[Manga] Naruto Chapter 549 Discussion

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by bhl88

But Itachi gave the crow to Naruto. So he must have some level of foresight that this would happen (and Sasuke would probably ask where he got the crow).

I know that. And I was more or less joking (just as much as you were); in that I mean while he can and likely did predict Sasuke's potential fall, I doubt he could predict it to the point of scripting a conversation exactly predicting how Madara corrupted Sasuke.

Then again, it wouldn't take too much work to figure out how Madara would do that.

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The time manipulation is the single feature that defines Tsukuyomi. Its instantaneousness is the reason it cannot be dispelled even if you have a partner, if you remove that then it's just a Genjutsu like any others. It would be like saying Sasuke could use Amaterasu way back during part 1, just a weaker Amaterasu that wasn't inextinguishable and didn't burn for 7 days and nights.


The ability to manipulate the shape of chakra is the single most powerful Ninjutsu ability in the story. That's the difference between a gust of wind and the FRS or the difference between a pound of clay and an atomic explosion. Being able to apply Shape Manipulation to those flame means the potential to an entire new branch of Elemental Ninjutsu, it's similar to a Kekkei Genkai by itself.


We have seen several actually, Itachi used one on Sasuke the day of the massacre to knock him out after he used Tsukuyomi, he used one during their final battle just before he used Tsukuyomi and Sasuke has used a few small-time Genjutsu with his MS to cast low grade illusion and force a Cloud nin to tell the truth.
The Genjutsu Sasuke used on Bee was a Binding Genjutsu, an illusion meant to last for a given period of time to paralyze its target. Tsukuyomi on the other hand is an illusion with to time period. It works virtually instantaneously and create a mental breakdown. That's the reason Naruto warned Bee about it this chapter even after the Hachibi got him out of a regular Genjutsu.

Note that at the end of the day there is no definitive answer about this yet. Until the 4th Databook comes out that is.

... Seems like from your recent arguments that you were one of the original parties involved with the idea that Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi.

I was not incorrect in my assumption after all.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by epyon96

... Seems like from your recent arguments that you were one of the original parties involved with the idea that Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi.

I was not incorrect in my assumption after all.

Hmm?

Originally Posted by epyon96

Seems that there is a consensus now that Tsukuyomi is confirmed to not require manipulation of time as senior forum member Hunter had suggested.

Ah I see, I thought you meant that I originally suggested that it didn't require manipulation of time.

[Kallen4life]

to me it makes some sort of sense that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is better (time control), whereas Sasuke's Amaterasu is better (shape control), because Sasuke's proficiency is ninjutsu (Kirin lol ^^ .. his taijutsu and sword-skills are ok, but obviously far from the best) and Itachi's is genjutsu


Naruto is a ninjutsu man too, of course, maybe more so then anyone else

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Hmm?

Ah I see, I thought you meant that I originally suggested that it didn't require manipulation of time.

I don't disagree with your assessment of it maybe requiring time.

But it would suggest the topic is disprovable for either side.

On one hand, there's the camp that believes that if Tsukiyomi does not manipulate time, it would not constitute a different enough Genjutsu.

On the other hand, there's the camp that suggests that the Killer Bee and Danzou's comments suggest that it meets the bare minimum of calling it Tsukiyomi but it is inferior to Itachi's.

I think the way the author made it, it is fairly clear that he wants us to believe it is the later camp. Short of Itachi making a statement to Sasuke correcting his usage, this can easily continue into an endless banter. If it is not provable in either way, it becomes almost impossible to argue with any rational logic.

[Frenchie]

I don't understand this. Why would Sasuke be holding his eye 'a la Itachi' after using MS Genjutsu if it -wasn't- Tsukuyomi? I'm obviously of the 'Sasuke sucks at Tsukuyomi' doctrine, but there is very little evidence for the 'Sasuke never used Tsukuyomi' theory.

[Kallen4life]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

I don't understand this. Why would Sasuke be holding his eye 'a la Itachi' after using MS Genjutsu if it -wasn't- Tsukuyomi? I'm obviously of the 'Sasuke sucks at Tsukuyomi' doctrine, but there is very little evidence for the 'Sasuke never used Tsukuyomi' theory.

these are pretty much my thoughts


and if it wasn't Tsukuyomi - what was it ? a different-but-similar MS genjutsu ? why not just use Tsukuyomi then ?
+ seems a bit too extreme for a regular-sharingan-genjutsu-possibly-enhanced-by-MS (if such a boost is even possible)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by epyon96

I don't disagree with your assessment of it maybe requiring time.

