(L) Monogatari Series Light Novel discussion

[Romanticide]

Is Maaya actually allowed to sing as her characters? I heard she wasn't, but i wasn't sure if that was a rumor or not.

Also, when does Shinobu allow Koyomi to use Kokorowatari?

[zato_1one]

In Nise episode 3, how come Senjougahara know about Hachikuji's gag? She shouldn't see Hachikuji, right? By the way, can someone spoil about reasons why Senjougahara has to listen to Hanekawa? I've already forgotten. -0-

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by omimon

Yes and no. He was totally alright with being a loner and having no friends.

Even so, everything he has now is way better than being a loner. Awsome girlfriend, awsome perverted friend, awsome best friend (well, had anyway)
And that wouldn't do for a very interesting story.
No story, no toothbrush.

Originally Posted by zato_1one

In Nise episode 3, how come Senjougahara know about Hachikuji's gag? She shouldn't see Hachikuji, right? By the way, can someone spoil about reasons why Senjougahara has to listen to Hanekawa? I've already forgotten. -0-

Wasn't it because she asked Hanekawa's help in order to behave more normaly? But that only actually happened after she faced Kaiki.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by omimon

Yes and no. He was totally alright with being a loner and having no friends.

That was in your translation The fact he resorted to lie to Hanekawa and say that "if you make friends your strength as a human will decrease" to cover it up shows that he wasn't happy with his situation.

Originally Posted by zato_1one

In Nise episode 3, how come Senjougahara know about Hachikuji's gag? She shouldn't see Hachikuji, right?

That's just metahumor. The same reason for which Senjougahara is able to tell how many girls Araragi had met that day.

By the way, can someone spoil about reasons why Senjougahara has to listen to Hanekawa? I've already forgotten. -0-

Otherwise Hanekawa would have started dating Araragi.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Otherwise Hanekawa would have started dating Araragi.

Can you expand on that?

Hanekawa always striked me as a more passive character, so my initial guess is that she used that as a threat because she knows that Senjougahara would take it 100% seriously.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Aleister

Can you expand on that?

As in "stealing her boyfriend".

Hanekawa always striked me as a more passive character, so my initial guess is that she used that as a threat because she knows that Senjougahara would take it 100% seriously.

She is not passive at all. I don't know where you got that idea

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

As in "stealing her boyfriend".

Yeah, I got that much.

So Hanekawa was like 'If you want my help you have to do everything I say or else I'll steal Araragi' and Senjougahara though she would be able to pull it off, no problem?

What I specifically would like to know is:
Does Araragi knows about the deal, and if so what does he think of it? This isn't a capture the flag match.
What does 'everything' imply, if it's really everything or just related to Hane helping Gahara with behaving more normally?
Would Hanekawa abuse her power over Senjougahara?
Was she completely serious about it, or did she thought that since it would be hard for Gahara to do certain things, she used a one hit kill?
Was it somekind of gamble, was she expecting her to fail?
How long does it go on for?

Looking back passive is definitely the wrong word. Good person. Non-backstabbing. Let me rephrase.
Does she have the kind of personality where she would abuse her power, use it to play around with Gahara, does she like having it, would she use it to manipulate her, OR, did she really want to help her and just wanted to make sure Gahara would go though with it to the end? In the events that I know about in Neko, I am under the impression that they became good friends.

And also, of course, if the stealing was played straight or if it's related to that feeling, already shared by Kanbaru and Hachikuji, that Araragi would end up with Hanekawa?

It's just that the condition itself strikes me as odd. If she wanted Araragi, she could try and take him and the deal wouldn't make sense because even if Gahara failed, she would still be on Hanekawa's way. The other way around, she would be more interested in screwing with Gahara than on Araragi, if things were oh so linear.

[Shikijin]

Hanekawa simply couldn't allow Senjougahara to detain Araragi indefinitively. Senjougahara also was supposed to "rehabilitate" and become a normal person. Hanekawa is no tyrant, she just does what is right.

Anyway, I'm rereading the book as episodes air. This was what I remembered as of now, next week I will tell you something more detailed

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Hanekawa simply couldn't allow Senjougahara to detain Araragi indefinitively. Senjougahara also was supposed to "rehabilitate" and become a normal person. Hanekawa is no tyrant, she just does what is right.

Anyway, I'm rereading the book as episodes air. This was what I remembered as of now, next week I will tell you something more detailed

But i assume the deal itself was made before he was detained.

Assuming she said to Senjougahara 'This isn't what a normal person would do, this isn't what you are supposed to do, so let him go and apologize.', yeah, I agree with you, that is one step in the right direction, being normal. A slap on the wrist is in order.

But why that specific condition ,'stealing'? I mean, if Gahara-san took that 100% seriously and felt menaced, then Hanekawa would be able to just dangle the axe whenever she wanted, for whatever reasons. I know, I know, she is a good person which leads me to believe that Hanekawa gave her that condition so that she would make sure she wouldn't fail. That way, such a threat couldn't be used again.

