[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories

[Siva]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Heh, she did break her sense of asthetics to fight Dauf though, so anything is possible.

If you re-watch the episode again you will see that she didnt use it at the beginning even if she is going to die and Clare helps her. And she did break her sense of asthetics to fight Dauf just because she wants to buy time for Clare so at that time she was in a role Hero of Justice use everything she can to protect her friends.
Tell me that wasn't "Cool"

Originally Posted by Sassarai

"This goes against my policies regarding beauty so i dont really want to do this. Sorry but youll have to deal with this ugly face of mine for a bit. "The rate of my power rises from releasing my yoki is the highest among all 47 warriors.- to duff


Tell me that wasn't "Cool"

YES IT WAS REALLY "COOL"

OMG Galatea's fan being gang, Why only 2 of us here, Sassarai?

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Once again, how can Galatea manipulate what Miata cannot even use? The point of Yoki suppression pills is to prevent, and thus hide, Yoki from being released, so naturally this prevents external sources from manipulating that same energy.

Thanks to her new ability to pull out youki even from someone who suppresses it . Nah, You're right, until Miata released her youki she wouldn't be able to manipulate her youki. Nonetheless I still think she could beat her :P.

Who says she will even be able to get the fight out of the city, I doubt she can outrun Miata, and turning her back is probably a bad idea. Laying traps also seems just as much against Galatea's character as taking a hostage.

Yeah, neither traps nor hostages are her style, I mentioned it just to state that there is high chance of Galatea winning if these factors were considered.

My point is why would she needlessly put herself in danger? Not to mention that the Organization has their own Eye, so Galatea would be putting herself at needless risk.

If she knew her opponents level there would be no risk at all. As for another eye, unless this eye was better than Galatea she wouldn't have reason to be scared.

Because Irene was a better warrior with better abilities then Ophelia, not to mention Ophelia lived in a generation with a freakishly powerful top 5. Irene was #2 at one point, so how can she not be a contender for the #1 spot?

Irene was definitely a better warrior but Ophelia had potential to surpass her. Her craziness didn't help her in it though.

That does not mean that Rosemary became weaker, that just means Teresa was more suited to the position of #1.

I wasn't precise, by degrading I meant her rank being diminished from 1 to 2.

By that logic, Jean is the most experienced Claymore in the entire story.
Just because someone has a high mental score does not mean that they are experienced, it just means that they have a solid mind-set and exceptional mental strength, that is more based on their core personalities then anything.

By that logic Jean would be as experienced as Irene was, so not necessarily the "most". We don't know how long Jean was a claymore but probably quite long. Nevertheless this argument can't be valid because we don't know when did they measure strength of claymores but I couldn't think of a better one :P. I just believe that one generation isn't so long to allow Irene miss Rosemary, raise from nowhere and be more powerful than her. I don't think that someone weaker than Irene level could be number one. The Org probably knows how to make a claymore who would be worth #1 spot so Rosemary as #1 wasn't coincidence.

If Irene was not an active warrior at the time, she would not have replaced Rosemary, as she was still a trainee and had not received a rank yet.

Well Priscilla was a warrior who rapidly became #2 so why not Irene if she was a contender for #1 spot ?

[BaalChaamon]

Originally Posted by Gooral

The Org probably knows how to make a claymore who would be worth #1 spot so Rosemary as #1 wasn't coincidence.

An interesting point you raise there Gooral. I think after 78(?) generations of experimenting with human specimen the Org. is very well capable of creating Claymores with specific potential pool and of a specific qualitative class. That doesn't mean that they have stopped experimenting as the creation of a succesfull soul-link with better-suited specimen aka Alicia and Beth after the failed soul-link between Luciela and Raphaela indicates.

And it seems they are also able to assess that potential at an very early stage, shown by the fast-tracked career of Priscilla who was quickly promoted to be #2.

