AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-12-02, 10:04   Link #81
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 32
Suzaku didn't kill any terrorists in Shinjuku. He pulled a Kira, intentionally avoiding cockpits and letting them eject safely. And those guys were hardly innocent, they're enemy soldiers who chose to attack Britannia. We haven't seen enough of Britannia's policies to know what would happen if there weren't terrorists hiding among the civilians, so the whole massacre could be considered partially their fault anyway, from Suzaku's point of view. Unless Britannia kills civilians completely without provocation, which we haven't seen any evidence of despite their complete mercilessness after being provoked, then Suzaku's somewhat right to believe that stopping the terrorists is the path towards peace. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure he killed the cannon operators in episode 8. Of course, those guys had already taken and killed hostages. Anyway, Suzaku has shown nothing that implies he would kill innocents or judges people too quickly or anything.

Basically, Suzaku doesn't believe in terrorism. "The war is over, we lost, make the best of it." Fighting back is only going to make things worse for the people caught in the middle, which is clearly right. Especially if you're fighting back terrorist-style, which is probably long-term attrition with no victory in sight for either side. He's swallowing his Japanese pride and doing what he thinks is best for everyone. Britannia is cruel, and he knows that, but they're not demons, so there's hope for change. They already have an Honorary Britannian system, don't they? Maybe by becoming a model officer and showing that Elevens can be loyal, they'll start to relax their policies.

Hmm... I'm just kind of annoyed at everyone calling Suzaku an idealist or saint or Kira mk2, or whatever. The fact is, he's powerless and he knows this. Sure, he could join the rebellion and prolong some meaningless fighting that will probably result in Japan losing again, or he could go completely batshit insane and dress up in a cape while taunting Britannia, but really, what's that going to accomplish? Very little, unless he's either extremely skilled or extremely lucky. Sure it's kind of crazy to go back to the people that conspired to kill you, but what could he accomplish as a fugitive? At least by going back under crazy circumstances he has a chance of accomplishing something and he's definitely showing his conviction to Britannia.

Lelouch is the one with his head in the clouds. He's completely uncompromising in his beliefs and is willing to gamble everything on reckless chances. The fact that he's somewhat cunning just makes him a more dangerous fanatic, even further from a realist. I suppose this can be traced back to his father telling him, basically, that you're not truly alive until you take your fate into your own hands, but even that doesn't completely justify his suicidal fanaticism.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-02, 10:43   Link #82
evil|plushie
The Last Frontier
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Suzaku is Kira Mk2. Let's see, part of an outcast species (the japanese) working for the other side *the naturals/britiannia* with a supermech *lancelot*. Helloooo Kira. As for his ideals, they may be fine and morally upright. Let's see, he wants to make Britiannia a better and more peaceful empire and he does this by JOINING the army? Wow, sure, the armys really known for spreading peace and love around.

Sure, he wanted to change the system from within, but I seriously question the wisdom of joining the frigging army/system that's being used to oppress the people in the first place. If you ask me, Suzaku is in far more danger of losing his ideals or going down a dangerous slippery slope than Lelouch. Lelouch at least knows what he wants and how to go about it. Suzaku really just has some preconceived notion and a rough general idea.

But I digress, the episodes have not been kind to Suzaku. He's not figured prominently and when he does, nothing really special is shown about him. Hence, people think he's Kira simply because he's that boring.

As for Lelouch. Yes, he's going down a dangerous path but on some level, he knows that and he is willing to lose his life for that. Is he uncompromising? Maybe, maybe not. If he really was, he'd have shot Euphemia in the hotel since she was one of the Emperors own. If he was, he'd have allied with the JLF and forsaken his friends.

Is he a fanatic? It really depends on what you mean. Does he want to destroy the empire? Yes. Does he want to protect his sister? Yes. But so do the rest of the Japanese rebels, are they fanatics too?

He's not a realist? I think he has a far more realistic view of the situation than Suzaku. You might call it a far more cynical or pessimistic view. He knows Britiannia is stagnating from within, it's corrupt and brutal. So how do you change a system like that? By fighting it from within or fighting it from without? In reality, which option has been used the most? The peaceful 'lets all get along' or the 'lets just beat the crap out of each other' solution?

