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II Maestro · 2013-10-25, 04:27

What I meant is that Ise having a red dragon scales with horn like Great-Red while maintaining his human form.

I want Ise's body to at least stabilized but that would mean Ise would lose his fun time with Rias, Akeno, & Koneko(If possible she would go into Shirone mode) in order to stabilized his life force.

Somethindarker · 2013-10-25, 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Maestro

What I meant is that Ise having a red dragon scales with horn like Great-Red while maintaining his human form.

I want Ise's body to at least stabilized but that would mean Ise would lose his fun time with Rias, Akeno, & Koneko(If possible she would go into Shirone mode) in order to stabilized his life force.

A little thing like that won't stop any of the girls from spending time with him and if it did they'd just devise other ways to have special time with him.

Chris38 · 2013-10-25, 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Maestro

I want Ise's body to at least stabilized but that would mean Ise would lose his fun time with Rias, Akeno, & Koneko(If possible she would go into Shirone mode) in order to stabilized his life force.

Maybe, but as you probably should know, those scenes aren't even shown to us anymore - only mentioned, and I doubt that they will continue indefinitely.

Furthermore, I think this stabilization issue has been used by the author to limit Ise, so that he won't be able to defeat Rizevim, as soon as he has made an appearance in the story - now that we know what kind of abilities he has, there is no need to limit Ise anymore, especially considering the fact that there isn't anything else, apart from his Great Red / Ophis existence based powers, that could stand a chance against Rizevim and the other opponents that Ise might face in the future.

After all, the spoilers for volume 16 have shown that Ise's problem isn't the fact that he isn't capable of efficiently using his Sacred Gear powers, but that he starts to show some deficiency in his basic stats and he also needs some powers that are unrelated to his Sacred Gear if he wants to actually be capable of fighting Rizevim.

II Maestro · 2013-10-25, 04:53

Well its true that those scene aren't shown anymore but with the appearance of Mega Koneko I think we need that scene with Ise & Mega Koneko again.

Well Ise was weak to begin without the armor, but when he awaken his balance breaker his power increase significantly.

Ultragunner · 2013-10-25, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

If Ophis could take on Great Red 1v1 then why would she need the Khaos Brigade? I don't know about their fighting styles but personally Great Red is on a level waaaay above Ophis.

From my own perspective Azazel, while being really powerful, is more of a genius tactician. Being able to hold his own during the war just by strategy alone. Which is why he was the first to pull back and has the least interest in fighting. He knows it serves no purpose.

Yea that's pretty much the consensus here. With Ophis and Great Red as his parents I'm 80-90% sure that he's got insane power lying dormant now.

What I meant is though Ophis can fight Great Red, but she can never win alone.
In term of martial arts, you could say that Gods are masters, Ophis is a super master but Great Red is a hyper-ultra-super master

666 certainly seems ominous, maybe he's like the evil dragons that don't give a sh*t about anything but destruction, while Great Red has almost no concern for the world outside the Dimension Gap unless some foolish guy mess with him

Somethindarker · 2013-10-25, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

What I meant is though Ophis can fight Great Red, but she can never win alone.
In term of martial arts, you could say that Gods are masters, Ophis is a super master but Great Red is a hyper-ultra-super master

666 certainly seems ominous, maybe he's like the evil dragons that don't give a sh*t about anything but destruction, while Great Red has almost no concern for the world outside the Dimension Gap unless some foolish guy mess with him

To be honest Ophis is probably just a little weaker than Great Red OR she is the same strength and new that fighting him would kill both of them so she needed help to take him out.

That's my thought exactly. What I personally think is that Great Red is probably the same strength if not a little stronger than "666" and the only reason God from the bible didn't seal him is because either he doesn't pose a threat since he isn't inherently evil, he's needed to stabilize the dimensional gap or he was created by him to replace the now "corrupted" Ophis.

Ultragunner · 2013-10-25, 07:40

^ my thought exactly.

