(L+CR) Samurai Flamenco

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by musouka

But he wasn't in public, he was in his own apartment for crying out loud.

It looked like a rooftop to me.

Edit: Ok, re-watched it. The apartment was so hollowed out it gave me an open-air vibe. But yes, it was his apartment. I stand corrected.

I still think the stripping naked bit was silly and unnecessary. Maybe not quite as OoC as I first thought, I'll admit.

It's also pretty obvious that his confession to Gotou was sincere, if ill-thought out. There's no point in having Gotou question it and Masayoshi affirm its sincerity otherwise. Nor did the ending mean that Gotou was in love with Masayoshi. It just left the door open for that sort of future development. (And, there's certainly evidence that it's not as impossible as you'd think.

I never said that I thought it was impossible. I said there's no reason whatsoever to think that Gotou is gay or bi-sexual. And there isn't. It's not downright impossible that he's bi-sexual, but if he is bi-sexual, we should have had some evidence of that presented over the course of a two cour anime show, and we never were.

Sorry, but I just don't think that a character trait of this sort should be treated so very flippantly. I delved into that a lot in the debate on this thread a couple pages ago.

Otherwise there would be no reason for Gotou's invisible mental girlfriend to show obvious jealous over him talking about Masayoshi too much.)

I disagree. It's hardly strange for a girlfriend to express jealousy or disapproval of her boyfriend spending a lot more time "with the guys" (or a guy) than with her. Gotou was probably just thinking about that when he wrote out that text to himself.

In other words, this was probably one of the only plot threads in Samurai Flamenco with enough evidence and build up to carry itself to the logical, wedding proposal, conclusion.

Why do you think it's logical? I mean, what logic chain do you see here?

It seemed very silly to me.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It looked like a rooftop to me.

A rooftop with columns to tie Goto to? No, they were where the kid said he was: in Masayoshi's apartment.

Originally Posted by musouka

But he wasn't in public, he was in his own apartment for crying out loud.

It's also pretty obvious that his confession to Gotou was sincere, if ill-thought out. There's no point in having Gotou question it and Masayoshi affirm its sincerity otherwise.

Sincere... He wasn't lying, but mostly his understanding of love is still very partial. Or he wouldn't be sexually assaulting a kid one second and proposing the Goto the next.

[musouka]

Gotou has been characterized, romantically, as someone who "waits." He waits for his vanished girlfriend for years and years. So it should probably say something to the viewers that a lot of the most emotional scenes between him and Masayoshi are characterized by that same exact "waiting", whether it's waiting for Masayoshi to come to him for help, waiting for Masayoshi to come back from outer space, or simply waiting for Masayoshi to finish up talking to the guy that tried to destroy his life in this final episode. (Seriously, that scene outside the juvenile facility? Totally "boyfriend waiting for his SO to finish up so they can leave" to an almost ridiculous degree.)

Not only that, but while it might be "normal" for a girlfriend to resent any infringement of time spent with another person, Gotou doesn't actually have a girlfriend. His "girlfriend" is actually direct insight to how he feels about something, whether it's through having "her" worry about Masayoshi while watching TV, or, yes, having "her" get jealous when it seems like Gotou might be moving on from her in favor of Masayoshi. You also have commentary by outside parties over what their relationship looks like from people that interact with them.

It didn't just spring up out of no where. The only other time I participated in this thread was way back in the beginning, when people were complaining about homosexual undertones for these two from day one. Anime is full of scenes like these between two guys, and just because it usually pulls back to the last second and hides under a veil of friendship doesn't negate when it has the balls to step forward and say, "Yeah, all that homoerotic subtext? That was legit!"

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by musouka

Anime is full of scenes like these between two guys, and just because it usually pulls back to the last second and hides under a veil of friendship doesn't negate when it has the balls to step forward and say, "Yeah, all that homoerotic subtext? That was legit!"