In summary, I prefer someone who knows what they're doing over someone who doesn't.
__________________
God is on the side with the biggest cannon.

http://sining83.blogspot.com
evil|plushie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-02, 13:44   Link #83
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 32
Quote:
Sure, he wanted to change the system from within, but I seriously question the wisdom of joining the frigging army/system that's being used to oppress the people in the first place. If you ask me, Suzaku is in far more danger of losing his ideals or going down a dangerous slippery slope than Lelouch. Lelouch at least knows what he wants and how to go about it. Suzaku really just has some preconceived notion and a rough general idea.
He joined because he wants to set an example and he's already doing it. This was explained in episode 4 where he was about to be executed. If he had joined Lelouch, the other elevens and honorary britiannians would be persecuted.

Suzuka's already made an impression on the purists faction when he saved Jeremiah. They maybe purists but we've seen them suprised and shocked by his loyalty and perservance to defend them. Next time I doubt Jeremiah or Villete would hesistate to assist him.

Then we have Yuffie, so Suzuka now has a royal family member that shares his views and we know that she isn't too fond with Britannia's ways (reinforced when she notes about how she feels about Cornelia's beliefs).

And now Cornelia, she actually goes forth and promotes an eleven. She gives him a suicide mission which Suzkua takes without questioning and even succeeds where her men failed so that's already an impression made there when she was surprised.

As Suzuka said, "it's still not enough for them to accept us?" If he keeps this up, they will.

IMO, I would go this far to say that Suzuka and Lelouch are working together to bring change to the world. Lelouch knows how to use the media, hence the civilians, britannians specifically. Suzkua himself is an irregular soldier who continues to do the impossible without questioning so he's making an impression on the military, plus he has yuffie on his side.
SoldierOfDarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-02, 14:48   Link #84
evil|plushie
The Last Frontier
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
I dont know, but there must have been some other avenues of choice to take other than just choosing the army. I mean, what about becoming a politician, an influential talk show host, a famous scientist? All these occupations carry some weight, so it's ridiculous to think that a person would try and carry out 'peaceful' change by joining the army. Especially when you know that the army has been used to kill civilians and enemy countries. Of course, it's even worse when if you think about it enough, you'll end up realising that to get anywhere in the army, you'll have to actually condone the current actions of the army and perhaps even perform some of those said actions. So in reality, not only would one be selling away their moralistic principles in doing so, but also end up becoming one of those they hated.

But then again, I forget that this is an anime and that Suzaku is a Kira so it'll probably work out (miraculously) for him in the end through the power of lancelots plot-twisting mechanism.
__________________
God is on the side with the biggest cannon.

http://sining83.blogspot.com
evil|plushie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-02, 23:01   Link #85
antheonoileo
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Quote:
He joined because he wants to set an example and he's already doing it. This was explained in episode 4 where he was about to be executed. If he had joined Lelouch, the other elevens and honorary britiannians would be persecuted.
Set an example for what ? For the fact that an 11 can serve well for the empire army even if it means pointing the gun to his people ? Or that they can live together peacefully like the cowboys and their cattle, where the cattle are still loyalty even he is about to be executed (and seeing many of his fellows - innocent or not - executed) ? I dunno that he went back is really right or wrong decision, but I do agree with that choice, which doesn't mean that I agree with his whole "choice"

Yes, the only reason that makes him join the army is because we need an action hero here. Technically speaking (borrowing from the one in previous posts ^_^), it is like impossible for a solder not to make any calsualty, especially fighting in a city then those may include both enemy and innocents. (@ Bahamut89: Besides, according to your post then the "enemy" is the enemy of Britanian -> his enemy is the enemy of the Britanian empire ?)

And it seems I need to repeat that the reason why he only killed a few "enemy" people is just because of the producer's will. It's micracle (=producer's will) that he can keep this till the end. I think he is even more "godlike" than Kira as even the type of "defending" Kira still has to kill a lot, while this "attacking" Suzaku doesn't ^_^

Lulu may did some "miraculous" things but we can understand because he is so smart, has plan already, knowing how to get support, and has Geass power. And besides, he still loses sometimes. But for Suzaku ? That he doesn't have to turn to a "bloody solder" in such a battlefield-city is miracle already. And what he can achieve so far ? He make some certain powerful people think that, even he, a 11, can work well for the sake of the empire army ^_^ With this good pace, we only have to wait about 100 years for the change of Britanian's perspective. Well done

Edit: besides, Yuffie cannot really do something, at least right now if she doesn't want to be eliminated right away. The only circumstance that she can show off is after Lulu has made the party available for her.

