[Manga] Naruto: The Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring Chapter 5 Discussion Thread

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Sasuke's characterization is so odd. Why make him this way???

Because not everyone can become perfect like naruto the story would lack tension XD

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I think I come in between you and Artful_Dodger here because while I do like and understand Sasuke's character, I am also totally sick of Sharingans. However, if things had turned out like you apparently wanted and Sasuke was a great, attentive father, I feel like Sasuke haters would still be bashing him for becoming Tsundere or just something he never was and out of character. For me, I think Sasuke's aloofness makes total sense for his character. Also, apologizing isn't in his character either. I don't know why anyone would expect that.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if sasuke was actually a decent father he would atleast be tolerable; boring, but tolerable.
Also, "not apologizing when you did something clearly wrong to someone you supposedly care about" is NOT a positive characteristic.

I could never hate Sasuke like so many fans of the series do. If you take a step back, the things that happened to him are so awful that there really isn't an acceptable way of dealing with them. At times, he acted completely psychotic, which I thought was understandable given what had happened prior to him acting that way. Some people irl have behaved just as psycho for going through less trauma.

how would you expect someone to react after finally getting revenge for their family's genocide and then finding out that it was all part of some village plot and his brother shouldered the burden for everyone to his ultimate death? Sasuke's insane reaction seems to be right in line to me.

I would expect Sasuke to actually RESPECT everything his brother fought and died for and not go punishing the innocent.

Sasuke knew that most of the village was unaware of what was happening to the uchiha, that the coup and genocide was the work of ONLY members of a select few of the leadership and that some members of the leadership even tried to STOP that situation from happening in the first place and worked to protect itachi. Sasuke basically knew that the ONLY ones guilty of itachi's suffering was Danzou and a few other elders and that everyone else was innocent... yet despite knowing that he decided he would destroy EVERYONE, regardless of their innocence because they unknowingly benefitted from itachi's suffering(he conveniently ignores that fact that he too was meant to benefit from Itachi's sacrifice aswell, but he effectively was throwing it away). This flies in the face of everything Itachi fought and died for; sasuke in essence was going to render Itachi's sacrifices all meaningless. Itachi sacrificed himself and went through hell to stop war and give sasuke a good future in Konoha and Sasuke just spat on his grave. His thinking was just totally backwards. Sasuke saw nothing wrong with trying to kill people who had nothing to do with itachi's suffering like Bee and he even went so far as to stab his own loyal allies in the back. Its all just disgusting.

And y'know i'm not even sure it even lines up with how a psycho would act in real life. With alot of them there is something very wrong about the way the think, like things they THINK are true that allows them to create a flawed rationalization for the horrible things they do. Like Bigots who rationalize their hatred for an entire race or group because they honestly believe that EVERY member of that group is the same. Sasuke doesn't have any such flawed rationalization to his actions; he's been told EXACTLY what happened and understands it; his actions are not only horrible but they also don't make sense even to his own mind.


And that is one of the major differences between Sarada and Sasuke. Sasuke's reaction to everything ultimately doesn't make much sense and THAT is what makes it less identifiable; I lost all sympathy for his character when he intended to harm those he KNEW were innocent. Sarada however, her reactions are actually believable; she reacts in the way most anyone would react in a similar situation. And really, none of it is her fault; Sarada is simply a victim of the circumstances that others put her in, and isn't really making things worst. Sasuke started like that, but then he went on to make the lives of others miserable and thus contribute to the problems that was started by others.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Also, "not apologizing when you did something clearly wrong to someone you supposedly care about" is NOT a positive characteristic.

I never said it was. I said it was a character trait of Sasuke's and his current actions fall right in line with who he's always been. Expecting something else is to expect a different character.

I would expect Sasuke to actually RESPECT everything his brother fought and died for and not go punishing the innocent.

He did respect Itachi and what he did. If you notice, Itachi was never the target of his hatred after Sasuke found out the truth. He actually loved him more than ever. The village wasn't innocent in his eyes.

sasuke in essence was going to render Itachi's sacrifices all meaningless.

yes exactly. even Itachi later admits that he made a mistake. many mistakes actually.

Itachi sacrificed himself and went through hell to stop war and give sasuke a good future in Konoha and Sasuke just spat on his grave.

if by 'good future' you mean 'murdered family and friends' then I don't agree

His thinking was just totally backwards. Sasuke saw nothing wrong with trying to kill people who had nothing to do with itachi's suffering like Bee and he even went so far as to stab his own loyal allies in the back. Its all just disgusting.

this is where the insanity comes in. I never said Sasuke was right or just or that I liked what he wanted to do. I said I understand his character arc and found it interesting. Who's to know what you would do if someone murdered your entire bloodline. I'd venture to guess that you wouldn't be making a lot of rational decisions.

And y'know i'm not even sure it even lines up with how a psycho would act in real life. With alot of them there is something very wrong about the way the think, like things they THINK are true that allows them to create a flawed rationalization for the horrible things they do.

you can capitalize things all you want, but it doesn't make them true. this is oddly hypocritical actually. Sasuke's thinking DID become flawed and he DID rationalize killing everyone in the village, including people who were unaware because they were enjoying life while Itachi suffered and died for them. You said so yourself earlier in this post.

Flawed thinking is also a major character trait of his (and all prominent Uchiha). His thinking was flawed ever since the start of the story (just not as bad). He was hellbent on revenge at all costs. Kakashi tried to get him to think more clearly, but it was impossible.

