2011-03-30, 20:22 | Link #22461 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Wait. Unlike Higurashi, there is no miracle in which everyone can survive? That saddens me. Although, it was meant to be bittersweet.
However, if everyone did survive, they would all probably die fighting off the island then get arrested. Other questions I would like to ask: Regarding the 'solved mysteries', technically we can put anything we want in how the murders were done? I'm still skeptical on the room with Maria and the three dead bodies in EP1, and the Halloween Murder in EP2. Any ideas or clarifications?
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2011-03-30, 22:10 | Link #22462 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Ange retraced that artist who still had the photograph and made him redo the painting. He was still alive after the incident! and Judoh I think there is a moral issue in "pretending not to know what happens next". It's as if I posted theories on the EP1 thread talking about how Kinzo killed everyone. When the people then will read the next part and when they'll realize that you knew the truth all along, they'll feel like you've been screwing around with them.
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2011-03-31, 00:34 | Link #22463 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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On a different note, why do Kanon (and to a lesser extent Shannon) consider their feelings for Jessica and George to be wrong due their furniture status? The sisters of Purgatory don't seem to have any issues with Ronove telling them to give out Valentine's Chocolate, but if he told Shannon to do so, Kanon would no doubt lecture her on how they are just furniture and thus are unable to love. Last edited by Frisko; 2011-03-31 at 00:36. Reason: grammar |
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2011-03-31, 01:12 | Link #22464 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Still though, your original response was inappropriate. There's nothing wrong with steaming the flames of speculation for people who haven't finished reading, and it's not like anyone here was trying to push anything as facts. You really need to check your attitude and stop being a party-pooper all the time, it's getting annoying. Quote:
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2011-03-31, 02:03 | Link #22465 | |
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Their exists a non-magical way to time travel. I submit that the scene wherein Kanon and Shannon claim that one of them usually dies on the first twilight, as well as the various anachronisms are substantial evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th and counter Knox's 4th. |
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2011-03-31, 03:41 | Link #22466 | ||||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2011-03-31, 06:59 | Link #22467 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway if you didn't know it's not your fault.
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2011-03-31, 08:22 | Link #22468 | |
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Basically Higurashi was a loop of events with effectively identical start and endpoints and the goal was to change things from the start to change the end to someone's satisfaction (in theory, any one of those endings is acceptable, in that any of them is possible). Umineko presents us with one continuous timeline preceding October 4-5 1986, and stretching from October 6 1986, with a great big question mark over those two days. The timeline goes in, the timeline comes out; something happens within that period. What we see in the stories are not loops, but different conceptions of the events which chronologically follow one another in origin (hence the "ability" to remember previous episodes). But there is no way to change the output. What happened happened. The people who survived will always emerge alive (regardless of what a story says about killing Eva, for example), the people who died are dead (regardless of whether a story ends with them alive). That's been suspected for a long time. So yeah, no miracle. But there never really was one to begin with. That was basically Bern's manipulation, though she never outright claims such a miracle is possible. She sure as hell hints it though. The best "miracle" one can hope for is that, out of the incomplete information, something believed to be true is actually false. It was believed Battler died; he didn't, so that's a "miracle" of sorts. But no miracle exists that can make it so that Eva didn't survive.
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2011-03-31, 08:49 | Link #22469 | |||
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I agree with Renall about the nature of Umineko's "time loop". I love how Ryukishi used a different idea to build the Higurashi structure, which also feels more real than the Sea of Kakera.
One thing bugs me about people surviving, but it's no big thing probably. But when Beatrice accuses Battler of his sin in EP4, she actually gives a red saying "No one escapes, all die". It could be something like a truth affecting only the EP4 gameboard, but it feels more general. Then other random tidbits Beatrice says during Battler's test. Quote:
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2011-03-31, 10:31 | Link #22470 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Also, could someone explain how episodes 7's game board works without fantasy or science fiction elements? Last edited by Frisko; 2011-03-31 at 11:06. Reason: adding more |
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2011-03-31, 12:32 | Link #22471 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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The actual gameboard is the tea party, isn't it? I don't see any problems. |
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2011-03-31, 12:48 | Link #22472 | |||||
The True Culprit
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If you can't explain things without invoking supertechnology, you're not REASONING. Quote:
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2011-03-31, 13:24 | Link #22473 |
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Bern saying she "went further back" might suggest timeline manipulation, but it's easier if you just think of the church as Aura said: Fiction. What Bern's really saying is "I changed the premise."