What goes through my mind is:
If Hanekawa decided to go all out, nothing could stop her. Not true aparently because she ended up being rejected. So, the condition makes no sense. If it was something like 'Stand out of my way' it still wouldn't make sense, because of the first condition, in which Senjougahara isn't seen as an obstacle. Not true aparently because she ended up being rejected. So I can't think of it as being an agressive move on Hanekawa's side to conquer the Araragi flag.



On a different note.
In Shiro, Hanekawa says something like, Senjougahara is better, less poisonous. But part of her rehabilitation is not rehabilitation at all, but that she got cuter. Since Araragi only sees the cute side, it means that he thinks that she is more normal or rehabilitated than she actually is, which may be why Kaiki also thinks that she still needs Araragi's help. Hanekawa then follows with 'I am in no hurry to tell him.' My question is, why is that?



On a different note.
To Omimon and Shikijin, I see on the Baka-Tsuki page that there are 5 translators on active status and 1 editor also on active, on the project but since NaweG doesn't have a page, I was wondering, are you in need of editors for that particular project?

[zato_1one]

Yes. That's kind of confusing. I think that Hanekawa had already confessed to Araragi (in Neko?) but she got rejected. So, why is she still a threat to steal Araragi? Except that Senjougahara doesn't know about this and Hanekawa just blackmail her. Also, didn't it mean that Hanekawa break her promise if she confessed to Araragi?

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Yes. That's kind of confusing. I think that Hanekawa had already confessed to Araragi (in Neko?) but she got rejected. So, why is she still a threat to steal Araragi? Except that Senjougahara doesn't know about this and Hanekawa just blackmail her. Also, didn't it mean that Hanekawa break her promise if she confessed to Araragi?

In Neko Shiro, I believe. She is politely rejected. I am not sure if it's because:
He loves Senjougahara more than her. (Although he had concluded that what he felt was not love (but in a way above it) )
He doesn't like her that way.

Shinobu, Hanekawa and Senjougahara are the most important people to him (other than family), but on three different fields.
Unfortunately for Hanekawa, she is on the wrong one.

I'd say Senjougahara believed her because of that general feeling that Hanekawa would be the one to end up with Araragi, and because she is afraid that he will leave her. That may even be the greater part of why she wants to rehabilitate. Hanekawa is described by Araragi as a good person, so I don't think it's blackmail, I'm still trying to get the reason, but I think Shikijin will only tell us next week.

Funny thing is, and both Gahara and Hane know this, is that things would've been a lot different is Hanekawa had let Araragi help her more before Golden Week. In a way, it was Hanekawa's own strenght that allowed her to be very important to Araragi, but also the reason why he came to love Senjougahara.
He reflects that Hane gave him the ability to love, and he is willing to give his life for her.
But when it comes to the romantic aspects, something Hane also wants, it was Senhougahara that won that place in his heart.

That aspect of him, that ability to separate stuff, is very confusing to me because it's not something I'm sure I can understand.
The thing that he applies to everyone is that he wants to protect.

Oh god I hate my ability to obsess so quickly.

[Shikijin]

Neko Shiro happens only later. When Hanekawa proposed she knew she would have been rejected. She just wanted to do things properly. In Nise between Araragi and Senjougahara things were still in earlier stages though. And Hanekawa could be very convincing if she really wanted.

When I'll read the chapter again maybe it could turn out it was only a bluff, maybe not

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Neko Shiro happens only later. When Hanekawa proposed she knew she would have been rejected. She just wanted to do things properly. In Nise between Araragi and Senjougahara things were still in earlier stages though. And Hanekawa could be very convincing if she really wanted.

When I'll read the chapter again maybe it could turn out it was only a bluff, maybe not

Indeed. When the deal was struck, Araragi hadn't even made the "I love you speech" to Senjougahara, although he had already admited to Black that she was the one he loved.

I don't know if Hanekawa could convince Araragi, but she is good at reading people and could play Senjougahara's insecurities. And in Nise they were dating for what, 2 months?

Wait, so when she confessed she was - I think the expression is - going through the motions so that she could move forward (in whatever direction that might be) properly?

[omimon]

Okay, okay, I think you guys are making this more complicated than it should be. Hanekawa loves him but she believes he and Hitagi makes a better couple. I don't believe she have any intention to break them up. Everybody thinks he and Hanekawa would be better together but not Hanekawa.

As for Araragi having a hero's syndrome, I would disagree. What he actually has is low self-esteem. He saves people because he believes their lives are worth than his. He saves Shinobu because of this, and it was Kanbaru back in Snake who taught him his life is meanful and he is important to others.

As for him being a loner didn't he say that he didn't want to have friends because he didn't want to worry about them when they are hurt? I mean I remember him partically saying he finds having friends troublesome. Isn't the fact that he made zero friends in the first two years of high school prove if this?

