Aldnoah.Zero - generic discussion thread

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by chi4ko

[...]Hitler[...]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"
-Mike Godwin

[Ryuga]

I don't think he's being that selfless. Like I posted on the other page, Asseylum's visit and willingness to have good relations with Earth could've opened up an exchange of goods between the two planets (technology for Earth, food and resources for Mars). Though the UFE's shady, at the very least, they were willing to have Asseylum. Saazbaum sabotaged that potential opportunity because of his beef with the Royals for the first war that killed his wife.

What could have been a peaceful resolution got turned into a full blown war that's wiped out whole places clean off the map and resulted in many people's deaths. Saazbaum's not a good guy IMO.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Yep, just like wars do.

Which is what exactly?

They are killing billion of innocent people and that is the only thing you have to say?...facepalm

Are you meaning to say all German soldiers who fought in WWII should 'not get a free pass either' ?

All of them who were willingly taking part in killing civilists. All of them who were in high positions, like Slaine and his buddy Saaz.
War crimes ar war crimes.



I still don't get why you are so eager to downplay the genocide Saazbaum and Slaine are doing.
http://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide..._framework.pdf

[XFire]

Originally Posted by chi4ko

No matter how you look at it, Hitler was so war-happy because of inferiority issues and some weird beliefs of his, not selfishness.

Additionally, Saazbaum's goals are rather selfless, not selfish.

No, they're explicitly selfish. He started a war because he was jealous of Earth and because he hated the imperial family for how it manipulated him. Along side vengeance for his wife, which is frankly a stupid reason to restart the war that killed her in the first place.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

No matter how you look at it, Alexander was portrayed in a positive light in Fate/Zero. His biggest flows as a person as shown in the anime was that he was too pushy with Waver. I hope you watched it though?

No he wasn't.

He outright admits he got all his men killed for nothing and defines Hero as a tyrant who lives purely for his own satisfaction.

And then his appearance ends with Gilgamesh crushing everything he stands for in seconds.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Actions which Tatsuya takes indeed classify him as a villain, however, in Mahouka what he does is never shown as anything but 'a desired outcome'. Nobody questions the morality of his actions EVER. On the contrary, all throughout the series his actions are praised.

You didn't read anything past the first couple volumes, did you?

Most of the army people piss themselves on seeing him operate, his family thinks he's a monster, Erika thought he was going to kill her for asking questions, he's repeatedly called out on his emotionless logic, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Just like Hitler, that's what your logic would dictate, wouldn't it? Both are responsible for genociding millions of innocent people.

Now you've crossed the line from misinformed to blatant lies. I can only assume you're referring to his use of Material Burst, but last I checked "Invasion Fleet" =/= "Innocents".

Originally Posted by chi4ko

I get what you mean. Still I think 'a scapegoat' is a better term. This would be a shaky legal ground as we don't know the command structure of the Martian military.

No. A scapegoat is a fall guy, who is usually innocent or at least had a lesser role. Saazbaum explicitly put everything in motion by his own will, making him the primary instigator.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Yep, just like wars do.



Which is what exactly?

.........the war. He's responsible for the war. Without Saazbaum, there is no war. How are you not getting this?

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Are you meaning to say all German soldiers who fought in WWII should 'not get a free pass either' ?

They didn't. Everyone involved in the Holocaust and similar activities that the Allies got their hands on had an....unpleasant time. Including regular soldiers, who are normally not considered responsible for their orders.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

At least you get brownie points for referring to a specific incident.

You, on the other hand, get zero points in debating for trying to ignore a point by acting condescending.

[chi4ko]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

They are killing billion of innocent people and that is the only thing you have to say?...facepalm

I asked you what was the exact thing Saazbaum did that made you call him a war criminal. Will you be willing to answer?

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

All of them who were willingly taking part in killing civilists.

How do you make an assessment of that?

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

All of them who were in high positions, like Slaine and his buddy Saaz.