Like Bigots who rationalize their hatred for an entire race or group because they honestly believe that EVERY member of that group is the same. Sasuke doesn't have any such flawed rationalization to his actions; he's been told EXACTLY what happened and understands it; his actions are not only horrible but they also don't make sense even to his own mind.

but they DO. Sasuke did EXACTLY that (I can use capitals too ). He imagined the village as a bunch of happy idiots all flourishing due to his brother's sacrifice. often with a psycho, there is a trigger event to push them over the edge. Sasuke actually had 3 trigger events: the massacre, Itachi using Tsukyomi on him, and learning the truth about Itachi. That's more than enough to justify a serial killer, which is what he would have become if Kishi didn't intend to redeem him.

So to reiterate, I've never said that I like or endorse Sasuke's actions. I just understand them and think they have enough identifiable motivation.

[Artful_Dodger]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I would expect Sasuke to actually RESPECT everything his brother fought and died for and not go punishing the innocent.

Did he not eventually get to this point? I wouldn’t expect someone his age, and with his abilities to get to that point without issues considering what he endured... Can you imagine if we had teenagers (i.e. impulsive, irrational) who had these kinds of abilities in real life? I mean look at some of the rampages they go on as it is.

Sasuke basically knew that the ONLY ones guilty of itachi's suffering was Danzou and a few other elders and that everyone else was innocent... yet despite knowing that he decided he would destroy EVERYONE, regardless of their innocence because they unknowingly benefitted from itachi's suffering

Yes, he went psychotic… I thought him talking to his dead brother (e.g. “That’s one down nissan”), gazing out to nowhere with blood streaming from his eyes was a dead giveaway that his mental state wasn’t normal

Most people here often like to emphasize Sasuke’s evil deeds, but never seem to want to acknowledge what made him become that way. What makes it worse is that Kishimoto has been wailing on the dead horse of socialization for about a decade(we’re explicitly shown how every villain becomes a villain), to get the point across to children yet, it seems to go right over your heads somehow.

And y'know i'm not even sure it even lines up with how a psycho would act in real life.

Do you watch or read the news? Or read any history? Anyway, “psycho” is a broad term that really just means anyone who suffers from some kind of psychosis, so I wouldn’t expect a “psycho” to act any one very particular way.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I never said it was. I said it was a character trait of Sasuke's and his current actions fall right in line with who he's always been. Expecting something else is to expect a different character.

He did respect Itachi and what he did. If you notice, Itachi was never the target of his hatred after Sasuke found out the truth. He actually loved him more than ever. The village wasn't innocent in his eyes.

No he did not. It doesn't matter that he had no hatred for itachi, what he went on to do spit in the face of everything that itachi fought and died for. Having true respect for someone's sacrfice means to make certain that their sacrfice was not in vain, to help make sure that they accomplish what they gave their life for. Truly respecting Itachi's sacrfice would have meant helping him fulfill the dream he died to make possible. By trying to destroy konoha and helping start a war Sasuke was in fact making Itachi's sacrfice utterly meaningless. Had Sasuke succeeded, Itachi would have suffered and died for nothing. He would have died in vain... What makes it worst is that edo tensei makes it so Itachi would go to the after life KNOWING he failed to save sasuke from a life of darkness and misery, and prevent war.

if by 'good future' you mean 'murdered family and friends' then I don't agree

Good future realtive to what itachi could give him. Thanks to the uchiha coup, sasuke was due to deal with pain in his life but Itachi could atleast fight to salvage what was left. Sasuke however took that chance itachi died to make happen and threw it back in his face. Sasuke went down the one path that itachi tried to stop him from going down.

Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger

Most people here often like to emphasize Sasuke’s evil deeds, but never seem to want to acknowledge what made him become that way. What makes it worse is that Kishimoto has been wailing on the dead horse of socialization for about a decade(we’re explicitly shown how every villain becomes a villain), to get the point across to children yet, it seems to go right over your heads somehow.

Do you watch or read the news? Or read any history? Anyway, “psycho” is a broad term that really just means anyone who suffers from some kind of psychosis, so I wouldn’t expect a “psycho” to act any one very particular way.

I do read the news, i read plenty of stories about psychos and cirminasl and what-not, and that's exactly where i'm coming from. With many of them, i can see where their flawed thinking comes from, how they can draw the wrong conclusions to rationalize the horrible things that they do. But not with Sasuke. His thinking doesn't add up even in a flawed sense. He loves and respects his brother and yet he goes on to make all of his sacrifices meaningless. How does DESTORYING everything Itachi died for respect the sacrfices he made? Also he fully understands that the most of the village is innocent and yet claims them guilty anyway. With most of the IRL killers, they do not believe such innocence, they don't actually understand, that's what creates the flawed thinking that leads them to rationalize everyone as guilty. Its like they are not seeing the whole picture and just drawing the wrong conclusions... What makes it more nonsensecial is that i can get some idea of what might be going on in the mind of a criminal even though i only have helf idea of who they are; in contrast i know EVERYTHING that sasuke knows and it still doesn't make sense. I DO acknowledge everything that happened to sasuke, i however do not think his actions make sense given what he knew. The story itself doesn't add up right.

For sasuke's motivations and actions to actually work there has to be something he fails to understand, something that he's missing that helps create his utterly screwed up perspective. But he's not missing anything, he knows the full truth and knows, he knows everything we know but he draws a completely different conclusion... Really his story might have worked better if Madara had simply lied to sasuke or left certain details out, such as neglecting to tell him sarutobi tried to stop the genocide and stop the coup peacefully, and allow sasuke to think that the village all scorned the uchiha, thus giving him his rationalization that they were all guilty.