Edit2: I see some of you believe that the people who support the "terriorists" should be killed like enemy. How sad. They are living in their country, supporting their own solders (or terriorists in the view of the strong one) for the independence and human right of themselves, and yet deserve to be killed by those who invaded and kill their fellows without mercy and sometimes just for fun ? I dun like terriorists (such as in ep 8), but I dislike that we use the word "terriorists" too easily either. If all of them are "terriorists" then if our cities were invaded by such cruel empire, we could only be cattle ? Or serving their army like somebody ? Or peacefully demonstrate and get killed ?

Last edited by antheonoileo; 2006-12-03 at 00:24.
antheonoileo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 06:02   Link #86
demonik
I like cheese...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Well, i'm not exactly good with long posts...so to summarize in 1 sentence.

Isn't Lelouch playing into the Emperor(his father's) hand? He is competing against the emperor's ideal empire with his, the better man wins and evolution conquers.
-For Suzaku, i would like to see more of him in action before i comment. I'd agree that he's become 'kira' like in a sense, which somewhat ruins the depth of his character. Need more emoness from him
demonik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 07:26   Link #87
evil|plushie
The Last Frontier
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
No emoness. ;p. But suzaku needs serious char. development. We all know why Lelouch feels the way he does and does things the way he does but why does Suzaku feel the way he does? It's a mystery.
__________________
God is on the side with the biggest cannon.

http://sining83.blogspot.com
evil|plushie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 07:46   Link #88
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonik View Post
Well, i'm not exactly good with long posts...so to summarize in 1 sentence.

Isn't Lelouch playing into the Emperor(his father's) hand? He is competing against the emperor's ideal empire with his, the better man wins and evolution conquers.
And he should care because ? He want's his father(along with the rest(most) of family) 6ft under. Partly to avenge his mother, partly to ensure safety for his siter. He could care less wether his father dies with smile on his lips or cursing him in a bloody rage - as long as he is gone Lulu has achieved his goal.
__________________
Skyfall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 08:42   Link #89
Owaranai Destiny
Nick of Time~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Guze no Sekai
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Owaranai Destiny Send a message via MSN to Owaranai Destiny
For Suzaku, the best thing for him to do would be to gain power. So far, I think it's painfully apparent that there isn't much progress, save for his recent exploits with the terrorists, so we can't really say too much about him being a complete idealist. It's too early, and there's too little development on his part, be it part of character development or the plot itself.
Owaranai Destiny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 12:56   Link #90
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Set an example for what ? For the fact that an 11 can serve well for the empire army even if it means pointing the gun to his people ? Or that they can live together peacefully like the cowboys and their cattle, where the cattle are still loyalty even he is about to be executed (and seeing many of his fellows - innocent or not - executed) ? I dunno that he went back is really right or wrong decision, but I do agree with that choice, which doesn't mean that I agree with his whole "choice"

Yes, the only reason that makes him join the army is because we need an action hero here. Technically speaking (borrowing from the one in previous posts ^_^), it is like impossible for a solder not to make any calsualty, especially fighting in a city then those may include both enemy and innocents. (@ Bahamut89: Besides, according to your post then the "enemy" is the enemy of Britanian -> his enemy is the enemy of the Britanian empire ?)

And it seems I need to repeat that the reason why he only killed a few "enemy" people is just because of the producer's will. It's micracle (=producer's will) that he can keep this till the end. I think he is even more "godlike" than Kira as even the type of "defending" Kira still has to kill a lot, while this "attacking" Suzaku doesn't ^_^
Well said. Possibly the most common excuse for people serving totalitarian regimes who are in somewhat important positions is "I am trying to change things from within the system" which in 99% of the cases means "I want to live a comfortable life and the ends justify the means, so I am happy to serve this tyrant". Suzaku's strategy would never work in the real world, he would end up hated by both sides and faced with impossible choices every other day. Whatever he does, only a miracle (in other words a badly written script) would make his "example" meaningful for anyone other than himself.

