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Old 2018-06-13, 04:05   Link #4601
The One Above God
Kamijou
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trov View Post
That was one long raw chapter. More than twice the usual text. But it pretty much ends the climax of the arc.
Spoiler for Main points:
Or the butt of the arrow, whatever that's called .
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Old 2018-06-16, 04:39   Link #4602
Enigma29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Fair enough. Well, it's true @Enigma29 brought some very good tangible arguments against Hibiki which makes me admit she is indeed more flawed that I give here credit for (hmm can you even "give credit" for someone being flawed?). I still don't she wrong in general sense and that there is no chance she could do it, but I will indeed stop here.

On other note neither Tomoki nor Hibiki can put world in danger. Tomoki will burn out in decade at most and unless his charm shenanigans can significantly lowere birthrates worldwide in twenty years there should be no trace left after him. As for Hibiki What can she do at worst? Win war? Loose war? If she wins things will not get worse even if she fails make it better. If she cross line Apostle will try kill her if it succeed nothing will change if she can fend it, then she has chance make change for better even if Goddess is involved, Well she probably will not make any major change, but even failing bear no consequences here.

In the end neither of two heroes has enough power to put world in danger even if they tried.
I'm just going to say this.

Tomoki has the power to mess up the world in his own life time. You are severely underestimating the charm power despite seeing the effect it had in Lorel. The country was almost about to be turned into ruins and he did that in a few months time?

If he further develop his charm powers, he can use it to turn the entire world into a zombie state. The only reason why he is working stealthily is because of Kuzunoha Company's existence. Otherwise he wouldn't have just picked Lorel who is isolated from the rest of the world. Even if it was prevented by Kuzunoha and Apple, you can't deny that that power can destroy the world if he wasn't being restrained by Kuzunoha's existence.

That's Lily's objective after all, destroying the world.

Hibiki's power works differently, but as the demons said, it is the most dangerous. That's why they wanted to kill her so bad in the first place.

Her power creates fanatics. Even if she dies they will still move according to her will. But when I say that she is becoming a threat to the world, I don't mean just her charisma powers, i'm speaking about her actions. She is poking her nose where it doesn't belong, despite receiving a warning. She is still going after Makoto and her actions is causing the goddess to move.

If she triggers the war between these two beings, it will cause a huge devastation and Waterfall warned her about it.

As for her charisma powers... I'm not going to fall into that argument again. You have already seen the effects it had on people and the consequences it led to during the battle in Limia capital. If you can't understand how much of a threat that can be, then i'm not going to try to persuade you to understand, since it will just be pointless.

Anyway, compared to the negative effect the heroes have on the world, how much of a negative effect did Makoto's power and actions have on the world?

That's how you decide who is more dangerous. Don't judge them based on who they are, but what they do.

There were a few stories where they always said that the hero and the demon king are the same type of threat to the world. It is only how they use their power that they can be differentiated as hero and demon king.
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Old 2018-06-16, 05:33   Link #4603
Hokoga
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What exactly bad will happen if Shiva didn't destroy the alternative realities that kept sprouting up because of the two heroes?
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Old 2018-06-16, 05:37   Link #4604
Breimn
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Maybe a big boom?Reality itself being destroyed?
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Old 2018-06-16, 05:52   Link #4605
Tenzen12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma29 View Post
I'm just going to say this.

Tomoki has the power to mess up the world in his own life time. You are severely underestimating the charm power despite seeing the effect it had in Lorel. The country was almost about to be turned into ruins and he did that in a few months time?

If he further develop his charm powers, he can use it to turn the entire world into a zombie state. The only reason why he is working stealthily is because of Kuzunoha Company's existence. Otherwise he wouldn't have just picked Lorel who is isolated from the rest of the world. Even if it was prevented by Kuzunoha and Apple, you can't deny that that power can destroy the world if he wasn't being restrained by Kuzunoha's existence.

That's Lily's objective after all, destroying the world.

Hibiki's power works differently, but as the demons said, it is the most dangerous. That's why they wanted to kill her so bad in the first place.

Her power creates fanatics. Even if she dies they will still move according to her will. But when I say that she is becoming a threat to the world, I don't mean just her charisma powers, i'm speaking about her actions. She is poking her nose where it doesn't belong, despite receiving a warning. She is still going after Makoto and her actions is causing the goddess to move.

If she triggers the war between these two beings, it will cause a huge devastation and Waterfall warned her about it.

As for her charisma powers... I'm not going to fall into that argument again. You have already seen the effects it had on people and the consequences it led to during the battle in Limia capital. If you can't understand how much of a threat that can be, then i'm not going to try to persuade you to understand, since it will just be pointless.

Anyway, compared to the negative effect the heroes have on the world, how much of a negative effect did Makoto's power and actions have on the world?