As a side note, one thing I started wondering was why was Kaiki so "worried" about Hitagi. I think it's because she actually reminds him of Kanbaru's mom. We don't know a lot about her but it might also explain why Kanbaru likes her. It's possible that deep down she saw a mother figure in Hitagi and she wanted the mother that she never had. BTW I have zero evidence to back myself up on this, it is just me guessing.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by omimon

As a side note, one thing I started wondering was why was Kaiki so "worried" about Hitagi. I think it's because she actually reminds him of Kanbaru's mom. We don't know a lot about her but it might also explain why Kanbaru likes her. It's possible that deep down she saw a mother figure in Hitagi and she wanted the mother that she never had. BTW I have zero evidence to back myself up on this, it is just me guessing.

Do the novels provide a description, physical or otherwise, of her mother?
But if that were true, I don't think that she would try to take the romance route with Gahara. Of course this is based on my keen understanding of lesbian relationships.
And wasn't Kaiki's "official" excuse to himself that he was doing it for Kanbaru? I'm guessing his reasoning was "By saving her friend, I'm helping her, doing her a favor".
And if Kaiki is willing to be nice only to Kanbaru since he loved her mother, wouldn't there be somekind or subtle clue or reference, maybe even something small to let people wonder, in his interactions with Gahara?

And if i was firing blind, now I'm just being stupid, but after a volume with the highlight of the interactions between Senhougahara and Kaiki, i don't think there's a good chance of them ever having another substancial meeting.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by omimon

Okay, okay, I think you guys are making this more complicated than it should be. Hanekawa loves him but she believes he and Hitagi makes a better couple. I don't believe she have any intention to break them up. Everybody thinks he and Hanekawa would be better together but not Hanekawa.

Hanekawa is loyal to her principles, so she would never try to steal a boyfriend. Then again, I think Hanekawa say those things because she actually expected Senjougahara to comply.

As for him being a loner didn't he say that he didn't want to have friends because he didn't want to worry about them when they are hurt? I mean I remember him partically saying he finds having friends troublesome. Isn't the fact that he made zero friends in the first two years of high school prove if this?

"It is odd that you are easy to talk with, yet you don't have friends. Why don't you make any?"

She asked me directly.

Probably not meaning any harm.

I understand that at least.

It's not that I don't make any friend, I just can't make any, but I hesitated to give a direct answer.

That's why ―― that time, I answered like this.

"If you make friends, your strength as a human will decrease"

"......Eh?"

Hanekawa ―― gave me a blank face.

"I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you mean"

"Well........ you see, it's kinda like this"

Oh crap.

I tried to say something cool, but I don't know how to continue.

"You see, if I had friends, I'd have to worry about them, right? If my friends get hurt, even I would, and if they were sad, then I too would be sad. Putting it that way, these weak points build up. As a human I would grow weaker"

As a side note, one thing I started wondering was why was Kaiki so "worried" about Hitagi. I think it's because she actually reminds him of Kanbaru's mom. We don't know a lot about her but it might also explain why Kanbaru likes her. It's possible that deep down she saw a mother figure in Hitagi and she wanted the mother that she never had. BTW I have zero evidence to back myself up on this, it is just me guessing.

No, I certainly don't think that a teen like Senjougahara would make him think of a mother figure. Maybe their personalities had something similar.

Using psychiatric definitions, Kaiki would be a psychopath while Senjougahara was a paranoid. Those two disorders are kind of similar, both with distrust and suspicion of others.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

No, I certainly don't think that a teen like Senjougahara would make him think of a mother figure. Maybe their personalities had something similar.

Using psychiatric definitions, Kaiki would be a psychopath while Senjougahara was a paranoid. Those two disorders are kind of similar, both with distrust and suspicion of others.

I think Omimon was saying a mother figure from Kanbaru's POV, but yeah, with someone so young, I don't know if it would make sense.
And in Kaiki's case, is there some kind of timeline to his life? Maybe Senjougahara reminded him of Gaen when she was younger, if that was the case. But then again, he does see her as a child, so I think we're grasping at straws.

And I always took Gahara as anti-social, at least before Nise, I know little of it afterwards, more than paranoid.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Neko Shiro happens only later. When Hanekawa proposed she knew she would have been rejected. She just wanted to do things properly. In Nise between Araragi and Senjougahara things were still in earlier stages though. And Hanekawa could be very convincing if she really wanted.

When I'll read the chapter again maybe it could turn out it was only a bluff, maybe not

I still consider that she broke her promise with Senjougahara. I'd say that she still had some hope inside or else she wouldn't cry that much. When did Senjougahara make a promise with Hanekawa anyway? I really confuse with the timeline. LOL

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I still consider that she broke her promise with Senjougahara. I'd say that she still had some hope inside or else she wouldn't cry that much. When did Senjougahara make a promise with Hanekawa anyway? I really confuse with the timeline. LOL

Somewhere in between Bake and Nise. I think there's at least a couple of months in between.

She most likely confessed knowing fully that it would fail, but actually going through with it is the only way to move on, or else it would be denial, if you don't try you don't fail. Of course she cried, she was rejected by the guy she loves, hope or no hope.

And in strict terms, she didn't break her promise. If nothing else, it was with her and Araragi's help that Senjougahara faced Kaiki and got somewhat better.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Reading Otorimonogatari and.....

Is Nadeko really evil or just very very vulnerable inside....