2009-10-01, 23:37 | Link #1022 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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2009-10-02, 02:35 | Link #1023 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I can buy George and Shannon's love being real, I'm just very suspicious of it. And it's also possible it's one-sided, but it's not exactly clear which direction. |
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2009-10-02, 03:56 | Link #1024 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I don't think they necessarily have to believe in the Golden Land. If they remember the events of the previous games, and they are aware of these continuous chains of massacres, then I think it'd be natural for them to just accept these things, and become somewhat stoic. Just take a look at Rika, who basically developed a bitter personality.
What I found odd was not that Shannon and Kanon weren't grieving George's and Jessica's death, but the fact that they (at least Shannon) seemed to be having a good time after those 2 died. In addition to Battler's odd behaviour when speaking about Ange's condition, these situations lead me to believe that the Game Master may be able to affect to some extent the pieces' behaviour. That, or those particular scenes were a lie.
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2009-10-02, 07:59 | Link #1025 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In chess you can control pieces and move them according to your will. However you can't make a piece move in a way that it's not possible for them to move. For example you can move a rook in a straight line, but you can't move it diagonally. Dlanor didn't refute the fact that it was Lambda moving Battler, what she meat to say was: even if it was Lambda that made "you" fight me, the reason you didn't finish me off was because you as piece (because of your moral stands) couldn't do that. Quote:
It's not like there is that much difference in terms of skill writing. From one side you have a fictional world bound to precise rules, from the other side you have a world taken out from an infinite number of possible realities, and if that wasn't enough there's even a thick layer of fantasy covering it. I really can't see it is all that different. Your interpretation is not totally free from the "it is all made up" problem (only partially, and that "partially" becomes thin and thinner each new episode), and my interpretation isn't completely engulfed by it because Beatrice is using a well defined correspondence with the real world. As a final note, you are also acknowledging the fact that Beatrice can create fictional worlds, so from Beatrice's perspective why should she bother finding real kakera? What's the point in looking for real alternative scenarios only to cover them with fiction? Isn't it more simple to create them directly? Why would Beatrice do so? Quote:
I don't think that Kanon and Shannon actually remember.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-10-02 at 08:26. |
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2009-10-02, 08:23 | Link #1026 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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However, if that's true then why wouldn't they be more active in trying to stop the murders from occuring in the first place? Answers to that could be that they are involved with the murders somehow or they feel like Rika did sometimes that it's all useless. Given Krauss's power level over 9000, judo George, and Jessica's fists of fury I would have to agree that some of the stuff in episode 4 was nonsense.
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2009-10-02, 08:30 | Link #1027 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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There is a high chance that the underground cell "Kyrie's group" was imprisoned inside was in fact part of the metaworld. This would explain why Kanon and Shannon remember past games.
The scenes were you see Shannon and Kanon fighting against the witch or accepting their death are also magic scenes, so they might not have happened at all in the real world.
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2009-10-02, 10:18 | Link #1028 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I don't think it's necessary that they remember past worlds at all. Based on the ura tea party we know that the (initial) deaths of Krauss, Genji, and the cousins were faked. If Shannon and Kanon were in on it, then it could be that as far as they know, everyone is still alive.
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2009-10-02, 11:45 | Link #1029 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Spoiler for size:
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2009-10-02, 13:29 | Link #1030 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Anyway, regarding the magic scenes, is it okay to just brush them off? I'm sure we are not supposed to take them at face value, but isn't it possible they may carry some meaning?
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2009-10-02, 14:11 | Link #1031 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Seriously? In EP 2, before Shannon goes to give Suit-Beato her dinner, Kanon basically cries and yells at Shannon for wanting to accept George's proposal, saying that if she does so then she'll make them both lose their chance at getting to the 10th twilight and going to the golden land. Kanon doesn't want to be furniture and believing that Beatrice will absolve that in the Golden Land when the ceremony is over is his only grace and chance at being with Jessica.
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2009-10-02, 14:18 | Link #1032 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well neither do I for mine, and it's not like I have 100% faith in it. But I tell you why I'd rather go with mine right now. It's the same reason you'd rather stick with your, I don't like the alternative.