Quote:
I dont know, but there must have been some other avenues of choice to take other than just choosing the army. I mean, what about becoming a politician, an influential talk show host, a famous scientist? All these occupations carry some weight, so it's ridiculous to think that a person would try and carry out 'peaceful' change by joining the army. Especially when you know that the army has been used to kill civilians and enemy countries. Of course, it's even worse when if you think about it enough, you'll end up realising that to get anywhere in the army, you'll have to actually condone the current actions of the army and perhaps even perform some of those said actions. So in reality, not only would one be selling away their moralistic principles in doing so, but also end up becoming one of those they hated.

But then again, I forget that this is an anime and that Suzaku is a Kira so it'll probably work out (miraculously) for him in the end through the power of lancelots plot-twisting mechanism.
Exactly. Things almost always work out in the end for characters like Suzaku, never mind the number of mistakes they make or the fact that they are usually completely out of touch with reality.
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'

Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 16:30   Link #91
Darkeyesrina
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Send a message via AIM to Darkeyesrina Send a message via MSN to Darkeyesrina
First post I made hear, eventhough I have been reading all the threads and posts (blame it to my 11 hour work schedule in front of a PC) ever since episode 2.

Personally I think both Suzaku and Lelouch are obtaining both of their goals on their own ways.

Suzaku got ascended to Lieutenant (which is maybe the first 11 to get ascended to an officer position in the Brittanian Army), has the complete support (and maybe heart) of Vice-Governor/Princess Euphemia, and possiblely got the respect of Governor/Princess Cornelia after what he did on episode 8. So you could say that his moral principles are actually working for him with a great deal of good luck.

Meanwhile, after watching episode 8.5 and the preview summaries from episode 9/10, we can also say that Lelouch has obtained his first goal. Now he has the support of the Eleven population and a few nobles (and most likely the ability to blackmail them too). It may still not be enough to bring the entire royal family to Japan but I think he will get there. So Lelouch moral principle's are also working thanks to his hard work and intelligence.

I think we will all love to see the first confrontation between Lelouch and Suzaku in equal standings (Lelouch's planning & Karen's Red Lotus VS Cornelia's planning & Suzaku's Lancelot) in episode 10 which will be a nice confrontation of principles/power.

Finally I just have a question about the Emperor's plan. Most people says that Lelouch is following his father's plan for succession/evolution. But personally I think the Emperor might think of Lelouch as a leap/jump in his evolution plan since instead of using his daddy's army and money/resources, Lelouch is actually building his army and power by himself. Don't you think at one point the Emperor might try to help Lelouch (even return him his prince status) or even limit his other sons/daughters to make the "evolution" work faster and more efficiently?
Darkeyesrina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 16:42   Link #92
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkeyesrina View Post

Suzaku got ascended to Lieutenant (which is maybe the first 11 to get ascended to an officer position in the Brittanian Army), has the complete support (and maybe heart) of Vice-Governor/Princess Euphemia, and possiblely got the respect of Governor/Princess Cornelia after what he did on episode 8. So you could say that his moral principles are actually working for him with a great deal of good luck.
Which is all worth nothing. He is now LT? What of it? Cornelia knows that she can depend on him during missions? What of it? His goal is to change how the system works from the inside => changing the views of the ruling family, where no one gives a rats arse about any one, let alone some puny Lt 11 who has proven he can be usefull in missions.

As far as we know only Euphemia support/shares his beliefs to some extent, which in current situation is also probably worth next to nothing. Suzaku's approach to the situation is unreasonable and unrealistic given the current situation in the ruling family. We saw the emperor - you really think he cares about some trash LT, or even about his own daughter(Euphemia)?
__________________
Skyfall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-03, 16:45   Link #93
Xellos-_^
Not Enough Sleep
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkeyesrina View Post
First post I made hear, eventhough I have been reading all the threads and posts (blame it to my 11 hour work schedule in front of a PC) ever since episode 2.

Personally I think both Suzaku and Lelouch are obtaining both of their goals on their own ways.

Suzaku got ascended to Lieutenant (which is maybe the first 11 to get ascended to an officer position in the Brittanian Army), has the complete support (and maybe heart) of Vice-Governor/Princess Euphemia, and possiblely got the respect of Governor/Princess Cornelia after what he did on episode 8. So you could say that his moral principles are actually working for him with a great deal of good luck.