With the presence of three overwhelmingly powerful AO the Org has another incentive to create powerful Claymores but the outcome depends on human specimen and possibly on the Yoma tissue used on them. The Org. possibly has a stock-pile of high-quality Yoma-tissue that is used specifically in the creation of single-digit Claymores but it is the combination of human and yoma-tissue that ultimately decides if a Claymore with potential to become a single-digit warrior emerges. The individuals Claymore's skill also indicates the strong influence the human specimen has on the outcome of the merger.

I can also see the Org putting extra effort in the creation of an Eye for each generation simply as it is a tactical advantage that is vital for its existence.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Gooral

Thanks to her new ability to pull out youki even from someone who suppresses it . Nah, You're right, until Miata released her youki she wouldn't be able to manipulate her youki. Nonetheless I still think she could beat her :P.

Of course you do, thats why we are arguing

Yeah, neither traps nor hostages are her style, I mentioned it just to state that there is high chance of Galatea winning if these factors were considered.

Of course, but I would replace high with higher

If she knew her opponents level there would be no risk at all. As for another eye, unless this eye was better than Galatea she wouldn't have reason to be scared.

The risk lies in the new eye, as we do not know if her range if equal to or higher then Galatea's, and niether does Galatea. Not to mention fighting Yoma for the sake of raising her strength does not make sense if she only picks on the weak ones.

Irene was definitely a better warrior but Ophelia had potential to surpass her. Her craziness didn't help her in it though.

I think the Quick-Sword sealed Irene's superiority as a warrior, Ophelia had higher stats, but Irene had better abilities. Being crazy always helps

I wasn't precise, by degrading I meant her rank being diminished from 1 to 2.[QUO

If that is what you mean, I have no idea why we even mentioned it

By that logic Jean would be as experienced as Irene was, so not necessarily the "most". We don't know how long Jean was a claymore but probably quite long. Nevertheless this argument can't be valid because we don't know when did they measure strength of claymores but I couldn't think of a better one :P.

I just believe that one generation isn't so long to allow Irene miss Rosemary, raise from nowhere and be more powerful than her.

7 Years is a long time, and that is the rough estimate of the generation's time gap judging by Teresa>Clare>Clarice's generations

I don't think that someone weaker than Irene level could be number one. The Org probably knows how to make a claymore who would be worth #1 spot so Rosemary as #1 wasn't coincidence.

I don't think someone that is weaker then Irene could be #1 either, but Irene herself was quite an exceptional warrior.

Well Priscilla was a warrior who rapidly became #2 so why not Irene if she was a contender for #1 spot ?[/QUOTE]

Because it is quite possible that Irene was not even active yet, as I have been saying.

-----------------------------------

You don't get it do you. Miata will lead Galatea to an active volcano somewhere near the town duh!

You have no idea of how sad that last sentances made me

--------------------------------------

If you re-watch the episode again you will see that she didnt use it at the beginning even if she is going to die and Clare helps her. And she did break her sense of asthetics to fight Dauf just because she wants to buy time for Clare so at that time she was in a role Hero of Justice use everything she can to protect her friends.
Tell me that wasn't "Cool"

She did not use it at the start of the fight because she was caught off guard by Dauf's ability to suddenly hit her, so she really did not have much time to start using her Yoki.

Getting killed before going all out is never "Cool."

---------------------------------

An interesting point you raise there Gooral. I think after 78(?) generations of experimenting with human specimen the Org. is very well capable of creating Claymores with specific potential pool and of a specific qualitative class. That doesn't mean that they have stopped experimenting as the creation of a succesfull soul-link with better-suited specimen aka Alicia and Beth after the failed soul-link between Luciela and Raphaela indicates.

My theory has been that they have a limited, or rarely restocked supply of Yoma flesh, and can only supply a few Claymores with it each generation, so only a few Claymores can rise above the rest.

And it seems they are also able to assess that potential at an very early stage, shown by the fast-tracked career of Priscilla who was quickly promoted to be #2.

I think that has to do more with Priscilla's amazing progress then anything, because she was clearly stronger then Irene already.