That's how you decide who is more dangerous. Don't judge them based on who they are, but what they do.

There were a few stories where they always said that the hero and the demon king are the same type of threat to the world. It is only how they use their power that they can be differentiated as hero and demon king.
Yeah Tomoki can create zombie state, but once he dead (which wouldn't take long) they regain their sanity and lives goes on.

Hibiki investigating Makoto is also nothing special. Hibiki gave up on getting Makoto on her side, but Kuzunuha became one of mayor powers on continent. Even if he was saint, he is still walking nuke as well it's important know as much possibly about his movement. It's not just Hibiki, every major nation keep tab on him as much as possible, that comes with this level of power. It's same in out power too.
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Old 2018-06-16, 16:30   Link #4606
Enigma29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Yeah Tomoki can create zombie state, but once he dead (which wouldn't take long) they regain their sanity and lives goes on.

Hibiki investigating Makoto is also nothing special. Hibiki gave up on getting Makoto on her side, but Kuzunuha became one of mayor powers on continent. Even if he was saint, he is still walking nuke as well it's important know as much possibly about his movement. It's not just Hibiki, every major nation keep tab on him as much as possible, that comes with this level of power. It's same in out power too.
I didn't want to reply again, but seriously...

You're doing it again, you know?

It might seem like you're replying to my argument, but you've managed to miss the point entirely, again and i've almost been baited into replying irrelevant stuff, again.

So, back up a sec...

What part of my argument makes you think that the last part of your post works as a counter to mine?

For the millionth time, I never denied that Makoto is a threat. What I was trying to prove all this time was that despite Makoto being the one with the highest threat level, right now the two heroes are the ones causing the most problems to the world.

I also just realised that somehow you're taking me saying 'the heroes having the most negative influence in the world compared to Makoto', made you somehow end up thinking that it should mean that they 'can destroy the world with their power', which gives you an excuse to refute my argument and for some reason I was also sucked into it, but no...

Even if I think there is a possibility that it could happen, their negative influence, no matter how small, is still greater compared to what threat Makoto has brought to the world.

That's why it gets annoying when you keep bringing up Makoto as a threat every time you post about him when he didn't even do anything wrong yet.

Tomoki caused a great disaster in Lorel within just a few months and Lili's objective is to destroy the world. It doesn't take a genius to know heat they are planning to cause a war with the other major countries. Whether he dies or not is irrelevant, since he has already created problems.

Hibiki didn't give up on Makoto. That's the whole reason why she wanted to discover the thing he holds dear and decided to head for the Mirage town. She revealed her true feelings after she spoke to Makoto and said that the ideal way would be if the demons and Kuzunoha defeat each other or if Makoto decided to build a country somewhere. She was trying to find a way to make him join the war, not just to help her and the hyumans, but also to diminish his power (Kuzunoha).

Last edited by Enigma29; 2018-06-16 at 16:43.
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Old 2018-06-16, 23:52   Link #4607
Random123654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Yeah Tomoki can create zombie state, but once he dead (which wouldn't take long) they regain their sanity and lives goes on.

Hibiki investigating Makoto is also nothing special. Hibiki gave up on getting Makoto on her side, but Kuzunuha became one of mayor powers on continent. Even if he was saint, he is still walking nuke as well it's important know as much possibly about his movement. It's not just Hibiki, every major nation keep tab on him as much as possible, that comes with this level of power. It's same in out power too.
It's not as simple as 'their lives go on'. He's ruining peoples' relationships and lives - it's been heavily implied that a significant number of people would commit suicide due to the things they did while charmed. Given the info has felt sort of back-and-forth, it was stated at one point that if they're charmed long enough that the charm 'lingers over' and would cause them to feel like they're still in love even if it was removed (this was straight up stated at some point, though based on other bits I feel like the author kind of wanted to retcon it).

If everyone was brainwashed - their lives completely and utterly derailed - and suddenly released all at once, it wouldn't just be a simple 'oh cool', it would be utter pandemonium. People committing suicide, lamenting over what they've done, depression, possibly paranoia and such. Quite likely riots from anyone not just curled up in a ball and sobbing/committing suicide. They still have all the memories of themselves doing shit they didn't want to do, and though they knew 'they' weren't in control, they still recall doing the deeds.
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Old 2018-06-17, 00:07   Link #4608
Tenzen12
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Yes it's lot of tragedy.

Black Death plague was much worse though.
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Old 2018-06-19, 01:06   Link #4609
Darius Drake
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^ The Black Plague affected rich & poor equally, with people "randomly" being affected. It was horrific, but it didn't hit everyone and tended to kill those it did affect.