Kinda funny you said this, because it reminds me of a certain other anime that ended the same day Samumenco did. Let's just say the episode had two things in common with Samumenco's: naked people and gayness.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by musouka

Gotou has been characterized, romantically, as someone who "waits." He waits for his vanished girlfriend for years and years. So it should probably say something to the viewers that a lot of the most emotional scenes between him and Masayoshi are characterized by that same exact "waiting", whether it's waiting for Masayoshi to come to him for help, waiting for Masayoshi to come back from outer space, or simply waiting for Masayoshi to finish up talking to the guy that tried to destroy his life in this final episode. (Seriously, that scene outside the juvenile facility? Totally "boyfriend waiting for his SO to finish up so they can leave" to an almost ridiculous degree.)

Honestly, this is a very weak argument you're making.

Gotou is waiting because he has no choice but to wait. He obviously has no choice but to wait for his vanished girlfriend. He obviously has no choice to wait for Masayoshi to come back from outer space. And when Hazama was on the run from the law, it could actually be problematic for a cop (of all people) to run into Hazama in public - It's much better for Hazama to come to him like he did.

And your final example is just a guy waiting for his friend. There's nothing special about that.

Gotou is actually quite proactive in situations where he can be - He never waited on Hazama to stop King Torture, for example. Not did he count on Hazama to handle the Prime Minister without assistance. Gotou didn't do any "waiting" there. He fought side-by-side with his friend.

Not only that, but while it might be "normal" for a girlfriend to resent any infringement of time spent with another person, Gotou doesn't actually have a girlfriend. His "girlfriend" is actually direct insight to how he feels about something, whether it's through having "her" worry about Masayoshi while watching TV, or, yes, having "her" get jealous when it seems like Gotou might be moving on from her in favor of Masayoshi.

I disagree. I think Gotou is doing his best to think "What would my girlfriend think of this if she was still here with me?" and then basically try to capture her voice. He's basically fanfic writing his own girlfriend.

I think Gotou was figuring "If my girlfriend was still here with me, she'd probably be a tiny bit resentful of me talking so much more about this new friend of mine than I do talking about her", and so there's the text.

Gotou isn't just going to parrot his own feelings back to himself through his girlfriend's texts - What would be the point? For what he's doing to have any meaning at all, and any immersion value at all, he has to do a pretty good job of capturing his girlfriend's voice; of making it feel like she really is still with him.

It didn't just spring up out of no where.

I'm inclined to disagree. The arguments you're putting forward are rather flimsy for a major character in a two-cour anime show.

Look, I'm fine with well-wrote gay pairs (just like I'm fine with well-wrote het/yuri pairs). For example, there was a strongly implied gay pairing in No. 6 that was a well-wrote and compelling one (No. 6 had serious issues on the whole, but that wasn't one of them).

But Hazama/Gotou just wouldn't count because there's just not enough there that can't quite reasonably be viewed as friendship.

In my view, their friendship is not a veil.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Kinda funny you said this, because it reminds me of a certain other anime that ended the same day Samumenco did. Let's just say the episode had two things in common with Samumenco's: naked people and gayness.

KlK? I haven't seen the episode yet.

[musouka]

I didn't say every interaction between Gotou and Masayoshi is characterized by "waiting", I said that the most emotional ones were usually characterized by Gotou waiting for Masayoshi. It's not a matter of him being passive--his "waiting" for his girlfriend was certainly not passive--it's a matter of personal satisfaction for Gotou that manifests in how he shows he cares for others. He waits for Masayoshi to get back from space not because he's a passive person, but because he wants to be there when Masayoshi gets back. Despite Gotou often dismissing Masayoshi as a pervert or rolling his eyes at his antics, waiting for Masayoshi in key scenes like that is supposed to tell us that he feels very deeply for Masayoshi and is just as invested in their relationship as Masayoshi is.

Even if his girlfriend is a character, she's still symbolic of his own wants and feelings, because he's carrying on a "relationship" with a mental manifestation of her. He's not writing a story about her, he is supposedly interacting and carrying on conversations with her. It doesn't make much sense to me, when conversations are actually being held between a single person, that we're not supposed to take that as evidence of said person's mindset. (In other words, Gotou himself has to be aware Masayoshi could be perceived as a threat to his relationship with his girlfriend, otherwise it would never occur for him to "write it" in the first place.)