With the presence of three overwhelmingly powerful AO the Org has another incentive to create powerful Claymores but the outcome depends on human specimen and possibly on the Yoma tissue used on them. The Org. possibly has a stock-pile of high-quality Yoma-tissue that is used specifically in the creation of single-digit Claymores but it is the combination of human and yoma-tissue that ultimately decides if a Claymore with potential to become a single-digit warrior emerges. The individuals Claymore's skill also indicates the strong influence the human specimen has on the outcome of the merger.

Something like that

I do think the human's compatibility with the Yoma tissue has alot to do with it as well. Otherwise we would have a Teresa and Priscilla every generation.

I can also see the Org putting extra effort in the creation of an Eye for each generation simply as it is a tactical advantage that is vital for its existence.

It is probably a rare Yoma tissue sample, like the single-digit tissue, and is only used on a few potentials.

[BaalChaamon]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

My theory has been that they have a limited, or rarely restocked supply of Yoma flesh, and can only supply a few Claymores with it each generation, so only a few Claymores can rise above the rest.

I don't think the Yoma flesh would be the main issue, more like the human specimen have to go through a rigorous training prior to becoming Claymores and many simply fail before being allowed to merge with Yoma tissue and some fail even after as we have seen in ES4. A multi-levelled selection process makes sense considering the importance of combat-able warriors. The current state of the Org however is a different one as they are low on capable warriors and the lower ranks probably consist of fillers mostly.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I do think the human's compatibility with the Yoma tissue has alot to do with it as well. Otherwise we would have a Teresa and Priscilla every generation.

My words

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It is probably a rare Yoma tissue sample, like the single-digit tissue, and is only used on a few potentials.

After a string of selection criterias and tests have been passed, yes.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

I don't think the Yoma flesh would be the main issue, more like the human specimen have to go through a rigorous training prior to becoming Claymores and many simply fail before being allowed to merge with Yoma tissue and some fail even after as we have seen in ES4. A multi-levelled selection process makes sense considering the importance of combat-able warriors. The current state of the Org however is a different one as they are low on capable warriors and the lower ranks probably consist of fillers mostly.

I think testing for compatibility is probably an important issue when creating single-digit level Claymores, as poor compatibility can = Clarice.

My words

Heh, I have stated almost the exact same thing in some of my earlier posts, in the Japanese Manga thread I believe.

After a string of selection criterias and tests have been passed, yes.

Did I stutter? I said a few.

[edf91]

Original "thread" started in the manga discussion, but since it has morphed to Claire vs Miria discussion, we thought it should belong in this thread:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Her Mirage was her finishing move, she only resorted to it for the final blow, or when the situation demanded it. Against Rigaldo (a speed based AB) her technique was significantly less powerful.

Just imagine you are playing old school fighting game like Street Fighter 2 - remember special moves will hurt even when blocked? I am talking about something along those lines - yes, Miria can run circles around you, but if you play turtle (or something along those lines), Miria cannot really beat you unless she can find a weakness to exploit. Chessy, yes, but that's how I view these "killer moves."

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

That is the primary advantage of Miria's original phantom ability, she can hit you before you even realize she was not where she was a second ago.

More like she let you think you hit her, then counter. Just like those Tekken or whatever fighting game - you have a way bigger chance to attack when the other guy finish attacking and misses.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

The problem is that if Clare resorted to doing that, she would wear out quickly, as it takes alot of stamina out of Clare, as it is a full Yoki-release into one arm, and a constant one unlike Miria's phantoms.

Unless Miria resort to using her old style phantom and go back and forth, Claire can always just not use quick sword if she knows Miria is too far to use the mirage. But yes, it could work, but it really depends on how both sides play it out, as it drain stamina - quicksword for Claire and mirage for Miria.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Which is why they are quite evenly matched right now, both of them would wear out trying to get around each other's techniques. :P

It's a game of turtles, yes, so it is more about who can keep their concentration longer.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Heh, she does have a finishing move, it is just over-looked as something she normally uses, but really she only used it to finish opponents, or survive overwhelmingly strong ones.

Best example would be Miria fighting Daph - you think that "special move" of Miria would do anything to Daph? I seriously doubt it. Claire can probably do some damage with windcutter now.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

If we continue this, please post your response in the Stats thread.