Meanwhile, after watching episode 8.5 and the preview summaries from episode 9/10, we can also say that Lelouch has obtained his first goal. Now he has the support of the Eleven population and a few nobles (and most likely the ability to blackmail them too). It may still not be enough to bring the entire royal family to Japan but I think he will get there. So Lelouch moral principle's are also working thanks to his hard work and intelligence.

I think we will all love to see the first confrontation between Lelouch and Suzaku in equal standings (Lelouch's planning & Karen's Red Lotus VS Cornelia's planning & Suzaku's Lancelot) in episode 10 which will be a nice confrontation of principles/power.

Finally I just have a question about the Emperor's plan. Most people says that Lelouch is following his father's plan for succession/evolution. But personally I think the Emperor might think of Lelouch as a leap/jump in his evolution plan since instead of using his daddy's army and money/resources, Lelouch is actually building his army and power by himself. Don't you think at one point the Emperor might try to help Lelouch (even return him his prince status) or even limit his other sons/daughters to make the "evolution" work faster and more efficiently?

I think at best the emperor is going to let supporters of lulu like the Ashford know that he doesn't mind them supporting lulu. Making it easier for lulu to get allies.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-07, 12:10   Link #94
caixiaoshan
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
what Lelouch believes and what the Britannia Emperor believes can co-exist to a certain extend.

in fact, looking directly into Britannia Emperor's point of view, there is nothing wrong with it, except that it is opposite to popular believes. but isn't it true that for humans, their goal of life is to be better than others? even those trying to achieve equality, are trying to control the world, thus trying to be superior to the world in some way. even when people argue about something, they are trying to be better, to take control...humans are born to compete, to achieve inequality in some form, that is the truth...forget all those common sense...they by themselves don't make sense...that's why they have to be common in order to make sense...^O^

what Lelouch is against seems to be whatever the Emperor believes, but step back some, and we might consider him fighting against the limiting of people's opportunity to compete, as he said: the ones that have the right to shoot are the ones who have the preparation to be shot. This statement is basically saying that, if one wants to compete, he must compete with opponents with same opportunities(equipments). it also justifies fighting: if you are prepared to be shot by your opponent, you can shoot him...which then justifies Lelouch's believe that the way to end war can be having someone to win. a fairly good example would be gundam SEED, as always...The ArchAngel Terrorists had stopped many major battles to prevent deaths, while those major battles are the ones that could end the war...so they actually caused more deaths and sufferings in the future...If no one wins, peace would be short, as long as the opposite sides exists.

i think someone on the first page had said that the believe that the way to end fight is to have someone winning is wrong...it might be an unpleasant believe to most people, i do realize that. but is it really wrong? is having someone winning really the bad way to end fight? or maybe we should ask, is there any other way to TRUELY end a fight?

Last edited by caixiaoshan; 2006-12-07 at 12:13. Reason: spelling error
caixiaoshan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-08, 05:31   Link #95
lade
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Hi,

I'm new here, but I've been following Code Geass since the first episode and this is my opinion on the matter of morality under discussion.In my opinion Lelouch and suzaku are two extreme ideals which while having their pros, also have cons

Lelouch is right in the fact that if any other outside of britannia including himself are to have any semblance of a chance to prosper or grow, something has to give in britannia, from my opinion like evry other expanding empire it is a parasite on those it subjugates, no truer is this seen but in episode 9 , kallen's mother is the maid , she probably stayed so she could be around kallen, and her eventual turning to drugs to escape her pitiful existence is proof that britannia is or has beome a cancer to them , robbing them of their will to survive.
Lelouch can see this or has already noticed it in his own similarly precarious existence with is sister that is currently under threat as well.Suzaku can afford to be an idealist , he is not in a situation entirely without hope or poverty , those folks are. If we wanted an honest opinion of life for japanese they would be a truer example than suzaku who is lobbying for acceptance but refuses to accept the reality that those in power are amoral, the people of britannia long used to being in power are elitist who see those they conquer as subhuman, thus poor living conditions and ease with purges that soldiers carry out when called when called to do so is proof of this. In this regard I agree with lelouch , the situation is damning and won't change simply by perserverance , britannia will simply find new thresholds to cross in intolerance, fighting at this stage is the only way out but his views and goals have their own extreme flaws, britannia is a world super power, to crush them as is his goal will require a massive world wide counterstrike every non-britannian fighting britannia ,nothing less at this point will do (the world would have to concentrate it's forces to fight them at their current stage ) this should not be too hard, britannia as mentioned above treat those they conquer contemptiously , there is no love lost there, those yet to be conquered are wary of britannia and would most likely join in the rebeliion to prevent being assimilated by them , so finding support beyond those conquered and oppressed won't be much of a problem, if things as of episde 9 keep up but what he is asking for is an armageddon, a fight to the finish , no retreat , no surrender , no compromises is probably what will play out a desperate fight for indepence by the would , survival by britannia.Everyone giving it their all , if this scenario plays out , as is his intention it will be nothing less than apocalypse, because both sides with nothing to lose will go all out with everything they've got, a fact he mentions to himself as his contemplates his new action (OOBK ),