Tomoki's current method of spreading his charm is a human controlled form of biological warfare which makes people want to spread it, and doesn't kill them. If it affects the entirety of a country (which is the minimum Tomoki is planning on doing), it would also limit the childbirth of said country to only Tomoki's children, making it so that there likely wouldn't be a full generation after he dies. If he manages to do it to all of the Hyuman's, then the race will likely be infertile or descended from him upon his death, and the number of fertile survivors would likely not be a large amount.

Additionally, those survivors would likely be completely brainwashed to the point of no return by that point, which would make it so that they wouldn't want to reproduce. In short, Tomoki's Plans would likely result in the Hyuman's being wiped out. Please explain how this is better than the Black Plague? Is it because it's less gross, slower, or something else?

Also, that's not taking into consideration what the effects of his night-time immortality would have on his lifespan.
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Old 2018-06-19, 11:46   Link #4610
Tenzen12
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It's because people still can get up go to work and feed family. Black death came hand to hand with famine and together it killed half of European population. Of course birth rates suffered, various civil wars came from it, banditry became common occurrence too.

As for Tomoki once he is dead people would move on. These who committed some atrocities might consider killing their self. But majority would just return to their own business as broken as they get. lives goes on. Child already born that will reach puberty after Tomoki dies will be just fine too.
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Old 2018-06-19, 15:08   Link #4611
heroeric
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Has it been confirmed that charm will disapear if Tomoki dies?
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Old 2018-06-19, 16:15   Link #4612
Morilinde
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Not that i know. Perhaps his death might send the people who are deeply charmed into a frenzy which will turn them into berserkers or something. The thing is once the charm is removed it seems to turn the victim into a state where their emotions seem to overrule any reason. Look at Haruka: such a strong willed and talented woman and even she wants to die after breaking free. Not that Makoto will allow it.
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Old 2018-06-19, 18:32   Link #4613
Darius Drake
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^ That's also ignoring the Trio Tomoki gained at the beginning, and ended up throwing away due to being bored with them. You know, the one's that Makoto killed due to the fact that they were brainwashed so thoroughly that curing them wouldn't actually change anything due to the long-term brainwashing power changing their base personality?

Yeah, if it lasts long enough, even if Tomoki dies AND the charm disappears, it's not going to change anything. As for explaining why Haruka changed back (but became suicidal), she simply wasn't affected by it for long enough for that to be an issue.
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Old 2018-06-20, 19:31   Link #4614
Random123654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius Drake View Post
^ That's also ignoring the Trio Tomoki gained at the beginning, and ended up throwing away due to being bored with them. You know, the one's that Makoto killed due to the fact that they were brainwashed so thoroughly that curing them wouldn't actually change anything due to the long-term brainwashing power changing their base personality?

Yeah, if it lasts long enough, even if Tomoki dies AND the charm disappears, it's not going to change anything. As for explaining why Haruka changed back (but became suicidal), she simply wasn't affected by it for long enough for that to be an issue.
To be entirely fair, it came across as Makoto didn't cure them because they were principled and honest people and it was (implied that it was) almost certain they would commit suicide after being cured. I don't think it outright stated that, but I remember the chapter where Makoto realized he read their memories and got a 'grasp' on their personality very heavily implying that.

Guess the logic was 'better they just die easily' rather than 'free them from the charm so they'll feel terrible and depressed and then commit suicide'.

It's actually that particular situation that made me think the author might want to retcon the whole 'Charm will eventually become permanent even if the charm is removed' thing (which I'm certain was stated). Because that part highly implied they'd commit suicide if the charm was removed, despite how long they'd been charmed (to the point that they should have just continued to be in love with Tomoki).
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Old 2018-06-21, 04:57   Link #4615
kusabireika
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random123654 View Post
To be entirely fair, it came across as Makoto didn't cure them because they were principled and honest people and it was (implied that it was) almost certain they would commit suicide after being cured. I don't think it outright stated that, but I remember the chapter where Makoto realized he read their memories and got a 'grasp' on their personality very heavily implying that.

Guess the logic was 'better they just die easily' rather than 'free them from the charm so they'll feel terrible and depressed and then commit suicide'.

It's actually that particular situation that made me think the author might want to retcon the whole 'Charm will eventually become permanent even if the charm is removed' thing (which I'm certain was stated). Because that part highly implied they'd commit suicide if the charm was removed, despite how long they'd been charmed (to the point that they should have just continued to be in love with Tomoki).
I hope not it would be obvious route if that happen. ~_~
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Old 2018-06-21, 07:57   Link #4616
Darius Drake
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^ True, but, remember, this story is being published now (even if the publishing is nowhere near the online version of the story). That means that it has editors checking and "correcting" things to "suit the target audience".