You could say they are in a completely different "dimension of existence" compared to others, or in other words "Transcendental Beings", and only other beings in the same "dimension" can actually inflict damage on them (True Longinus pierced right through Ophis's body but that didn't leave any damage). On the other hand, Samael in a sense is transcendental as well, but only against dragons.

Well, this has gone off topic quite a bit, don't you think

it_happens · 2013-10-25, 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

[I]
That's my thought exactly. What I personally think is that Great Red is probably the same strength if not a little stronger than "666" and the only reason God from the bible didn't seal him is because either he doesn't pose a threat since he isn't inherently evil, he's needed to stabilize the dimensional gap or he was created by him to replace the now "corrupted" Ophis.

there was also a theory that 666 and great red were one being who represents a dragon that was kicked out of heaven in the real bible - that goes with your claim that the god from the bible created 666, but maybe not created but just weakend. BUT it also depends if riz is trying to capture or kill great red

G147 · 2013-10-25, 07:45

What if Ophis avoided fighting against Great Red because she feared the destruction that the two could cause in their fight. The damage might not only be limited to the Human Realm, Underworld and Heaven but the Dimensional Gap too.

Chris38 · 2013-10-25, 07:47

@Somethindarker

While, I agree with you're statement, regarding Ophis and Great Red's power, I doubt that the two of them are going to actually fight with each other.

Since, just like Ise managed to end the conflict between Ddraig and Albion, due to his pervertedness, I think he is also going to end the conflict between Great Red and Ophis due to being ... their child.

After all, Ise's current body possesses some merged form of Great Red's and Ophis's existence ... and just like Ise wasn't able to access Albion's power as long as he and Ddraig opposed each other, I think that a similar issue might be the reason for his current bodies instability ... basically as long as Ophis and Great Red are in conflict with each other, Ise's body ... which contains both of their existence, won't become fully stable.

Ultragunner · 2013-10-25, 07:48

Actually I doubt that, she didn't really care about anything other than kicking Great Red out of there when she "created" the Khaos Brigade

Avento · 2013-10-25, 08:17

^ Agree. Before ophis met ise im pretty sure ophis doesnt care what happens to everyone else

G147 · 2013-10-25, 11:30

Ophis did care about her "home" the Dimensional Gap.

peinmaximus@ · 2013-10-25, 15:10

guys,for you the strongest being of the gods race is shiva?
and about ise can defeat azazel,I think that ise is already stronger than his sensei.azazel lose for cao cao in a battle in vol 11.he too not can defeat pluto and vali easily defeated this grim reaper.too for defeat grendel(in the spoilers of vol 16)he needed fight along with the gremory group(without ise) and ise in vol 14 almost defeated grendel alone.then ise is stronger than azazel.

obs: guys,about ophis,I think that in the next arc she will leave of be a mascot character and will fall completely for ise.I hope that she change her appearence for a oneesama with big oppais appearence.this will be amazing.too I think that lillith will be ise's queen(she is not god)and tiamat will be his knight.

Avento · 2013-10-25, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by peinmaximus@

and about ise can defeat azazel,I think that ise is already stronger than his sensei.azazel lose for cao cao in a battle in vol 11.he too not can defeat pluto and vali easily defeated this grim reaper.too for defeat grendel(in the spoilers of vol 16)he needed fight along with the gremory group(without ise) and ise in vol 14 almost defeated grendel alone.then ise is stronger than azazel.

1) Azazel lose to cao cao in vol 11 is mainly because of the element of surprise and aiming for azazel's weakspot. You have to remember that Azazel is mainly a researcher/scientist and not a warrior like barakiel. As Cao cao said in vol 12, Azazel is the type that research his opponent to the very limit and devise a perfect plan to counter them. Azazel lacks information on cao cao BB and his eye. Cao cao also said that the next time he will fight Azazel it would be very dangerous even for him.