So a death or prison sentence for all those above a certain rank, regardless of deeds?
It's kind of funny to find someone who supports the idea of collective punishment in this day and age.

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

War crimes ar war crimes

Oniichan is oniichan. Ryouta-kun is Ryouta-kun. Maki-senpai is Maki-senpai etc. And your point?

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

http://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide..._framework.pdf

So what a risk assessment has to do with anything?

Originally Posted by XFire

No, they're explicitly selfish. He started a war because he was jealous of Earth and because he hated the imperial family for how it manipulated him. Along side vengeance for his wife, which is frankly a stupid reason to restart the war that killed her in the first place.

How is giving your nation a better standing a selfish goal?

Originally Posted by XFire

No he wasn't.

He outright admits he got all his men killed for nothing and defines Hero as a tyrant who lives purely for his own satisfaction.

No he was. The darker side of his warfare activities was brushed off as his personal failure. No actual attention was paid to the social context, morality, human costs of his conquest. No victim of his past actions was ever shown on screen. All the talk about kingship and conquest was symbolic in nature. Throughout the series Alexander is portrayed as a 'guy you'd like to be bros with'. You won't find any instance where he is vilified in the show.

Originally Posted by XFire

You didn't read anything past the first couple volumes, did you?

Most of the army people piss themselves on seeing him operate, his family thinks he's a monster, Erika thought he was going to kill her for asking questions, he's repeatedly called out on his emotionless logic, etc, etc.

So his 'coolness factor' was upgraded and? Doesn't change the fact that whatever immoral he may do (in the eyes of the audience) this will always be shown as 'good'.

Originally Posted by XFire

Now you've crossed the line from misinformed to blatant lies.

You are giving me way too much credit.

Originally Posted by XFire

I can only assume you're referring to his use of Material Burst, but last I checked "Invasion Fleet" =/= "Innocents".

So what is the evaporation of Zhenhai port and all its personnel, military or not, by a weapon of mass destruction anything but genocide? Gee, what does this remind one of?

Originally Posted by XFire

.........the war. He's responsible for the war. Without Saazbaum, there is no war. How are you not getting this?

Explain how the mere act of starting a war is a war crime? Maybe link to some definition? How are you not able to pay attention to what you're reading?

Originally Posted by XFire

They didn't. Everyone involved in the Holocaust and similar activities that the Allies got their hands on had an....unpleasant time.

Funny that every now and then I read about a guy who was finally tried as a 80-90 year old grandpa for cruel treatment of prisoners of this or that concentration camp. Because more evidence surfaced. Not to mention the ones who were guilty of war crimes in WWII and who fled to LA or elsewhere to die in peace never facing any repercussions. Wake up to the world you're living in.

Originally Posted by XFire

You, on the other hand, get zero points in debating for trying to ignore a point by acting condescending.

And this goes to you as well, good sire, for butting in into someone else's conversation to relieve your rage against your discussion partner.

P.S. Did calling your favourite character a genocider really hurt that much.

[chi4ko]

Originally Posted by Ryuga

I don't think he's being that selfless. Like I posted on the other page, Asseylum's visit and willingness to have good relations with Earth could've opened up an exchange of goods between the two planets (technology for Earth, food and resources for Mars). Though the UFE's shady, at the very least, they were willing to have Asseylum. Saazbaum sabotaged that potential opportunity because of his beef with the Royals for the first war that killed his wife.

I'm guessing all the information that is actually relevant in the series is dumped in side materials, which is a shame really. Hey, Saazbaum is just a realist. No way trading technology for primary goods would ever be a beneficial deal in the long run.

[DevilHighDxD]

Woah~ What happened here?

[Zantetsuken]

Someone really has a hard on for Count Sauce. He didn't start the war for the martians well being, he started it because he was bitter at the royalty. Why? Not because the they made live for martians sucks, but because their decision made his fiancée die. He explicitly said he started the war for vengeance yet some people are still saying he is selfless.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by chi4ko

I asked you what was the exact thing Saazbaum did that made you call him a war criminal. Will you be willing to answer?

