weapons. But I don't get it. Why she's fighting with inferior weapon? Maybe anything other than those rods are easily breaks from her swings? Or something like that? Because if she wants to be stronger then using a good weapon is logical, right?
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2009-07-04, 15:56 | Link #200 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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I can only speculate about it though: Training reasons
Fighting reasons
Personality:
Maybe, if we are lucky, we will get the answer in the novels. |
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