This too can not be an option , it will end with either complete extinction of the human race if things go the way I suggested earlier , a genocidal purge of britannians by vengeful countries they conquered if they lose or otherwise to everyone else if they win. This all or nothing scenario can't be allowed to play out either.

Which makes surprisingly suzaku and euphemia the only hopeful path left to the world, lelouch's path to victory will almost certainly destroy it if, his goals are as set as he planned the minute he began his campaign .

In a family of degenerates(lelouch included), euphemia is the only humane member and she can most likely bring change but the presence of more aggressive simblings limits her chance to be anywhere near effective in her priciples for the future, she is most likely the weakest if not the one ithe most heart.The only path I see to a good ending the entire family EXCEPT her is wiped, that includes leouch , he can be complteley amoral if not amoral 24/7 so I don't see him as being better that cordelia or the rest, leaving the path clear for her ascension to the throne, it wuld also help if lelouch at least cripples their military engine enough for her to get it under control and and like suzaku says change the attitudes and policies of britannia from, within, an econmic power britannia cvan remain but their military has to be crushed or crippled at the very least.

This is my take on the matter.
lade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 05:20   Link #96
bond4154
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Lelouch's intentions go no further than vengeance. It is not a case about liberating Japan, or making the world a better place without the Empire. The only thing he cares about is revenge. That in itself isn't a bad thing, but I just wanted to bring up that getting even is his only intention.

...Oh, by the way, I'm new here, and this is my first post. Kind greetings and fair tidings to all of you.

I haven't bothered to read what has been posted above, but Lelouch is definitely intelligent. He's an excellent chess player with a good intellect, and cultured in, mind me, treacherous court politics. Here's an Empire is holding territories in at least the Americas, Southeastern Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. There is no real conventional way for them to fight against an Empire with practically no resources. Let's just, however, assume for a moment that they did. Lelouch manages to contact rebellions worldwide and wage a war against the Britannian Empire. Let's even say that they won. What then?

This brings me back to a scene in Jet Li's Hero. Jet Li plays the role of a minor Chinese official during the rise of the Qin Dynasty, when the first Emperor of China first united China and created the first dynasty of China, the Qin Dynasty. The character that he plays, however, seeks vengeance against the Qin Emperor because he was recruited from a kingdom that Qin had conquered, and has allied himself with three famous fugitives with similar sentiments. Nearing the end of the movie, when Jet Li is close to killing the Qin Emperor, however, he remembers that, on the evening before he was to embark on his mission to kill the Emperor, one of the fugitives wrote two words in Chinese: "Tian Xia". It literally means "under the sky", but in this context, it basically means China, or the mortal world. The fugitive was asking Jet's character what would happen if he managed to kill the Qin Emperor.

The same goes for Code Geass. We continue under the assumption that Lelouch manages to succeed. Britannia has fallen, the Emperor is dead. Everyone celebrates for the first few days or so. Then what happens?

Complete chaos. As Lelouch has said before, Britannia commands a third of the world's population, presumably the developed third. Such a power has not yet existed in our world; not the United States, the Chinese, or even the Romans had ever achieved power on the scale that Britannia has succeeded in taking.

What fills the political vacuum when Britannia falls? That's the hard question that will soon be asked. What's going to happen to all the territories that Britannia had once held? Regional skirmishes will begin in the form of territorial feuds, which will ignite into wars. Rebellions, filled with former Britannian die-hard veterans, will be incited. Other nations, seeing the fall of Britannia, will attempt to push for political supremacy. The world will be thrown into complete, utter, political chaos.