He attempted to assassinate his own head of state, murdered his allies, bombed a civilian target without authorization, and deliberately defied the orders of someone of higher rank of him. Any more questions?

Originally Posted by chi4ko

How do you make an assessment of that?

I'll give you a hint. When someone starts stomping around laughing their ass off inside an invincible machine while destroying everything in sight, they're generally doing so of their own free will.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

So a death or prison sentence for all those above a certain rank, regardless of deeds?
It's kind of funny to find someone who supports the idea of collective punishment in this day and age.

For all those directly involved in the conspiracy, yes.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Oniichan is oniichan. Ryouta-kun is Ryouta-kun. Maki-senpai is Maki-senpai etc. And your point?

Nice. Very mature. Now put your hands over your ears and sing "Lalalalala" at the top of your lungs to complete the image.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

So what a risk assessment has to do with anything?

I do believe he was trying to convey the meaning of genocide to you, since you keep throwing it around without any apparent understanding.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

How is giving your nation a better standing a selfish goal?

It isn't. Revenge against both sides most certainly is though.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

No he was. The darker side of his warfare activities was brushed off as his personal failure. No actual attention was paid to the social context, morality, human costs of his conquest. No victim of his past actions was ever shown on screen. All the talk about kingship and conquest was symbolic in nature. Throughout the series Alexander is portrayed as a 'guy you'd like to be bros with'. You won't find any instance where he is vilified in the show.

Alexander regarded himself as a failure and explicitly said everything he tried to accomplish was meaningless. He was portrayed as a "failed hero" who was unable to accomplish anything in the end.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

So his 'coolness factor' was upgraded and? Doesn't change the fact that whatever immoral he may do (in the eyes of the audience) this will always be shown as 'good'.

Read what I write, dammit. The other characters don't admire him, they fear him. And the actual narrative has more than once commented on how twisted Tatsuya is.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

You are giving me way too much credit.

Whatever credit you had is completely gone, buddy.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

So what is the evaporation of Zhenhai port and all its personnel, military or not, by a weapon of mass destruction anything but genocide? Gee, what does this remind one of?

The military base? That was harboring a fleet of warships preparing to invade Japan? That isn't mentioned once to have a civilian presence?

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Explain how the mere act of starting a war is a war crime? Maybe link to some definition? How are you not able to pay attention to what you're reading?

Because of the way he did it. He murdered a member of his own royal family, or tried to but he fails as hard as Slaine at killing single targets. He has plenty of success dropping meteors on his own men, though, so he's got that going for him!

Originally Posted by chi4ko

Funny that every now and then I read about a guy who was finally tried as a 80-90 year old grandpa for cruel treatment of prisoners of this or that concentration camp. Because more evidence surfaced. Not to mention the ones who were guilty of war crimes in WWII and who fled to LA or elsewhere to die in peace never facing any repercussions. Wake up to the world you're living in.

...................

Originally Posted by Me

They didn't. Everyone involved in the Holocaust and similar activities that the Allies got their hands on had an....unpleasant time.

Reading. It's a thing. Start doing it.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

And this goes to you as well, good sire, for butting in into someone else's conversation to relieve your rage against your discussion partner.

P.S. Did calling your favourite character a genocider really hurt that much.

.................Are you faking this whole thing to troll us? Because if not, you need to watch Tropic Thunder for some advice.

Originally Posted by chi4ko

At least you get brownie points for referring to a specific incident.

Kind of obvious you were pointing that in the direction of everyone else who was arguing with you.

Also, not my favorite character. My favorite character is Arata from T7. Let me guess, he's a genocider, too?

I really hope not, because genocider isn't a word, unless you meant to say that Tatsuya is a Kamen Rider villain? In which case, wow, talk about an awkward misunderstanding.