Come on, I like it there - it has so much traffic

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by edf91

Original "thread" started in the manga discussion, but since it has morphed to Claire vs Miria discussion, we thought it should belong in this thread:

Just imagine you are playing old school fighting game like Street Fighter 2 - remember special moves will hurt even when blocked? I am talking about something along those lines - yes, Miria can run circles around you, but if you play turtle (or something along those lines), Miria cannot really beat you unless she can find a weakness to exploit. Chessy, yes, but that's how I view these "killer moves."

Miria's move would still fit into this catagory, if you have played Mortal Kombat, imagine it as if it is Kabal's special dash ability.

More like she let you think you hit her, then counter. Just like those Tekken or whatever fighting game - you have a way bigger chance to attack when the other guy finish attacking and misses.

Heh you don't have to tell me that, I know it quite well from my own training.

Unless Miria resort to using her old style phantom and go back and forth, Claire can always just not use quick sword if she knows Miria is too far to use the mirage. But yes, it could work, but it really depends on how both sides play it out, as it drain stamina - quicksword for Claire and mirage for Miria.

Clare cannot defeat Miria without resorting to the Flash-Sword or the Wind Cutter, the Flash-Sword drains more stamina, but the Wind Cutter does to, while Miria can play hit and run instead of trying to press Clare like she did in their duel.

It's a game of turtles, yes, so it is more about who can keep their concentration longer.

My vote would go to Miria in that case

Best example would be Miria fighting Daph - you think that "special move" of Miria would do anything to Daph? I seriously doubt it. Claire can probably do some damage with windcutter now.

Actually, the Quick-Sword could not hurt Dauf either, but I imagine Miria could at least stab his eyes out, or go for the softer parts, with her speed.

Come on, I like it there - it has so much traffic

It is just a matter of us already having a thread for these types of discussions, and not wanting the moderators to come down upon us for spamming up the Manga thread

[BaalChaamon]

Hmm, it is quite possible that it is just her legs, but her attacks are pretty quick too.
Clare's legs were completely awakened, while Miria never went over her limit using her technique, so it is hard to say how fast she would go if she attempted what Clare did.

Her attacks draw from the momentum she creates with her legs.She could possibly go faster than Claire's awakened legs if she tried the same as speed is her only superior asset in battle (leaving out leadership). But as we have seen in the case of Ophelia and Hilda, awakening may lead to some odd outcomes and we do not how it affects certain stats. Not to mention that controlled awakening might be even totally different story all together.

Notice she was losing to Miria until she started using Irene's arm to perform the Wind Cutter
So she is tapping into Irene's strength to equal Miria.

I have already stated that Claire is an oddball and a freak experiment. Initially being/appearing weaker than her companions come with her character stereotype.True she was disadvantaged in their little encounter till she used her Ex-Irenes' arm. I think its fair to say that after 7+ years that arm has become hers with every right.Further, her swordsmanship with the Flash-sword is yet to be revealed at this stage and it is likely that its improved significantly.

Deneve:"The one who has had the hardest time in these 7 years must be her..." (in reference to Claire)

--> Shonen manga+weakest character+hardest training= MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT

which could be a greater improvement from a lower baselevel in Claire's case in comparison to a already better established Miria who had a lower growth rate in comparison, but thinking back to the War in the North, she was already fighting on par with Flora so she couldn't have been too far behind Miria in her skill enhancements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Flash-sword and Windcutter:
Speak, #15 Deneve: "Enhancing the natural sword movements without yoma energy release...a style that mainly requires concentration and full use of that right arm's true potential..."

Considering that Claire already had the perfect arm for the Flash-sword she started off with a higher level of potential and possible proficiency in regards to the Windcutter technique, than for example Flora herself. The Flash-sword requires a much higher level of concentration and swordmanship than the Windcutter, a technique which relies on natural sword movements without Yoki release.
This training of sword movements would surely benefit her use of the Flash-sword and further refine that technique beyond her already established proficiency that she had during the Pieta incident.

