Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

This is the same problem I had with the Foundation saga. Even supposing it's tens of thousands of years in the future, how would spacefaring humans forget where their homeworld was? I mean, wouldn't any starmap made by the first spacefaring humans have a huge blinking blue dot that says EARTH on it? Ledo says as much, for the people of the Allliance, the Earth is just a legend to them. It doesn't make any sense. It's the HOMEWORLD OF THE HUMAN RACE! It's the POINT OF ORIGIN FOR ALL YOUR STARMAPS!

I mentioned this idea in one of the secondary threads. Perhaps Ledo and his fellow soldiers have been lied to about the Alliance not knowing about Earth's location and Chamber has been programmed without that information.

Remember, Ledo is a soldier who's not even a full citizen in the Alliance. Chamber is an information storage unit among other things. Would you send these two and their compatriots into battle with knowledge of where your homeworld is located if you didn't have to? What if they're captured and that knowledge is extracted by your enemy? You've just condemned your homeworld. Better to raise your soldier whom you've had since birth to believe that the homeworld's location has been lost. Better to not program the homeworld's location in your AI's star map. In other words, don't give your soldiers any information that may be used against you beyond what is necessary for them to conduct your war.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Part of Chamber's first explanation of the Hideauze was that coexistence with them was impossible. So, yeah, I don't know what that vocabulary mishap later was about.

And of course it's absolutely impossible that the writers made an error in that early episode by making Chamber use the wrong word. The error must be in the plot relevant explanation that happened later, right?

Originally Posted by LKK

I mentioned this idea in one of the secondary threads. Perhaps Ledo and his fellow soldiers have been lied to about the Alliance not knowing about Earth's location and Chamber has been programmed without that information.

Remember, Ledo is a soldier who's not even a full citizen in the Alliance. Chamber is an information storage unit among other things. Would you send these two and their compatriots into battle with knowledge of where your homeworld is located if you didn't have to? What if they're captured and that knowledge is extracted by your enemy? You've just condemned your homeworld. Better to raise your soldier whom you've had since birth to believe that the homeworld's location has been lost. Better to not program the homeworld's location in your AI's star map. In other words, don't give your soldiers any information that may be used against you beyond what is necessary for them to conduct your war.

Wait, that doesn't make sense. Do you think that the Machine Calibers don't have information about Avalon and its location? We know they do, and that's what's actually important to them rather than a forgotten planet.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And of course it's absolutely impossible that the writers made an error in that early episode by making Chamber use the wrong word. The error must be in the plot relevant explanation that happened later, right?

I don't know why you're so determined to cast the GA as irredeemable bad guys who do things for the evulz, but whatever.

I think the ideas behind those explanations aren't contradictory. They've determined that the Hideauze have to go, or they do. And as for the inter-human relations... They have so little margin, the idea of not coexisting and cooperating hardly comes up.

[andyjay729]

Originally Posted by LKK

I mentioned this idea in one of the secondary threads. Perhaps Ledo and his fellow soldiers have been lied to about the Alliance not knowing about Earth's location and Chamber has been programmed without that information.

Remember, Ledo is a soldier who's not even a full citizen in the Alliance. Chamber is an information storage unit among other things. Would you send these two and their compatriots into battle with knowledge of where your homeworld is located if you didn't have to? What if they're captured and that knowledge is extracted by your enemy? You've just condemned your homeworld. Better to raise your soldier whom you've had since birth to believe that the homeworld's location has been lost. Better to not program the homeworld's location in your AI's star map. In other words, don't give your soldiers any information that may be used against you beyond what is necessary for them to conduct your war.

I think that's something everyone needs to recall before repeating that Ledo knows so much more about the squids than the Gargantians and they're all pacifist hippie fools for doubting him. (Bolding mine.)

Not that I disagree with those people saying the Avatar/Pocahontas/Dances with Wolves route has been done a trillion and one times before and in better fashion. But given the amount of control the Alliance has over him and how Ledo's been indoctrinated by them literally from day one, I don't think it's wise to take his core beliefs at face value.