Here's the deal: Lelouch probably knows this.

Lelouch is intelligent, and was educated in court politics. A person of his intellect and educational background should know that this will happen. Which really signifies two things. Either Lelouch doesn't give a damn about what happens to the world as long as Britannia falls, or Lelouch is too consumed by hatred and pain to even see that far ahead.

I'm not saying whether or not his morality is right or wrong. It could be both. But it's certainly not going to lead to anything good.

Suzaku, so far, gives the impression of a kid who never grew up correctly. It's actually kind of funny, because Suzaku is attempting to give the exact opposite impression of what the Japanese army did in World War II. Forgive easily, try to change things for the better; Suzaku is attempting to come off as a philanthropist. Still, Suzaku is much too naive, which really does not make me think of Kira when I think of him. True, there's the Coordinator/Eleven and the miss-the-cockpit thing. At the same time, however, Kira's conviction was pretty simple at first: Protect my friends. That is not Suzaku's initial conviction. Suzaku isn't even serious about trying to change the Britannian Empire. He's very passive in his role, and hasn't actually done much except follow the Empire's orders. Exactly how he intends to change the Empire with his current track record puzzles me. I think I can expect a lot more from him, though.

...From a certain perspective, though, Lelouch reminds me of Kira and CC of Ryuk from Death Note. XD
bond4154 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 09:46   Link #97
evil|plushie
The Last Frontier
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Hmm, I do not think Lelouch intends to destroy the world or allow the world to be destroyed in any case. Remember, his goal is to provide a world that is safe enough for Nanali to live in and that means that there can't be too much global chaos/wars. As such, he may be intending to become the new king to create this world of his or plan for the creation of such a system.
__________________
God is on the side with the biggest cannon.

http://sining83.blogspot.com
evil|plushie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 10:54   Link #98
JediNight
キズランダム
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Quote:
Lelouch's intentions go no further than vengeance. It is not a case about liberating Japan, or making the world a better place without the Empire. The only thing he cares about is revenge. That in itself isn't a bad thing, but I just wanted to bring up that getting even is his only intention.
This is a good point. Lelouche doesn't really care about liberating Japan per se. We can see that much in his treatment of the resistance movement. If they want to cooperate with him fine, otherwise they are in the way and will be disposed of. He just happens to live in Japan, so his immediate way to begin making Brittania pay is to make them sink lots of resources into holding onto Japan, and killing as many "guilty" members of the royal family as he can.

I think he drew an important line when he let Euphemia go. I know that it suits his goals with the public, because it differentiates the Black Knights from terrorists with treating Britannians and Japanese equally, but I still don't think he would have killed Euphemia even if it didn't go with his plans. She hasn't done anything wrong/evil, and is just as "innocent" as Lelouche then in regards to wanting revenge.
JediNight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 10:58   Link #99
Darkeyesrina
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Send a message via AIM to Darkeyesrina Send a message via MSN to Darkeyesrina
Welcome to the forums Bond.

Personally, I find it hard to read Lelouch and Kira on the same sentence. In GS, Kira was a protector on the first part (my favorite part), and then turned into a balanced force that wanted to stop the sense-less killing and not making the world white and black. I don't consider GSD worth talking.

I think Lelouch's original idea was to help create a country (taking Japan) that will be under his principles and be safe enough from any outside attacks following the guidelines that people mentioned here. But I honestly hope that Lelouch will change to a less radical position thanks to all the people around him. Watching Kallen's mother and her reaction was a bit shocking for him since he knew now why was she fighting for now.

Finally, I do think that we will see the end of the series with Lelouch getting hold of Japan, but I do believe that neither Suzaku or Nunnaly will stick with him as they will look for their own path.
Darkeyesrina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 11:04   Link #100
JediNight
キズランダム
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Yeah, I don't see this series wrapping up nice and tidy either. The entire point of the show so far has been to show the viewers how there are no absolutes in the world.

I think the shocking point to Lelouch later on may be realizing he's become what he hates, and played directly into the Emperor's hand. The Emperor wants the strongest to succeed the family, even if that means killing each other. So Lelouch doing this and lets say he does take over Brittania -- he is a successor by force and the "strongest" and I don't think the Emperor would feel anguish over "revenge" at all. I think he would actually quite pleased and happy with Lelouch.
JediNight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.