This paired with Claire's incredibly steep learning curve leads me to conclude that if she was to resort to the Flash-sword in a battle against Miria's Yoki-Mirage her technique would be more refined, more precise and faster than Miria's mirages. While Miria only uses bursts of Yoki with a followed powering down period, the Flash-sword relies on constant maximum output which could give her the advantage of that powering down time frame (Miria reminds me of a cheetah to some extend).

For some weird reason i keep thinking that one of the reason's Yagi san gave Claire the Windcutter technique (and Helen the Jean's drill attack) because he felt guilty for murdering those lovely ladies too quickly but what the heck ....
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Clare cannot defeat Miria without resorting to the Flash-Sword or the Wind Cutter, the Flash-Sword drains more stamina, but the Wind Cutter does to, while Miria can play hit and run instead of trying to press Clare like she did in their duel.

Similarily Miria cannot take down Claire now without resorting to her mirages. Where does it say that the Windcutter requires stamina?
Deneve stating something as unbelievable as that Miria can use her new mirages ad infinitum, she probably just ment that she can use it till she drops or gets hit without having to worry about the greater stamina drain that a Yoki outburst would cause.Thus, playing hit and run is not something that Miria can do as long as she would like to.

Spoiler for Claymore Breathing technique:

Looks to me like they are pretty much equally exhausted. So, I would say no, Miria does not have the advantage. Claire has more skills to rely on:Flash-sword, Windcutter, Yoki scan(which makes Miria's Yoki outburst less usefull as Claire could predict the amount of power and the direction she would apply it to) and Teresa-Inside status.

My vote would go to Miria in that case

Nothing unexpected there, but hey I understand its hard to fight the fanboyism. I struggle too

Actually, the Quick-Sword could not hurt Dauf either, but I imagine Miria could at least stab his eyes out, or go for the softer parts, with her speed.

Spoiler for Size and Manga:

If that doesn't sound like it hurts. Using your theory, Claire could similiarly aim for Dauf's softspots with her Flash-sword and be more efficient than Miria at injuring him.We don't need to kid ourselves that neither of them would be able to take him down (unless Claire uses her freak-talents)

It is just a matter of us already having a thread for these types of discussions, and not wanting the moderators to come down upon us for spamming up the Manga thread

Good thing we miraged the dicussion into this thread

[Fate_Archer]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

Fate_Archer, Yagi's pen killed my beloved. Why wouldn't he kill yours if it pleased his fancy? Muwaha ha ha ha ha!

[fanboy on]

Because... Because... Because... It's because... *face start to blush*

BECAUSE I LOVE HER!!!

[/fanboy]

Honestly, I have an optimistic feeling about Galatea.

I think to many good characters have died.
Sometimes it's necessary to make the story go on and develop, but that's not the case with Galatea.

Among all the reasons Teresa died, it happened so we could have an objective, a main focus and a plot in the story.

The characters of the Northern Campaign died for many reasons.
First of all, it was a hopeless mission and situation. It's a scenario that demands casualties, and in the battlefield, no one is safe.
Second, to show how Easley and the Organization play their strategies in the big-schemes of things. It show us how they used their soldiers as pawns to achieve their goals.
Third, to return the focus to the main characters and set a new group that would keep with the story.

And many other reasons as well, but I can't see how Galatea's death would contribute for the story now.
It would only shock the fans with an unnecessary death of a charismatic character.

Plus, she now has an important role in Riful's plans and Clare asked for her as well.
There has to be something that will going on with her.

Also, a character development on Galatea in an opportune moment would be an unusual and very interesting thing to see.

Of course, I'm thinking with a different perspective now, so it's only one side of the coin.
But I think the story has much more to gain with Galatea alive.

--------------

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I believe Miata is a specific case; as you mentioned, she is still young, just like Chibi-Teresa was.
Teresa herself was not a warrior yet at that point, so it is obvious as a child she probably could not harness her full capabilities yet, but when she reached adult-hood and was a full-fledged warrior, it is a different ball-game.

Besides the chibi-Claymores, I think there is more about it.