But it would suggest the topic is disprovable for either side.

Disprovable no, uncertain yes.

On one hand, there's the camp that believes that if Tsukiyomi does not manipulate time, it would not constitute a different enough Genjutsu.

On the other hand, there's the camp that suggests that the Killer Bee and Danzou's comments suggest that it meets the bare minimum of calling it Tsukiyomi but it is inferior to Itachi's.

Those are the same camp.
The real difference is that one side believes Tsukuyomi is synonym with MS Genjutsu regardless of what it actually does whereas the other side claims that Tsukuyomi is a specific jutsu with specific traits, none shared by Sasuke's numerous Genjutsu.

It's easy enough to see, try to define Tsukuyomi without instanteousness and absolute control over space and time and the only thing you can say is : it's a Genjutsu.

If it is not provable in either way, it becomes almost impossible to argue with any rational logic.

It's not possible to tell with absolute certainty no, but it's easy enough to debate with rational arguments on the subject.

Originally Posted by Frenchie

I don't understand this. Why would Sasuke be holding his eye 'a la Itachi' after using MS Genjutsu if it -wasn't- Tsukuyomi? I'm obviously of the 'Sasuke sucks at Tsukuyomi' doctrine, but there is very little evidence for the 'Sasuke never used Tsukuyomi' theory.

All MS jutsu damage the eyes of the users is why, incidentally Sasuke has been holding his eye even after using a regular Sharingan Genjutsu against C.
And I'd add that you have offered no evidence whatsoever at this point.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

and if it wasn't Tsukuyomi - what was it ? a different-but-similar MS genjutsu ? why not just use Tsukuyomi then ?
+ seems a bit too extreme for a regular-sharingan-genjutsu-possibly-enhanced-by-MS (if such a boost is even possible)

There is nothing similar about them and he wouldn't use Tsukuyomi because he can't, he's not good enough.

[Kallen4life]

the similar about them is the obvious inverted Tsukuyomi color scheme in the Bee fight + the fact that he specifically activated MS in his right eye for this attack (afaik Tsukuyomi comes out of the right eye)

instanteousness and absolute control over space and time

for Sasuke - just space, not time .. he makes Bee think he is impaled by multiple spikes - how's that different from Itachi sticking those katanas in Kakashi ? (although Itachi obviously has more time because of his mastery)


his genjutsus on C & Danzou are probably not Tsukuyomi (cannot say about Danzou)



Tsukuyomi is "just" a genjutsu - it's just frikkin powerful, even Kakashi's sharingan stood no chance, whereas he might've broken a regular sharingan genjutsu, maybe even from Itachi



if Sasuke indeed cannot do Tsukuyomi and his second MS ability is the shape manipulation of Amaterasu then Kishi really should've made it much clearer

for now though, I'm more or less certain he can squeeze out a half-assed Tsukuyomi if it's really needed

[Hunter]

Them? The inverted color scheme isn't part of all of Sasuke's Genjutsu, there was none of that in the two MS Genjutsu he used against Danzou. Controlling what the user sees is what nearly all Genjutsu do. Do you think Tayuya used Tsukuyomi on Shikamaru?
And I'm at loss, you claimed there was no such thing as a MS Genjutsu outside of Tsukuyomi but you can't say if the MS Genjutsu used against Danzou actually were Tsukuyomi. That's contradictory.
If in case you accept that not all MS Genjutsu are Tsukuyomi then why believe Sasuke can use this particular jutsu when he has never done -and in fact was stated to be unable to- the one thing that set apart this Genjutsu from the rest.

edit : Sasuke doesn't use MS Genjutsu with the same eye than Itachi. Itachi used his left.

edit2 :

if Sasuke indeed cannot do Tsukuyomi and his second MS ability is the shape manipulation of Amaterasu then Kishi really should've made it much clearer

Clearer than the fact that we were flatly told that Sasuke had the ability to use Amaterasu in his left eye and the ability to shape the flame with his right? That just after he discovered this ability Sasuke thought that he had to test something which was confirmed later to be Susanoo by Juugo?
Whereas not once did Sasuke mention Tsukuyomi contrary to all MS abilities he has used?