[Dauerlutscher]

Oh man, this is getting ridiculous.
chi4ko, I don't know if you are just a troll, but I don't see how we can go further with this when you apparently ignore what I post, what characters are doing and what we can see in this anime.

[karice67]

^

I think his point is that some of you have to actually look into the definitions of "genocide" and "war crimes" etc in relation to real wars in human history. None of you have really done that.

E.g.

Originally Posted by XFire

He attempted to assassinate his own head of state, murdered his allies, bombed a civilian target without authorization, and deliberately defied the orders of someone of higher rank of him. Any more questions?

One item on this list can be found to be a war crime, depending on the circumstances. The crime I'd be charging Saaz with, however, isn't a 'war crime', it's treason.

Not that it'll matter if he 'wins'.


-----

NB: I don't want in on this debate, at all. So it's just two cents from someone who looks into this for a living...

[Dauerlutscher]

So killing millions of civilist is not a war crime, and trying to exterminate another group of humans is not genocide?

Saazbaum is responsible for this and Slaine is his minion. Is that not true? So who started this War in the first place? Who is the mastermind behind all that?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by karice67

^

I think his point is that some of you have to actually look into the definitions of "genocide" and "war crimes" etc in relation to real wars in human history. None of you have really done that.

E.g.

One item on this list can be found to be a war crime, depending on the circumstances. The crime I'd be charging Saaz with, however, isn't a 'war crime', it's treason.

Not that it'll matter if he 'wins'.


-----

NB: I don't want in on this debate, at all. So it's just two cents from someone who looks into this for a living...

Fair point. I'll go ahead and put them up now.

War Crimes - A war crime is a serious violation of the laws and customs of war (also known as international humanitarian law) giving rise to individual criminal responsibility.

Genocide - Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Though this definition sounds more like "hate crime" than what I was assuming.


Anyway, Saazbaum is guilty of both. War Crimes through his attacks on civilians and unnecessary destruction, and genocide because he's doing it with the intent of destroying "Terrans".

[azurestratos]

Originally Posted by XFire

Fair point. I'll go ahead and put them up now.

War Crimes - A war crime is a serious violation of the laws and customs of war (also known as international humanitarian law) giving rise to individual criminal responsibility.

Genocide - Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Though this definition sounds more like "hate crime" than what I was assuming.


Anyway, Saazbaum is guilty of both. War Crimes through his attacks on civilians and unnecessary destruction, and genocide because he's doing it with the intent of destroying "Terrans".

Mind I pitch in my cynicism?

+1 on very well written post on war crimes,

but to also note, its applicable to signatories of the convention only. For others non-signatories, think it as case of "outside the jurisdiction".

[XFire]

Originally Posted by azurestratos

Mind I pitch in my cynicism?

+1 on very well written post on war crimes,

but to also note, its applicable to signatories of the convention only. For others non-signatories, think it as case of "outside the jurisdiction".

Can't really take credit, I just looked up their legal definitions and posted them.

[Top Sergeant]

Question regarding the OP:

Slaine is resting his head against the tank holding the Princess, and then he turns and walks out. The camera is in a low angle shot as he leaves and as it pans down there is a white and blue device in the bottom of the screen.

Have we seen it before? Is it significant? It seems as if I should recognize it.

[SPARTAN 119]

OK, With the latest episode of Aldnoah, here's my two cents worth on where Saazbaum stands, morally speaking:

He is not entirely good or evil, however, I'd place him as more of an anti-villain than an anti-hero.

As many people he pointed out, Saazbaum is guilty of war crimes on the level of the Nazis, specifically ordering the deaths of millions of unarmed civilians and the genocide of another race.