Partially awakening is inside the concept of "the closer you are from awakening, stronger you get".
And Claymores do have a lifetime. Their fate is either awake or get killed.
Every time they use their powers, they become closer to awake.
At the same time, throughout the battles, situations and experiences, they mold their skills and develop their strength, speed, mental and many other stats.

So, while active and if they survive, there is a tendency to become sharper over time.

The other exception would be a strong psychological problem or trauma, like what happened to Irene or even Audrey.
Something that would make them stop being disposed (or having reasons) to fight.

I would honestly like to assume that, but we really don't know how big the gap is between grades. After all, what is the Gap between Sophia and Noel vs Irene?

Irene bests Sophia and Noel in all the their stats except by their main stats (Strength for Sophia and Agility for Noel) and sense, which they all have the same (B).
Irene is definitely stronger than Sophia or Noel.

Don't get the fallacy of this question, but i think it's Ok.

Considering Galatea claims to have the greatest factor increase with her Yoki, I think we can give more then a little credit to her Yoki release. After all she could not pierce the hard parts of Dauf's body pre-yoki release.

Yeah, and that's why I thought Galatea should have an A+ on her yoki stat. But I think we already discussed this issue.

I think she will have to go against her aesthetics once again to survive Miata.

Well, yes but...

[fanboy]
Galatea is the most beautiful Claymore when using yoki!!! *face becomes completely red*
[/fanboy]

As I said, I don't doubt she has fought ABs before, but the Organization's policy is 1 single digits and 3 non vs ABs. So she would not have been going around soloing them.

It's a policy that can change when it regards powerful Claymores.
They sent Clare only to support Ophelia against the single digit AB, though Ophelia could have died if it wasn't by the AB's carelessness.

Galatea seems to make her missions and quests all alone.
Probably because the Org trusts in Galatea's abilities and they know that she can handle most of the things that could appear in her way.

I don't doubt weak, but even medium ABs are quite tough, so I don't think it would be effortless there, but within possibility certainly.

Aside from Irene, Galatea was the most hardcore number #3 in the annals.
I can definitely visualize Galatea avoiding their blows and tearing her opponents apart.

[fanboy]
C'mon Galatea!!!
You GO GIRL!!!!!
[/fanboy]

She said "The Swing's trajectory was bent? This guy..." and she does not get to finish this thought due to the other manipulated Claymore. So it seems likely that Flora realized what was going on.

Nah, she probably was going to say that classic shounen phrase: "This guy... who is he???"

Well, it seems likely, but I think I will stick with Clare words.
She ended her sentence at least.

Not surprising at all, but I think other people can give pretty accurate guesses when they experience it.

It's easy to give an accurate guess about an unknown subject.
But it's hard to have some reason about it.

Would they know what to do against such ability, or would they fall in the doubts and start to cry, like Dauf did?

Even if Flora knew, she couldn't do a thing against it.

------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Sassarai

I believe that she will end up like archer in fate/stay night or become strong like ikki in Saint Seiya and remain a loner cuz thats what cool characters do.

I thought something like it as well.

Galatea is individually strong and can take care of things by herself.
She could appear in rare occasions and critical moments to help her comrades.
She has also that trait to always appear on important moments.

Also, her presence in the fab 7 would somehow steal Miria's thunder.

I really hope she isn't going to end up like Archer.
It would be cruelty against me.
Two favorite characters having the same Fate would be sad.

[edf91]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Miria's move would still fit into this catagory, if you have played Mortal Kombat, imagine it as if it is Kabal's special dash ability.

Never like Mortal Kombat - more of the SF2 style. Anyway, since I was using SF2 as a base, in SF2, when you block, you block - unless you are blocking standing up, and the enemy sweep, you don't take damage (unless they throw or use specials), even if they move to other side. I know it shouldn't work, since you really cannot block the back, but in SF2 engine, it doesn't matter if it hit the back - it's still a regular hit. I know we are getting way off topic here, but I see Miria's mirage move as something that let you score a hit, not something that would guarantee it does damage.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Heh you don't have to tell me that, I know it quite well from my own training.