I don't like the idea that Beatrice can chose kakera the same way Bernkastel did in Higurashi. I don't like the idea that the same theory behind the "time loop" will be used in Umineko as well (lack of originality imho). I find more disturbing the idea that the worlds we have been shown are 10% real and 90% false than the idea that they are completely false. It was reasonable when the falsehood were relegated to the magic scene. It was still reasonable when the falsehood also included non magic scenes as long as it was a fifty-fifty scenario. But now that little assumption of "reality" looks kinda pathetic to me. If someone tells me a story and says it is a fictional story, no problem with that. If someone tells me a story and says it is a real story, no problem with that as long as it's really real. If someone tells me a story and says it's partially true and partially false. No problem with that either. It is challenging and fun to discern the truths from lies. But if I found out that 90% of that story is false, I have a problem. It pisses me. It is impossible to find out that 10% and it's kinda pointless. It is better to treat the whole story as fake at that point. If Ryukishi's intention was to make a story the way you describe it, then imho he went way too far with the lies. I cannot accept the world of Ep5 as real anymore. For the same reason Erika couldn't accept that a man can jump from the third floor like that, that's the only time where I truly empathized with her. And it is not like it was totally impossible. Certainly not impossible for someone like the witch of miracles. However I can't like scenarios that are grounded on events that are almost impossible to happen. If Erika and all that concerns her really happened, I'm not going to like them. While reading ep5 I knew already that if Ryukishi really was going to tell me that Battler jumped from the third floor like I wouldn't have never approved it. In the end Ryukishi didn't betray my expectations, so I have faith he won't do that in the case of Erika's lame story either. Quote:
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What I think is that there is one world where the Rokkenjima incident takes place. I don't know all the details but I guess the most important parts, like the persons involved, the general situation, the culprit and his reasons are set in stone. The "games" then are no different than the letters Beatrice herself wrote. The story in those letters didn't really happen, they were completely fictional, they weren't narration of what happened in alternate realities (unless there's magic at work). In those letters Beatrice used the same scenario and the same characters, but it doesn't change the fact that the stories were made up, probably including hints about the truth, but still made up. The "games" are the same as those letters, that's what I think. In the end if you open the box the wave function collapses. there can only be a single reality. For what I know even the events that have been shown about what happened after the Rokkenjima incident aren't true, they might only be likely reconstructions of what would happen if Battler didn't solve the mystery. Maybe the real story stopped at 0.00 of October 6 in the first game.
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2009-10-02, 15:16 | Link #1033 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Okay, I think you're misunderstanding my position. I'll try my best not to do the same to yours. But I think you're giving up way too easily.
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Spoiler for 5 rules:
I think that sums it up for the most part. That last bit accounts for gaps in hearsay. If you only hear a partial account of a story, your own imagination makes up the difference. For example, Rosa hears "someone killed Kumasawa and Nanjo...it was something that can't be described in words...the culprit was Kanon and yet not Kanon". In this case, the real course of events is left to her imagination. It's possible that the Game Master is allowed to tweak these unspecified parts. Also, the major "observer" of magic scenes are the people who read the message bottle letters. If these letters detail every single line in the magic scenes, then this might be the way that the Game Master tweaks those parts.
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2009-10-02, 18:29 | Link #1034 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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The official poll has started!
http://umineko.locker.jp/vote/ |
2009-10-02, 19:21 | Link #1035 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Krauss'... did not make sense. Quote:
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2009-10-02, 20:24 | Link #1036 | |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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2009-10-02, 23:11 | Link #1038 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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I'm pretty sure it's an unspoken tradition to try and make Jessica and Kanon tie, so I voted for Kyanon earlier to bump him up . Looks like they're tied now .
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2009-10-03, 00:09 | Link #1039 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I still think this is overly complicated and incomplete. For once, what's the point of all this? I think there's a paradox in the fact that being the kakera infinite no matter how many times you peel them off, they will never get to one. Actually they will remain infinite no matter what. From the way the kakera are described you can't possibly enclose them because they have also infinite dimensions. The rules, the red and gold can only create boundaries at best. And in the end you still have an infinite number of Kakera whom Beatrice can choose from.
Anyway you have at least three different instances in this theory, a formless mass of data that gets refined trough a certain process, then the result gets metabolized by the observer and then a third entity the game master fills the gaps with whatever he likes. compared to the classic anti-fantasy and anti-mystery perspective it looks more complicated to me. And certainly is more complicated than my theory, well at the very least it is less straightforward and intuitive. Quote:
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As for 90% fake I was referring to ep5 alone. But look, if your theory is correct ep5 can't possibly be 90% fake, there's no way such a lame observer exist. So ep5 alone can disprove your theory. Mind that before ep5 I didn't think at all that the games are completely fictional. As for what it is that I consider fake, well the problem is, if you use the Bernkastel card you can refute everything I say, because for Bernkastel practically anything is possible. What I'm going to state that it is impossible now, you must read it as "normally impossible" or "extremely improbable". After this premise: Spoiler for size:
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2009-10-03, 01:56 | Link #1040 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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What if Beatrice borrowed the power from Lamdadelta to choose 4 kakera for the purpose of trapping Bernkastel but instead she used that power to show Battler the truth? If she did borrow powers from Lambda then who knows what she is capable of. We know almost nothing that can be confirmed about the "witch of certainty" Lambdadelta. Really, WHO THE HELL IS SHE?
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