For that matter, it doesn't need to have the Alliance be EEEVUL per se, but instead, well, like Kyubey. (Like I've been saying, Gen doesn't seem to have the highest opinion of utilitarianism.) Perhaps the squids were some sort of lab mutation gone awry (maybe the clean up pollution on Earth or something), and so the Alliance is trying to clean up a mess. Think of them as like the EPA fighting Godzilla, heh.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Part of Chamber's first explanation of the Hideauze was that coexistence with them was impossible. So, yeah, I don't know what that vocabulary mishap later was about.

Blame the translator.
The latter word "co-existing, co-prosperity" is a single word that's a combination of both meanings.
(共存共栄 instead of 共存 & 共栄)

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And of course it's absolutely impossible that the writers made an error in that early episode by making Chamber use the wrong word. The error must be in the plot relevant explanation that happened later, right?

They did not. (points above)

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait, that doesn't make sense. Do you think that the Machine Calibers don't have information about Avalon and its location? We know they do, and that's what's actually important to them rather than a forgotten planet.

Do we know that the Machine Calibers know where Avalon is located? They know where their home base is located in order to know where to return to after a mission. But do they know where Avalon itself is? If Ledo had been able to go to Avalon like he was supposed to, would Chamber be his transport vehicle (a waste of Machine Caliber resources in my opinion) or would he travel in another vehicle from the base to Avalon?

Also, although I haven't said this anywhere yet, I'm not convinced that Avalon exists. I don't trust anything Ledo or Chamber have said about the Alliance, its current situation, or its history. I'm not going to believe what a soldier indoctrinated since birth or a computer programmed by that soldier's superiors says until their statements have been independently verified. The source of their information is too untrustworthy at this point.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't know why you're so determined to cast the GA as irredeemable bad guys who do things for the evulz, but whatever.

If that was true I would have agreed with Paranoid Android that the alliance wants to annihilate everything, and I didn't.

Why don't you try to look at the situation objectively rather than assuming that everyone else is biased?

There must be a reason if "co-prosperity through co-existence" (thanks Aohige) was explained to be an alien concept to the Alliance. I think it's not just me if I say that the writers wanted to tell us something with that.

Do we know that the Machine Calibers know where Avalon is located?

Well... the first sequence of the first episode shows us a lot of information about Avalon with details on its structure and so on, and that wasn't just for the sake of the audience it was actually something that was shown to Ledo by Chamber. I would be really surprised if the location wasn't included, at any rate that's still information that could be used by the enemy.

But in the first place if the alliance worried about that, it would mean that they recognize that the Hideauze are sentient beings.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by andyjay729

For that matter, it doesn't need to have the Alliance be EEEVUL per se, but instead, well, like Kyubey. (Like I've been saying, Gen doesn't seem to have the highest opinion of utilitarianism.) Perhaps the squids were some sort of lab mutation gone awry (maybe the clean up pollution on Earth or something), and so the Alliance is trying to clean up a mess. Think of them as like the EPA fighting Godzilla, heh.

Which changes absolutely nothing to the present situation. A lot of people have been focused on how it started, or rather, who started it. They want a culprit. I think it doesn't matter. "Co-existence is impossible". That's the basis on the GA's policy regarding the Hideauze. It's about the present, not the past. Maybe it's the truth, maybe it isn't, maybe the brass actually believes that, maybe they don't, but that's what has to be examined. Where the Hideauze come from, whether the humans are the original aggressors or not... they're not practical concerns.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If that was true I would have agreed with Paranoid Android that the alliance wants to annihilate everything, and I didn't.

Why don't you try to look at the situation objectively rather than assuming that everyone else is biased?

Well, objectively, Ledo and Chamber, pure products of the GA that they are, aren't that bloody-minded. They don't hold back when they have a clearly defined enemy, but they don't go out of their way to exterminate whoever's the least bit different from them. So, yeah, I do have a problem seeing them, or the GA, as some kind of space nazis, despite the terrible choices Ledo says they've had to make.

There must be a reason if "co-prosperity through co-existence" (thanks Aohige) was explained to be an alien concept to the Alliance. I think it's not just me if I say that the writers wanted to tell us something with that.