[Kallen4life]

there was none of that in the two MS Genjutsu he used against Danzou.

those were probably not Tsukuyomis

Controlling what the user sees is what nearly all Genjutsu do.

yeah, and that's what Tsukuyomi does as well, except in a much more forceful manner (and is MUCH harder to break .. making a seal and saying Kai is completely useless even for a premier genjutsu specialist like Kurenai) .. + Itachi's version raeps time too ^^

Do you think Tayuya used Tsukuyomi on Shikamaru?

of course not

And I'm at loss, you claimed there was no such thing as a MS Genjutsu outside of Tsukuyomi but you can't say if the MS Genjutsu used against Danzou actually were Tsukuyomi. That's contradictory.

those were possibly regular sharingan genjutsus (i.e. something he could cast w/o MS at all), they were just cast while Sasuke had MS on anyway in his fight with Danzou .. I don't see how activating MS means you can use only MS techniques - all the regular sharingan stuff is still there .. it's just a possibility though





my main point is that w/e Sasuke used vs Bee looked like a damn Tsukuyomi to me ^^ (inferior to Itachi's, but nonetheless)



P.S. my understanding is that there is no generic 'MS jutsu/genjutsu' .. there's Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, Kamui (and possibly Sasuke's shape manipulation of Amaterasu) .. that's it .. they're quite powerful, that's more then enough .. EMS gives something else maybe

Clearer than the fact that we were flatly told that Sasuke had the ability to use Amaterasu in his left eye and the ability to shape the flame with his right? That just after he discovered this ability Sasuke thought that he had to test something which was confirmed later to be Susanoo by Juugo?

tbh it certainly seemed to me that the manipulation of Amterasu is just an extra for the Amaterasu ability itself, a sign of Sasuke's prowess with it (ninjutsu) .. it's not quite as clear as you're making it out to be that it's his second distinct MS ability

and it also seems reasonable that MS eyes give the same set of abilities, but the degree of mastery varies with the user

Whereas no once did Sasuke mention Tsukuyomi contrary to all MS abilities he has used?

must he absolutely call out & name it when he uses it ?

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

tbh it certainly seemed to me that the manipulation of Amterasu is just an extra for the Amaterasu ability itself, a sign of Sasuke's prowess with it (ninjutsu) .. it's not quite as clear as you're making it out to be that it's his second distinct MS ability

and it also seems reasonable that MS eyes give the same set of abilities, but the degree of mastery varies with the user


must he absolutely call out & name it when he uses it ?

The manipulation of Amaterasu flames is just an extra for Amaterasu itself, but it's an extra controlled by his other eye all the same.

And I checked back to the chapter in question (413 in case you didn't already know, though you probably did), but the Genjutsu Sasuke used there looked as though it could just as easily have been any other Genjutsu. So while I won't outright say he doesn't have access to Tsukuyomi, I don't think we've seen him use it.

[Hunter]

Kallen4life would you mind to not cut apart my post in tiny bits of sentences that lose all meaning?
Like my point about Tayuya, that was a rhetorical question : you attempted to link what Sasuke did to Bee to what Itachi did to Kakashi with something nearly all Genjutsu can do, if your argument was sound then Tayuya's Genjutsu would also be Tsukuyomi.
The one and sole traits Tsukuyomi has compared to all others Genjutsu is its instanteousness which make dispelling all but impossible, that's what Itachi explained to Kakashi, what Kakashi told Chiyo and what was explained in the Databook.

Your point that all the Genjutsu used with his MS activated weren't Tsukuyomi except for the one against Bee doesn't help your argument either (in fact it's even contradictory to what you said previously and I quote : "why not use Tsukuyomi then"). Moreover it doesn't answer my question in the slightest, if you believe Sasuke can use regular Genjutsu with his MS activated then why believe he used Tsukuyomi when he couldn't do the one thing this jutsu does?

As far as Sasuke's ability to shape Amaterasu, it was also given a Japanese god name and it was after discovering this particular ability that Sasuke thought he could try Susanoo. When you add to this that C explained what Sasuke's 2nd eye could do right before Sasuke specifically said Susanoo could only be used by someone with the ability to use the MS with both eyes... Well I think it was clear enough.


edit : anyway, I think we're merely repeating ourselves now, unless a new argument comes up I think I'm done with the subject for now.