Honestly, though, I feel like it being as it is without clarification is probably going to be the way they go, both short and long term. If they "clarify" it to mean the newly expected "changed" meaning, that makes Makoto's actions to kill them less of a mercy and means that the person who was devastated by their deaths is actually in the right. This would mean that Makoto killed them without good reason, something that most power fantasy's like this try to avoid. It would also bring people to dislike Makoto, particularly those how know those who have been previously suicidal. Basically, it'll bring bad feels all around for something that could be avoided by being vague, or keeping it as "they were magically brainwashed for so long that it changed their mental 'landscape' to fit the brainwashing".
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Old 2018-06-21, 08:40   Link #4617
Sparteh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius Drake View Post
^ True, but, remember, this story is being published now (even if the publishing is nowhere near the online version of the story). That means that it has editors checking and "correcting" things to "suit the target audience".

Honestly, though, I feel like it being as it is without clarification is probably going to be the way they go, both short and long term. If they "clarify" it to mean the newly expected "changed" meaning, that makes Makoto's actions to kill them less of a mercy and means that the person who was devastated by their deaths is actually in the right. This would mean that Makoto killed them without good reason, something that most power fantasy's like this try to avoid. It would also bring people to dislike Makoto, particularly those how know those who have been previously suicidal. Basically, it'll bring bad feels all around for something that could be avoided by being vague, or keeping it as "they were magically brainwashed for so long that it changed their mental 'landscape' to fit the brainwashing".
Speaking of published version, how many chapters has it covered so far?
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Old 2018-06-22, 07:52   Link #4618
Enigma29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random123654 View Post
It's not as simple as 'their lives go on'. He's ruining peoples' relationships and lives - it's been heavily implied that a significant number of people would commit suicide due to the things they did while charmed. Given the info has felt sort of back-and-forth, it was stated at one point that if they're charmed long enough that the charm 'lingers over' and would cause them to feel like they're still in love even if it was removed (this was straight up stated at some point, though based on other bits I feel like the author kind of wanted to retcon it).

If everyone was brainwashed - their lives completely and utterly derailed - and suddenly released all at once, it wouldn't just be a simple 'oh cool', it would be utter pandemonium. People committing suicide, lamenting over what they've done, depression, possibly paranoia and such. Quite likely riots from anyone not just curled up in a ball and sobbing/committing suicide. They still have all the memories of themselves doing shit they didn't want to do, and though they knew 'they' weren't in control, they still recall doing the deeds.
Don't forget the people who would want revenge against them, like what happened in Lorel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
It's because people still can get up go to work and feed family. Black death came hand to hand with famine and together it killed half of European population. Of course birth rates suffered, various civil wars came from it, banditry became common occurrence too.

As for Tomoki once he is dead people would move on. These who committed some atrocities might consider killing their self. But majority would just return to their own business as broken as they get. lives goes on. Child already born that will reach puberty after Tomoki dies will be just fine too.
Really, the Black Plague?

These two are way too different to be compared, since the charm isn't really an illness that can kill, but instead force people to obey the will of Tomoki and live for his sake.

I've already addressed this, but you're still only looking at the end result for when Tomoki dies and the effect it has on the people he charmed, but not really seeing the immediate problem here.

Lilly is set on destroying the world and Tomoki is her lapdog that she manipulates, with a massive army of zombie-like soldiers.

You should take Lorel as a simulation for what's to come, not just an event that has been resolved.

So, instead of just thinking, "the world will get back to normal some time after Tomoki dies", you should be thinking about the damage he can do while he is still alive and think about the one manipulating him and how far she is willing to go.

Also, the people who will come at him for revenge and will be slaughtered by his charmed soldiers.

Last edited by Enigma29; 2018-06-22 at 08:22.
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Old 2018-06-22, 12:22   Link #4619
Tenzen12
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Well, yes Lorel is pretty good example what would happen, but you are wrong about something. People affected doesn't turn into "zombies". They will do anything for Tomoki (regardless whether he order it or not), that much is sure, but they still have free will regarding everything else as well as their intelect and personality. Ginebia still is loyal to Lily (she would probably kill her if Tomoki asked, but she would still sacrificed her life all the same to protect her against anyone else) and Dragon loli still care about her pets and these two are among ones earliest example of charmed.

Even if everyone were to love him because of charm, only few of them knows his goals or intentions. Regular plebs would just continue live as they did before until some kind of order comes. Majority of women would probably still did their marrital duties a even if it their relationship with their husbans weren't that of love anymore and longed for Justin Bieber Tomoki instead.

Well, once Lorel would fall and went under Gritonia. Hibiki would probably make her attempt kill Tomoki, which could minimalise damage and if she fail and die herself then whole human continent would be united, which might even turn to be beneficial in long run (once charm stop be issue of course) as well. Succesful conquests always had it's perks.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2018-06-22 at 14:13.
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Old 2018-06-25, 07:44   Link #4620
whitecloud
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by the way for those that have read it, what is the difference between LN and WN version so far?
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