The other stories were written from the implicit assumption of a "real world" foundation; that is, they're based on the premise of the family conference as people believe it actually happened in 1986 (at least up to the point where information is unavailable). The Lion story is a story of the October 1986 conference, yet based on a different premise: What would 1986 have been like if Natsuhi had accepted the baby? Changing that premise is "reaching outside the box" in the sense that all the other Rokkenjima stories only chose to alter what happens in their fictional stories after the October 4th information cutoff. Lion's world only exists by taking from a premise that isn't true. I suspect this is part of why Bern can taunt Claire about this. Lion is a false hope in that his/her existence is escapism; no such world can actually exist outside of a fiction. Will's retort amounts to "Yeah, well so what? At least some version of this person has a great life, can't you leave that alone?" Bern, naturally, can't, but she's an asshole.
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2011-03-31, 13:58 | Link #22474 |
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The way the church was set up allowed Lion to meet Shannon and Kanon, and didn't allow anyone to leave. Those are the elements that I would like explained. As for it being fiction, aren't all of the game boards fiction that Yasu and Battler made up? (I got the impression that the church stuff and the tea party were simply on two different game boards.)As far as I know the rest of them can be explained by mundane means without simply saying their works of fiction.
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2011-03-31, 14:15 | Link #22475 |
The True Culprit
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You're right. But Bern is an asshole and has no respect for the story like Battler and Yasu do. She's an asshole.
The setup she gave Will wasn't meant to be real; it was just to put all the information in one place so he can investigate unobstructed; Lion and Yasu simultaneously exist, everyone else remembers both worlds, no one can leave the church, and no one questions Will's appearance. It's not meant to be real. If it helps, think of that whole "world" as Meta, like in EP5 when they had the court session and all the characters acted like wax dolls. Bern's "realistic scenario" is the Tea Party. Isn't that enough for you?
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2011-03-31, 15:07 | Link #22476 | |
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And in the Chapel Fiction of ep7, no one is allowed to leave, Will is allowed to be present, Kinzo is allowed to randomly be dead or alive, and Shannon and Kanon are allowed to be present as servants. Why? Because the author of the Chapel Fiction is not trying to make the story realistic. He/she/it is not obligated to. Rokkenjima Message Bottle Stories don't have to be mysteries. It's just that the "authentic" ones are. One could write a very dry and ordinary drama covering Oct. 4-5, ending in a tragic volcanic eruption. One could write a space opera epic where the mansion is converted into a starship and blasts off leaving a 1km crater, Battler fights space witches with a lightsaber, and Maria gets a cybernetic jaw. The only reason Knox doesn't allow those things in the stories we actually read is because they're trying to be mysteries and those things are not allowed in a mystery.
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2011-03-31, 15:43 | Link #22477 | |
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I thought they can't, not because of knox, but because they are based on the real setting. Events that could have happened. That's why they can also be fragments, if you believe in meta.
Though, now i sorta want to read the space-opera one. There is something that always bothered me, anyway Quote:
If Toya wrote Umineko, then why would he write fictions about the truth that he wanted to hide? Why did he make Beato and Lion suffering his stories? etc. If you think about it, unless meta exists, Battler is the true asshole. |
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2011-03-31, 16:07 | Link #22478 | |
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At the same time, if one "understands the truth" as Featherine put it, one should be able to write any message bottle story at all and have it contain some comprehensible essence of that truth. Maybe not much of one, but something all the same.
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2011-03-31, 16:55 | Link #22479 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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That's pretty much what the main part of EP7 is. Bern grabbed a fragment containing Lion, which didn't fit in the hole, and sort of glued it to one that did. The resulting world isn't even internally consistent, but examining the inconsistencies revealed some things about the original cat box. (Mashing fragments together in interesting and useful ways is something Bernkastel has a lot of experience with, if you buy that she's from Higurashi.)
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2011-03-31, 17:17 | Link #22480 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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I think the whole thing is meant to be a "whydunnit" anyway. We don't have any alibi information for "whodunnit" (except via the why, obviously) and we don't have any information for "howdunnit".
So... therefore, if your story accurately reflects the characters involved, and the events that happened outside of those two days, then it's useful as containing "part of the truth", I guess. |
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