It's not flimsy for a strong relationship to take a romantic turn without having been clearly defined as ROMANTIC in blinking neon letters from the beginning. If one of them was a woman, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now, because everyone would understand that the climax of their emotional arc was obvious.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by musouka

I didn't say every interaction between Gotou and Masayoshi is characterized by "waiting", I said that the most emotional ones were usually characterized by Gotou waiting for Masayoshi.

There was plenty of emotion in Gotou helping out Masayoshi against King Torture and the Prime Minister.

It's not a matter of him being passive--his "waiting" for his girlfriend was certainly not passive--it's a matter of personal satisfaction for Gotou that manifests in how he shows he cares for others.

No, it's a simple matter that in the situations you mentioned, Gotou has no choice but to wait. So I don't see this "waiting" element to be a character defining element of his in any regard - romantic or otherwise.

He's not waiting on his girlfriend so much as he's refusing to give up on her. If someone came forward with evidence suggesting that she had ran away from home to live somewhere else, living under a different name, a hour's drive away, do you think he'd continue "waiting" on her, or do you think he'd pro-actively act on this evidence, try to find her, and ask her (if he found her) what the hell's been going on the last several years? I'm pretty confident he'd try to find her.

Even if his girlfriend is a character, she's still symbolic of his own wants and feelings, because he's carrying on a "relationship" with a mental manifestation of her. He's not writing a story about her, he is supposedly interacting and carrying on conversations with her.

His interactions and conversations with her is the story he's writing about her. It's their story, part his real life, and part his conception of how she'd respond to it if she was still there. He has to write this because the real her isn't there anymore. But he wants "their" interactions to feel so real and true-to-life that it's like she really is still there with him. This is the mental trick he's playing on himself, this is his psychological coping mechanism.

In a way, it really is a big shame he didn't move past it this episode. This is obviously highly disturbed behavior.

That being said, the fact that he didn't move past it in spite of everything is pretty suggestive to what Gotou thinks of him having a romantic relationship with Hazama. I mean, why hold on to a long-dead/missing girlfriend if you're now truly in love with someone else? And that person proposed to you and everything?

It's hard (if not impossible) to prove a negative, so it's hard to prove that Gotou isn't gay or bi-sexual, but man, I don't know how you get any closer to it than him not moving on from his girlfriend after this.

It's not flimsy for a strong relationship to take a romantic turn without having been clearly defined as ROMANTIC in blinking neon letters from the beginning.

Strawman argument. There's a difference between some decent actual foreshadowing (at the very least) and blinking neon lights.

If one of them was a woman, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now, because everyone would understand that the climax of their emotional arc was obvious.

If Gotou was a woman, constantly texting her long-dead/missing teenage lesbian girlfriend while maintaining a long platonic friendship with Hazama, then I'd say that we have no reason to think that this female Gotou is straight or bi-sexual. And so we wouldn't.

So if a naked Hazama proposed to a female Gotou with a past lesbian relationship, I wouldn't consider that an obvious climax to their emotional arc. I would consider it silly.

[MK-95-]

The first half was really emotionally gripping. Goto's past is really depressing, but it made for a lot of good drama. I enjoyed the exposition it was given. I also liked the fact that it wasn't dragged on for too long, but wrapped up nicely in a short time.

The second half however, when Masa started stripping, I had a wtf thought in my mind. Then, when he started talking to Haiji, naked, & created one of the biggest homo misunderstandings I've ever seen. I was like o_O.

Then he shouts "lets get married!" I swear, I flipped a table or two. Even though the confession wasn't exactly romantic, but Masa misunderstanding the concept of love, you guys were actually right when you said he'd confess to Goto... -_- Then we have the "moron" segment, which was just funny as hell.

Nice ending, good to see everyone are all so merry & cheerful. Kinda sad to see that Goto is still using his coping mechanism though. I thought he'd finally overcome that shadow with everything that's happened & whatnot.

NO ROMANCES!!! That blows. My inner shipper is really disappointed...Still, it was a fairly reasonable & satisfying ending. So I can't really complain much.