But that's not the only thing they find alien. Ledo also doesn't "get" the mercantilism of the Gargantians. Or the inter-human fighting. To him, humanity must stand together, and largely does. And people do what needs doing because it needs doing (rather desperately, in general), not because they'll get petty baubles out of it. In a context like that, is it surprising that "co-prosperity through co-existence" is unknown?

Or yes, maybe it's another story out to present science and industrialisation as terrible things that must be shunned. We must embrace nature, even those bits of it that are the ebola virus. And giving our money to pirates is totally the way to get them to renounce their ways and become productive members of society.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, objectively, Ledo and Chamber, pure products of the GA that they are, aren't that bloody-minded. They don't hold back when they have a clearly defined enemy, but they don't go out of their way to exterminate whoever's the least bit different from them. So, yeah, I do have a problem seeing them, or the GA, as some kind of space nazis, despite the terrible choices Ledo says they've had to make.

Like I said, I don't think that they are bloodthirsty exterminators, but I do think that we have enough evidence to conclude that they don't see any value in co-existing with anyone that is different from them.

Apart from the lack of a term that explains the concept, we have many other hints. Like the fact that Chamber and Ledo automatically wanted the Gargantians to "join" the alliance, to which they reacted pretty badly, to the surprise of the formers.

And yes they do have a Nazi mentality, a Nazi mentality isn't just "exterminate the jews". Perhaps you should watch "the wave" if you didn't already, as it explains it very well.

For example the alliance doesn't recognize the sovereignty of other human factions, it's either them or "wanderers", which Ledo doesn't seem to hold in any particular regard.

The concept of inter-human fighting isn't alien to them and Ledo has absolutely no qualms about annihilating an entire human faction if he deems it necessary.

[Xellos-_^]

i really just hope this show doesn't devolve into another preach "can't we all just get along" show.

[Paranoid Android]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

i really just hope this show doesn't devolve into another preach "can't we all just get along" show.

I wonder if Chamber will go bat-shit crazy if that happens.

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Are you and I the only ones thinking this?

Pretty much. but at this point in the show episode 8 out of 12-13(?) compared to where the plot is now (at about episode 5 in terms of a 24-26 episode series) at this point it just doesn't even matter, I know this is already going to end bad. . .well its been bad but I mean worse than it has been. there's so many important plot threads to go down that the show doesn't have the time to go down that I just don't care about it anymore.

Gen should have been writing all episodes of this show. It would be a lot more coherent, but instead it just looks like a money grab, using gen's name and putting two eps of fanservice, combined with a FULL EPISODE of the funeral. that's like 3 episodes out of 13 wasted. The little character development that happened in 13 could have been done in a lot less time with only a 3-5 minute focus on the funeral. I have NEVER seen a funeral seen last a whole episode. ever.

[andyjay729]

Say what you will about /a/, there are some people who say some intelligent there once in a while. Recently one guy compared Pinion with Captain Ahab. Do you think that sounds fitting?

And I seriously have to wonder if there'll be some Lovecraft homages later on. (Hey, even Disney's Little Mermaid had its ending lifted directly from Call of Cthulhu.)

[Iron Maw]

After rewatching the episode a second time under a different mindset, I think I'm appreciating a bit better now.

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

Pretty much. but at this point in the show episode 8 out of 12-13(?) compared to where the plot is now (at about episode 5 in terms of a 24-26 episode series) at this point it just doesn't even matter, I know this is already going to end bad. . .well its been bad but I mean worse than it has been. there's so many important plot threads to go down that the show doesn't have the time to go down that I just don't care about it anymore.

I don't think this show has all that many plot threads. The Alliance and Hideauze are pretty much the biggest mysteries here and the former doesn't look like it will even factor if what Chamber says is true. So in reality it's just the Hideauze stuff and we're about to deal with that in couple of weeks.

However this could end up sadly anticlimactic if turns out this was all humanity fault and the are Hideauze held as saints or whatever.

Gen should have been writing all episodes of this show. It would be a lot more coherent, but instead it just looks like a money grab, using gen's name and putting two eps of fanservice, combined with a FULL EPISODE of the funeral. that's like 3 episodes out of 13 wasted. The little character development that happened in 13 could have been done in a lot less time with only a 3-5 minute focus on the funeral. I have NEVER seen a funeral seen last a whole episode. ever.