In this way, he can be considered like Hitler in that he is motivated in part by (perceived) revenge- Hitler believed the Jews betrayed Germany in World War I (obviously they didn't), and Saazbaum intends to kill millions of, and possibly even wipe out the Terrans as revenge for his dead fiancee (it is not clear if the UFE had any role in destroying the hyper gate and triggering Heaven's Fall, but it is clear that none of the millions of civilian he killed were in any way guilty)

Now, enough ad Hitleram, regarding the "less evil" side to Saazbaum:

He realizes full well that the feudal system of the Vers Empire was foolish and, based on his comments in Ep. 14, intends to change it to some form of more egalitarian system.

Now, from this point of view, he can be considered more of an anti-villain- Saazbaum is a character willing to commit heinous crimes to achieve a justifiable goal, namely freeing Mars from feudalism.

That said, when the Russian tried to same thing, it quickly turned into a brutal dictatorship far worse than the absolute monarchy they had ended....

[XFire]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

OK, With the latest episode of Aldnoah, here's my two cents worth on where Saazbaum stands, morally speaking:

He is not entirely good or evil, however, I'd place him as more of an anti-villain than an anti-hero.

As many people he pointed out, Saazbaum is guilty of war crimes on the level of the Nazis, specifically ordering the deaths of millions of unarmed civilians and the genocide of another race.

In this way, he can be considered like Hitler in that he is motivated in part by (perceived) revenge- Hitler believed the Jews betrayed Germany in World War I (obviously they didn't), and Saazbaum intends to kill millions of, and possibly even wipe out the Terrans as revenge for his dead fiancee (it is not clear if the UFE had any role in destroying the hyper gate and triggering Heaven's Fall, but it is clear that none of the millions of civilian he killed were in any way guilty)

Now, enough ad Hitleram, regarding the "less evil" side to Saazbaum:

He realizes full well that the feudal system of the Vers Empire was foolish and, based on his comments in Ep. 14, intends to change it to some form of more egalitarian system.

Now, from this point of view, he can be considered more of an anti-villain- Saazbaum is a character willing to commit heinous crimes to achieve a justifiable goal, namely freeing Mars from feudalism.

That said, when the Russian tried to same thing, it quickly turned into a brutal dictatorship far worse than the absolute monarchy they had ended....

..............Yeah, I could accept that.

[Syaokura]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Question regarding the OP:

Slaine is resting his head against the tank holding the Princess, and then he turns and walks out. The camera is in a low angle shot as he leaves and as it pans down there is a white and blue device in the bottom of the screen.

Have we seen it before? Is it significant? It seems as if I should recognize it.

Pretty sure that's Slaine's good luck charm that he gave to Asseylum... which turned out to be not so lucky.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

OK, With the latest episode of Aldnoah, here's my two cents worth on where Saazbaum stands, morally speaking:

He is not entirely good or evil, however, I'd place him as more of an anti-villain than an anti-hero.

As many people he pointed out, Saazbaum is guilty of war crimes on the level of the Nazis, specifically ordering the deaths of millions of unarmed civilians and the genocide of another race.

In this way, he can be considered like Hitler in that he is motivated in part by (perceived) revenge- Hitler believed the Jews betrayed Germany in World War I (obviously they didn't), and Saazbaum intends to kill millions of, and possibly even wipe out the Terrans as revenge for his dead fiancee (it is not clear if the UFE had any role in destroying the hyper gate and triggering Heaven's Fall, but it is clear that none of the millions of civilian he killed were in any way guilty)

Now, enough ad Hitleram, regarding the "less evil" side to Saazbaum:

He realizes full well that the feudal system of the Vers Empire was foolish and, based on his comments in Ep. 14, intends to change it to some form of more egalitarian system.

Now, from this point of view, he can be considered more of an anti-villain- Saazbaum is a character willing to commit heinous crimes to achieve a justifiable goal, namely freeing Mars from feudalism.

That said, when the Russian tried to same thing, it quickly turned into a brutal dictatorship far worse than the absolute monarchy they had ended....

Best way to sum up Sazzbaum and his actions and goals so far.