[musouka]

We're going in circles at this point in time. I stick to my original assertion that A) Gotou has been shown to value his relationship with Masayoshi in such a way that a future romance is not an impossibility, and B) we're supposed to look to Gotou's "relationship" with his "girlfriend" for insights into Gotou's mindset, not how his girlfriend would have actually reacted in the situations Gotou came up with.

At no point did I ever argue Gotou was in love with Masayoshi from what was depicted on the show. Only that the relationship potential is there, whether they pursue it in the (offscreen) future or not.

[Goty]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

Kinda sad to see that Goto is still using his coping mechanism though. I thought he'd finally overcome that shadow with everything that's happened & whatnot.

..did i miss anything? It seemed to me he really received a text this time.

It's been six months, i think it was implied he found someone, and the good thing is that this girl actually sends him real texts.

[jeroz]

Masayoshi "proposed" to Goto not because he loves him romantically but because to him that's the only way to save him since himself still has no idea what love is. He is saying those things on face value without knowing what that means, but for his big love to people around him. This is the Masayoshi we all know, who acts before he thinks because he has such a big heart.

As for the stripping part prior, it goes back to the theme of the value of a hero. He no longer hides under the appearance of Samurai Flamenco. To save Sawada, he has to confront him fully as Masayoshi Hazama. He needs to show him the living breathing person behind the symbol which Sawada idolises since it has now becomes personal. Perhaps he doesn't need to strip fully naked, but that surprise tactics works so well in the end. To achieve heroics, he doesn't always needs to be a Flamenco, but just be himself, just like in the visiting scene in the end.

He didn't strip in order to propose to Goto. It just happened to due the previous event.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by Goty

..did i miss anything? It seemed to me he really received a text this time.

It's been six months, i think it was implied he found someone, and the good thing is that this girl actually sends him real texts.

That could be it too, but it can also be that he's still using his coping mechanism.

This was left open & hasn't really confirmed whether he moved on or is still using his coping mechanism. Another notable thing is that the icon for girlfriend is the same as the strap/key chain he has attached to her umbrella.

Originally Posted by jeroz

Masayoshi "proposed" to Goto not because he loves him romantically but because to him that's the only way to save him since himself still has no idea what love is. He is saying those things on face value without knowing what that means, but for his big love to people around him. This is the Masayoshi we all know, who acts before he thinks because he has such a big heart.

As for the stripping part prior, it goes back to the theme of the value of a hero. He no longer hides under the appearance of Samurai Flamenco. To save Sawada, he has to confront him fully as Masayoshi Hazama. He needs to show him the living breathing person behind the symbol which Sawada idolises since it has now becomes personal. Perhaps he doesn't need to strip fully naked, but that surprise tactics works so well in the end. To achieve heroics, he doesn't always needs to be a Flamenco, but just be himself, just like in the visiting scene in the end.

He didn't strip in order to propose to Goto. It just happened to due the previous event.

Still doesn't change the fact that it created what may be the most homo misunderstanding I've ever seen in any anime.

[Goty]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

That could be it too, but it can also be that he's still using his coping mechanism.

This was left open & hasn't really confirmed whether he moved on or is still using his coping mechanism. Another notable thing is that the icon for girlfriend is the same as the strap/key chain he has attached to her umbrella.

They made a point this time that he received the text out of nowhere, at that exact time, when he wasn't seen typing it (different from all the previous times). Besides, Masayoshi's reaction didn't the same compared to when he was sad about Goto's condition..

I think Goto definitely accepted his old girlfriend was gone when he said it himself, after Haiji deleted her last original text.
If Goto was lying to himself using a trip to Nicaragua, that would mean he's in an even worse state now, making up stories of trips and whatnot, which wouldn't fit well with the last developments.

Originally Posted by jeroz

Masayoshi "proposed" to Goto not because he loves him romantically but because to him that's the only way to save him since himself still has no idea what love is. He is saying those things on face value without knowing what that means, but for his big love to people around him. This is the Masayoshi we all know, who acts before he thinks because he has such a big heart.

Yeah, this. Goto didn't even take it at face value, as he knows Masayoshi well.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Goty

If Goto was lying to himself using a trip to Nicaragua, that would mean he's in an even worse state now, making up stories of trips and whatnot, which wouldn't fit well with the last developments.