[Kallen4life]

Kallen4life would you mind to not cut apart my post in tiny bits of sentences that lose all meaning?

if I'm answering a particular point - I'm quoting that particular point, makes no sense to quote the whole thing .. and I'd think they make sense to you, since you wrote them

And I checked back to the chapter in question (413 in case you didn't already know, though you probably did), but the Genjutsu Sasuke used there looked as though it could just as easily have been any other Genjutsu.

you mean the one which he uses from his right MS eye (he specifically activates that eye right before using it) and which has the inverted colors ? ok then

Like my point about Tayuya, that was a rhetorical question : you attempted to link what Sasuke did to Bee to what Itachi did to Kakashi with something nearly all Genjutsu can do, if your argument was sound then Tayuya's Genjutsu would also be Tsukuyomi.

Tayuya didn't stick Shika with blades in inverted color panels .. nor was her genjutsu cast with MS

Your point that all the Genjutsu used with his MS activated weren't Tsukuyomi except for the one against Bee doesn't help your argument either (in fact it's even contradictory to what you said previously and I quote : "why not use Tsukuyomi then").

I don't know, ask Kishi or Sasuke .. maybe it's becasuse it's so damn eye-damaging and chakra-draining, being an MS technique and all .. Itachi used plenty of genjutsu other then Tsukuyomi

Moreover it doesn't answer my question in the slightest, if you believe Sasuke can use regular Genjutsu with his MS activated then why believe he used Tsukuyomi when he couldn't do the one thing this jutsu does?

because it did do what Tsukuyomi does, with the exception of time manipulation .. that + inverted colors

As far as Sasuke's ability to shape Amaterasu, it was also given a Japanese god name and it was after discovering this particular ability that Sasuke thought he could try Susanoo. When you add to this that C explained what Sasuke's 2nd eye could do right before Sasuke specifically said Susanoo could only be used by someone with the ability to use the MS with both eyes... Well I think it was clear enough.

good theory, but not enough proof for me .. we'll see after more Sasuke fights

The one and sole traits Tsukuyomi has compared to all others Genjutsu is its instanteousness which make dispelling all but impossible

we can assume that Hachibi would still be able to snap Bee out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi (it's still a genjutsu and another person can still snap the afficted out of it), it's just Bee would have suffered 72 hours (maybe less, but still a lot of hours) of mind-rape instead of the few seconds of Sasuke's (meaning he'd possibly lose consciousness from the strain, whereas Sasuke's few seconds are nothing) .. this is pure speculation though

anyway, I think we're merely repeating ourselves now, unless a new argument comes up I think I'm done with the subject for now.

ok

[HiddenMessage]

I like to raise a point here. Sasuke did say "only those who have activated the first 2 powers(Tsukiyomi+Amaterasu) before they can use Susano'o." or along those lines when he mocked Gaara's absolute defense after that Raikage fight. So naturally, he would be able to use Tsukiyomi, yes?

[Akashin]

That would be the implication, yes, though it seems possible (and perhaps likely) that his manipulation of the Amaterasu flames serves as the second power in Tsukuyomi's place.

[Kallen4life]

either theory works atm, as far as I'm concerned, but I'm sticking to the Tsukuyomi so far .. if I'm proven wrong - oh well, lesson learned ^^

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Hunter

All MS jutsu damage the eyes of the users is why, incidentally Sasuke has been holding his eye even after using a regular Sharingan Genjutsu against C.
And I'd add that you have offered no evidence whatsoever at this point.

Hunter, you haven't offered any 'evidence' either, by your own acknowledgment, we don't know until the 4th databook comes out.

But seriously, this is a shounen manga. The idea that Kishi would make such a fine distinction is silly. When you see Sasuke use genjutsu and you see the MS pattern in the eye, the audience is going to correlate that with Tsukuyomi, not with random 'generic' MS Genjutsu that was never mentioned once in the entire story, part I or part II. They rarely try to 'fill in the blanks' as you do.

[Hunter]

I have acknowledged that there is no definitive proof either ways (on the sole basis that it's true the Genjutsu used on Bee was color-inverted but I have provided several evidences to back up my opinion.
You have on the other hand provided nothing except saying those who disagree with you make ridiculous and silly claim.
Excuse me if I'm not impressed.

[james0246]

Truthfully, I dislike Sasuke not getting Tsukuyomi, even if a weakened version, due to the simple fact that Enton is nothing compared to Tsukuyomi, and if Enton is really Sasuke's second MS technique, then he definitely got a raw deal. Consequently, I would vastly prefer for Sasuke to simply have a more powerful Amaterasu (that can be shaped and manipulated), and a significantly weaker Tsukuyomi (additionally, this would keep the MS fairly streamlined with little deviation between various MS besides proficiency, skill and natural ability).