See my response above - that's how I view her move. It's more "defensive" in nature.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Clare cannot defeat Miria without resorting to the Flash-Sword or the Wind Cutter, the Flash-Sword drains more stamina, but the Wind Cutter does to, while Miria can play hit and run instead of trying to press Clare like she did in their duel.

Hit and run does drain stamina too - in the manga, both were breathing heavily after their little "spar," so the edge doesn't just easily go to Miria.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

My vote would go to Miria in that case

Unless Claire decide to screw it and go awaken

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Actually, the Quick-Sword could not hurt Dauf either, but I imagine Miria could at least stab his eyes out, or go for the softer parts, with her speed.

There isn't that many soft spot other than eyes, and even Galatea, who has pretty good base stat, need to use youki to cut open Daph's mouth, so Miria fighting Daph is already at disadvantage (I don't see Galatea isn't stronger than Miria normally).

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It is just a matter of us already having a thread for these types of discussions, and not wanting the moderators to come down upon us for spamming up the Manga thread

I am sure they would give "rookies" like me a chance before banning me

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

which could be a greater improvement from a lower baselevel in Claire's case in comparison to a already better established Miria who had a lower growth rate in comparison, but thinking back to the War in the North, she was already fighting on par with Flora so she couldn't have been too far behind Miria in her skill enhancements.

And remember the old school RPG - the party member/class with low starting stat usually balloon into powerful member/class later on

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

Speak, #15 Deneve: "Enhancing the natural sword movements without yoma energy release...a style that mainly requires concentration and full use of that right arm's true potential..."

Which makes it unfair really to others, since Ilena's right arm is used to high speed movement, therefore the muscles, etc., should be well tuned to quick movements.

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

Considering that Claire already had the perfect arm for the Flash-sword she started off with a higher level of potential and possible proficiency in regards to the Windcutter technique, than for example Flora herself. The Flash-sword requires a much higher level of concentration and swordmanship than the Windcutter, a technique which relies on natural sword movements without Yoki release.
This training of sword movements would surely benefit her use of the Flash-sword and further refine that technique beyond her already established proficiency that she had during the Pieta incident.

It is really hard to tell, but this get me thinking - what if she combine both of the moves? Meaning completely awaken one arm, or more like concentrate all the youki there, and use windcutter to delivery one powerful, nasty cut?

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

This paired with Claire's incredibly steep learning curve leads me to conclude that if she was to resort to the Flash-sword in a battle against Miria's Yoki-Mirage her technique would be more refined, more precise and faster than Miria's mirages. While Miria only uses bursts of Yoki with a followed powering down period, the Flash-sword relies on constant maximum output which could give her the advantage of that powering down time frame (Miria reminds me of a cheetah to some extend).

See above - I think with Ilena's arm more tuned to fast movement, there is no doubt Claire's arm will move way faster than Miria ever could - it's way harder to maintain high speed on the whole body instead of just an arm.

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

For some weird reason i keep thinking that one of the reason's Yagi san gave Claire the Windcutter technique (and Helen the Jean's drill attack) because he felt guilty for murdering those lovely ladies too quickly but what the heck ....

More like Shonen manga "disease" - they have to give the main character new moves once in a while

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

Similarily Miria cannot take down Claire now without resorting to her mirages. Where does it say that the Windcutter requires stamina?
Deneve stating something as unbelievable as that Miria can use her new mirages ad infinitum, she probably just ment that she can use it till she drops or gets hit without having to worry about the greater stamina drain that a Yoki outburst would cause.Thus, playing hit and run is not something that Miria can do as long as she would like to.

More like the numbers she can use it at will be a few hundred, which is way better than before, which is more like 30. Maybe it's the typical "dramatic" effect, but Miria to me doesn't seem to be the endurance type, so I really think Claire has more of a chance of outlasting her.

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

Looks to me like they are pretty much equally exhausted. So, I would say no, Miria does not have the advantage. Claire has more skills to rely on:Flash-sword, Windcutter, Yoki scan(which makes Miria's Yoki outburst less usefull as Claire could predict the amount of power and the direction she would apply it to) and Teresa-Inside status.