2) Pluto is the strongest Grim reaper but even if he is the strongest he's not as strong as a god. Vali in his Empireo Juggernaut Overdrive could rival a god so of course pluto would lose. You have to remember that Vali can only used that form for a very short amount of time (for now anyway)

3) I dont think ise is stronger than azazel yet. Azazel is atleast have the same strength as a maou since he is the leader of the fallen angel. i dont think ise power lvl has reach maou class yet. Ultimate class, yes but maou class, no

Kutra · 2013-10-25, 16:21

Ise win against Shalba, a descendant of the old Maou Beelzebub, so I think he is already at Maou level when he is in CCQ mode.

kusabireika · 2013-10-25, 16:28

@Kutra actually shalba is weaker than new maou or vali's grandfather 0_0 and needed ophis power and some modification still didnt defeat issei ? in ccq mode

maybe issei is on the lvl below the new maou/vali's grandfather i think

and higher than old maou/except the 3rd super devil

GrrDraxin · 2013-10-25, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluestahli1

Ise's next power up Dress break V2 - now able to destroy the clothes of men

Naw, if Ise ever did that it would be called "Close Shave" Meaning that the technique would pluck all the hairs off an opponent, including their nose hairs. A very, very painful experience.

You know, when it comes to Ophis and Great Red, you have to take something into consideration.

Both of them are huge power houses, fighting is a somewhat foreign concept to both of them, as shown in volume 12. This is especially apparent for Ophis when she founded the Khaos Brigade. Fact is, she doesn't know how to fight at all. Thus she relies on others to do the fighting in her place, and she just provides them the power to do so on high tier levels. The same can be said of Great Red, since probably the first real fighting experience he's every had was when he fused with Ise to battle the jabberwocky.

When you think about it, both Ophis and Great Red are like kids that were born with guns in their hands (Or mutants who's powers were available from birth, for those who are familiar with X-Men). Anyone that they came across that tried to fight them were either ignored, or just obliterated in one shot. Not much challenge. So them fighting one another directly would either be total annihilation, or be exactly like how Ophis was "patting" Red in a pointless exercise in futility to defeat him in volume 12. Great Red probably thought it would be pointless to even react to Ophis's attempt as she probably was only mimicking how she's seen others fight, without knowing how to actually deal damage using her remaining power.

But one could say that they had an understanding as well that fighting then and there would not have done any good because of the events going on at the time. Ophis being a bit concerned for her new friend Ise, and Great Red getting tormented by the thoughts and dreams of frightened people of the Underworld. Both Ophis and Great Red deciding that the only way to regain peace of mind, would be to resurrect Ise to fight for the people and relieve them of their individual concerns. Though Great Red needing to take one more step and fuse with Ise to take out the jabberwocky because it looked at him funny. Thus giving Ise the impression of the biker gangster to apply to Great Red.

But, he, like Ophis simply didn't do any of the fighting himself, he gave someone else(Ise) the power to do so, without actually taking control. So if one were to take the power of those two away, put them into an arena and told them to fight it out, they would both be dumbfounded, and at a loss on HOW to do so. It would take a long time for them to LEARN how to hurt each other just to get to the point of an actual fight.

So at this point, Ophis saying she will fight Great Red is an empty threat. Even if she managed to kick him out of the Gap and return, she would probably leave it again just out of sheer boredom.

Kutra · 2013-10-25, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kusabireika

@Kutra actually shalba is weaker than new maou or vali's grandfather 0_0 and needed ophis power and some modification still didnt defeat issei ? in ccq mode

maybe issei is on the lvl below the new maou/vali's grandfather i think

and higher than old maou/except the 3rd super devil

Compare Ise with the super devils is unfair.

The super devils are in a level between maou and gods, maybe stronger than original Heavenly Dragons, so they are a different matter.

Ickarium · 2013-10-25, 17:31

Considering the three factions needed to work together to take down the two heavenly dragons, I doubt a super devil is stronger than they are. But that's my view.

Basically, my view until proven wrong is: Ophis/Great Red => Heavenly Dragons => Gods/Super Devils => Others.