Man how many times does this have get brought up in these threads? Gen is in charge of Series Composition, in otherwords the Chief Writer. This is all his idea from a scripting standpoint, so your not going to like anymore if he were writing the individual episodes directly. I do kinda agree with your second point though, the pacing of this series has been very odd, but only ep 5 was really a waste. 6 and 8 at least had plot and character development in some ways. 5 was just silly and could have been used to build Fairlock and Ridget's relationship as well giving him some proper screentime instead focusing on fanservice. It certainly would helped in providing a stronger emotional effect for Fairlock's passing.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Are you and I the only ones thinking this? It seems to me that the majority of posters here believe that Ledo can annihilate the whole whalesquid population in one fell swoop with his mighty sword. It's obvious that he can't take them all on in one-on-one combat, as we have seen, since if one dies, a swarm will form. And then what? Does he really think he can take on a whole swarm all at once? By himself? That is, himself, Chamber, and his mighty sword?

And has he thought of the consequences? If a repeat of his first incident with a whalesquid happens, and a swarm comes after Ledo's new fleet, will Pinion and Co. power down the fleet so that the whalesquid swarm will leave them be? With Pinion in charge, what do you think? And what will happen then?

I might have been asleep at the keyboard, but I don't remember if it was ever demonstrated why the folks on Gargantia are so afraid of the whalesquid. There must have been at least one incident in the past where the whalesquids had devoured a whole fleet, or something to that effect, but I don't remember it being explicitly stated. There must have been something that led to the logical conclusion that powering down such a gigantic fleet as the Gargantia was the only option to withstanding an attack by the whalesquid.

Considering Hideauze are a galactic level threat....

[Unknown Soldier]

Seeing as how Chamber has already confirmed the DNA of the Whalesquids is identical to the DNA of the Space Squids, it's pretty obvious that humans created the Hideous. For what reason is unknown, but now they are waging a total Starship Troopers type warfare to exterminate them. Maybe the humans are just trying to clean up the mess they made? If they created the Hideous on Earth, brought them into space, accidentally allowed them to escape, multiply, and begin consuming the galaxy, they would have no choice but to try to exterminate them. Otherwise humanity is doomed wherever they are, in space or on the Earth.

It's questionable though why the Hideous on Earth seem content to leave the humans on the surface of the world ocean alone though, if they are aggressively encroaching and invading human territory in space as is explained at the beginning.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

It's questionable though why the Hideous on Earth seem content to leave the humans on the surface of the world ocean alone though, if they are aggressively encroaching and invading human territory in space as is explained at the beginning.

It boils down to energy. Gargantia don't produce energy themselves but merely recharges their batteries.

But if say they rediscover say nuclear power they'll be attacked as Hideauze are energy feeders.

Already they share a habitat in Sea Galaxy nanomachines.

Gargantians act like people in bear country. Don't spook the bears.

Avalon and its colonies are suburbia... They shoot bears.

[mikeomni]

Until the end comes, it's hard to see what the strategy was for writing this series. They start strong with Gen writing episode 1 then plan to end it with him as well. Feels a bit bait & switch where they try to cater to everyone by inserting a pirate face-off, slice of life, exposing more background of a wonderous world, add big-bad misunderstood enemy for tension, hints of eventual reconciliation.

I'm trying to imagine how the series strategy meeting went like an RPG Game Master closing off a campaign when guest GMs had to fill in the middle. "Okay, this was a foreshadowing for this. We'll make that meaningful by adding this. Put in a Shamylan twist for fun. Try not to go meta/Matrix/St. Elsewhere. Ok, ready, let's tie this off with a bang!"

This episode was okay for me. At least there was a reveal on Ledo's location. Just enough to keep me hanging around. Sometimes I want to yell at the screen, "you better not be wasting my time!" :-)

[Manji Midou]

so.....

This is totally out of context regarding the topic at hand, but....

Will we ever see the pirate queen evah again?

[sky black swordman]

^ I doubt it and I always assumed she died after her battle against Ledo.