No it wouldn't. Rationalizing a dead person to be watching over him every step of the way, knowing everything he does is far worse than a dead person being "away" on a trip, only messaging him periodically.

It's supposed to show that Gotou is taking baby steps. He's not going to be magically cured of his psychological trauma overnight.

[Goty]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No it wouldn't. Rationalizing a dead person to be watching over him every step of the way, knowing everything he does is far worse than a dead person being "away" on a trip, only messaging him periodically.

I disagree. If before he was keeping the illusion that she was still alive, sending messages from somewhere, now he would be not only grasping to the same ilusions, but also making up stories of magical trips inside his head, from scratch, to explain her absence. At the very least, it's very debatable.

That said, it's important to remember, again, that he wasn't seen typing it this time. He just got a text. And we don't know enough to assume that, if she's not real, she's texting him "sporadically", to say it changed for the better.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by Goty

They made a point this time that he received the text out of nowhere, at that exact time, when he wasn't seen typing it (different from all the previous times). Besides, Masayoshi's reaction didn't the same compared to when he was sad about Goto's condition..

I think Goto definitely accepted his old girlfriend was gone when he said it himself, after Haiji deleted her last original text.
If Goto was lying to himself using a trip to Nicaragua, that would mean he's in an even worse state now, making up stories of trips and whatnot, which wouldn't fit well with the last developments.

Fair point. I guess that may be the case. Though, there's still a small doubt in the back of my mind that'll only be erased if I see her in person.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Goty

I disagree. If before he was keeping the illusion that she was still alive, sending messages from somewhere, now he would be not only grasping to the same ilusions, but also making up stories of trips from scratch to explain her absence. At the very least, it's very debatable.

Whether you judge his delusions by quality or quantity, how he was before is still worse.

When you think of the trips as an "additional" delusion, you forget that Gotou was seen frequently texting himself, even in front of others over the course of the show. Even when he was preoccupied stopping King Torture's missile, he received a text.

Every time he impersonates his girlfriend through a text, he has to make up his girlfriend's thoughts, mannerisms, and texting style. This is a set of delusions that you fail to account for. He even pretended to be present at a movie with her.

Originally Posted by Goty

That said, it's important to remember, again, that he wasn't seen typing it this time. He just got a text. And we don't know enough to assume that, if she's not real, she's texting him "sporadically this time" to say it changed for the better.

It's not just the frequency. That text was far less detailed and connected to his personal life than the earlier ones.

"Where are you?" is nothing compared to "That was a great movie. Let's watch another one sometime!"

[ellessarr]

man this show i really dont know what to say, in the beginner i liked, then hated in the middle, hated even more then, looked less annoying then started look better near the end then this "end" omg.

the BROMANCE power is even more strong than nakama power, lol this naked moment, wtf, this anime if something he achieved was to be the most "nonsense anime of the year", too much plot twistters too much suddenly things and this end omg.

what i can say more even mari already accepted her defeat in goto heart to masayoshi (dont dare be between that 2)

bromance is strong here masayoshi asking goto in marriage and ask the boy "to joing then"(orgy???threesome???) wtf really that end saved the series for me

most of the masayoshi "nakama shounen" hero speech on this series where full of absurds to the point of even the villians goes WTF you are more crazy than me???? you dont make any sense!!!!!, masayoshi is a mega ultra chu2byou with level over 9000.

i agree who in the end not was goto sending messages to himself this time, we see him walking with masayoshi then the message come from the phone we dont see him typing this means who he have a new gilrfriend or maybe his old girlfriend finally come back, whatever not was really him type to himself this time.

i not gonna give a note cuz wtf impossible to judge the nonsense level of this serie.

[takai]

Originally Posted by musouka

Or, you know, he could find out what love is through his relationship with Gotou, which was actually built up for longer than one ambiguous scene a single episode before the end and was tied up perfectly by Masayoshi's marriage proposal.

Honestly, people sometimes...

Never said that wasn't possible, so I'm not exactly sure what you're insinuating. But a relationship with Sumi could've and would've worked just as well. Let's also not forget their development with one another other than just "one ambiguous scene".

Honestly, people sometimes.