2013-10-25, 04:27	Link #481
II Maestro Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Data World	What I meant is that Ise having a red dragon scales with horn like Great-Red while maintaining his human form. I want Ise's body to at least stabilized but that would mean Ise would lose his fun time with Rias, Akeno, & Koneko(If possible she would go into Shirone mode) in order to stabilized his life force. __________________

2013-10-25, 04:53	Link #484
II Maestro Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Data World	Well its true that those scene aren't shown anymore but with the appearance of Mega Koneko I think we need that scene with Ise & Mega Koneko again. Well Ise was weak to begin without the armor, but when he awaken his balance breaker his power increase significantly. __________________

2013-10-25, 07:40	Link #487
Ultragunner Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	^ my thought exactly. You could say they are in a completely different "dimension of existence" compared to others, or in other words "Transcendental Beings", and only other beings in the same "dimension" can actually inflict damage on them (True Longinus pierced right through Ophis's body but that didn't leave any damage). On the other hand, Samael in a sense is transcendental as well, but only against dragons. Well, this has gone off topic quite a bit, don't you think __________________

2013-10-25, 07:48	Link #491
Ultragunner Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Actually I doubt that, she didn't really care about anything other than kicking Great Red out of there when she "created" the Khaos Brigade __________________

2013-10-25, 08:17	Link #492
Avento Lone Wolf Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: everywhere	^ Agree. Before ophis met ise im pretty sure ophis doesnt care what happens to everyone else __________________ If you're going on a holiday, which would you prefer? The sea or mountain? I would pick both. The sea of blood and the mountain of corpses

2013-10-25, 07:45	Link #489
G147 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: earth	What if Ophis avoided fighting against Great Red because she feared the destruction that the two could cause in their fight. The damage might not only be limited to the Human Realm, Underworld and Heaven but the Dimensional Gap too.

2013-10-25, 07:47	Link #490
Chris38 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Poland Age: 38	@Somethindarker While, I agree with you're statement, regarding Ophis and Great Red's power, I doubt that the two of them are going to actually fight with each other. Since, just like Ise managed to end the conflict between Ddraig and Albion, due to his pervertedness, I think he is also going to end the conflict between Great Red and Ophis due to being ... their child. After all, Ise's current body possesses some merged form of Great Red's and Ophis's existence ... and just like Ise wasn't able to access Albion's power as long as he and Ddraig opposed each other, I think that a similar issue might be the reason for his current bodies instability ... basically as long as Ophis and Great Red are in conflict with each other, Ise's body ... which contains both of their existence, won't become fully stable.

2013-10-25, 11:30	Link #493
G147 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: earth	Ophis did care about her "home" the Dimensional Gap.

2013-10-25, 15:10	Link #494
peinmaximus@ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Brazil	guys,for you the strongest being of the gods race is shiva? and about ise can defeat azazel,I think that ise is already stronger than his sensei.azazel lose for cao cao in a battle in vol 11.he too not can defeat pluto and vali easily defeated this grim reaper.too for defeat grendel(in the spoilers of vol 16)he needed fight along with the gremory group(without ise) and ise in vol 14 almost defeated grendel alone.then ise is stronger than azazel. obs: guys,about ophis,I think that in the next arc she will leave of be a mascot character and will fall completely for ise.I hope that she change her appearence for a oneesama with big oppais appearence.this will be amazing.too I think that lillith will be ise's queen(she is not god)and tiamat will be his knight.

2013-10-25, 16:21	Link #496
Kutra Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Ise win against Shalba, a descendant of the old Maou Beelzebub, so I think he is already at Maou level when he is in CCQ mode.

2013-10-25, 16:28	Link #497
kusabireika Seiso Academy Student Graphic Designer Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Lanvaldear :)	@Kutra actually shalba is weaker than new maou or vali's grandfather 0_0 and needed ophis power and some modification still didnt defeat issei ? in ccq mode maybe issei is on the lvl below the new maou/vali's grandfather i think and higher than old maou/except the 3rd super devil __________________ W&G MAL

2013-10-25, 17:31	Link #500
Ickarium Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	Considering the three factions needed to work together to take down the two heavenly dragons, I doubt a super devil is stronger than they are. But that's my view. Basically, my view until proven wrong is: Ophis/Great Red => Heavenly Dragons => Gods/Super Devils => Others.