That was my point as well - Claire just have way more offensive skill to use, and Miria's "one trick pony" is great and all, but when fighting someone who knows you well, it really doesn't work as well as it should.

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

If that doesn't sound like it hurts. Using your theory, Claire could similiarly aim for Dauf's softspots with her Flash-sword and be more efficient than Miria at injuring him.We don't need to kid ourselves that neither of them would be able to take him down (unless Claire uses her freak-talents)

Not really - Miria and Claire can avoid Riful's level attack, so it suggest Daph cannot hit them for sure. However, since Claire's windcutter has more power to cut, she can just keep on hitting the same "soft" spot (your typical anime trick - keep on attacking a spot - anyspot - until it becomes a weakspot) until it can be damaged (I don't count eyes since I am sure once Daph figure out they can only damage his eyes, he can just cover his eyes). Miria lacks offensive option - I am sure she can run circles and make sure Daph cannot hurt her, but can she take down Daph? Other than tiring him out, I don't see how.

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

Good thing we miraged the dicussion into this thread

We need to make this thread THE THREAD so people read this thread instead of others

[edf91]

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

I think to many good characters have died.
Sometimes it's necessary to make the story go on and develop, but that's not the case with Galatea.

For some strange reason, I see Galatea served as the tough "semi enemy" of Claire so she can help Claire to become more powerful. Almost all of Galatea's skill complement Claire's current moves/strength, so if she taught Claire, it will make Claire much more powerful.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

The characters of the Northern Campaign died for many reasons.
First of all, it was a hopeless mission and situation. It's a scenario that demands casualties, and in the battlefield, no one is safe.
Second, to show how Easley and the Organization play their strategies in the big-schemes of things. It show us how they used their soldiers as pawns to achieve their goals.
Third, to return the focus to the main characters and set a new group that would keep with the story.

And to basically make the audience hate the Org - we know they are bad, but this will make them be more acceptable to the idea of Claire and company running away from the Org.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

And many other reasons as well, but I can't see how Galatea's death would contribute for the story now.
It would only shock the fans with an unnecessary death of a charismatic character.

If she does "train" Claire, I can see it as additional motivation to hunt down Priscilla.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

Plus, she now has an important role in Riful's plans and Clare asked for her as well.
There has to be something that will going on with her.

I can see the next story arc around her - maybe this will lead to Galatea working with Claire

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

The other exception would be a strong psychological problem or trauma, like what happened to Irene or even Audrey.
Something that would make them stop being disposed (or having reasons) to fight.

In Ilena's case, it has more to do with her lack of desire - she see no point in continue growth, since she think she will never be able to beat Priscilla.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

Irene bests Sophia and Noel in all the their stats except by their main stats (Strength for Sophia and Agility for Noel) and sense, which they all have the same (B).
Irene is definitely stronger than Sophia or Noel.

There was never a doubt - Sophia and Noel never even hinted at they can be better than Ilena.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

Yeah, and that's why I thought Galatea should have an A+ on her yoki stat. But I think we already discussed this issue.

Maybe they rank yoki as the yoki reserve of that individual, so in that case, I don't think Galatea has A+ reserve of them - yes, she can make them work for her better, but it doesn't mean she has more of them.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

It's a policy that can change when it regards powerful Claymores.
They sent Clare only to support Ophelia against the single digit AB, though Ophelia could have died if it wasn't by the AB's carelessness.

I personally think Ophelia sucks - it's just her complete disregard for life that makes her good - people hate fighting people that doesn't care about their own bodies.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

Galatea seems to make her missions and quests all alone.
Probably because the Org trusts in Galatea's abilities and they know that she can handle most of the things that could appear in her way.

I think it's because it would be near impossible to ambush her, and she is unlikely to get involve in things that she cannot handle.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

I thought something like it as well.

Galatea is individually strong and can take care of things by herself.
She could appear in rare occasions and critical moments to help her comrades.
She has also that trait to always appear on important moments.

Also, her presence in the fab 7 would somehow steal Miria's thunder.

She is your typical "helping NPC" - she will never join you, but would help you out from time to time type.

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

I really hope she isn't going to end up like Archer.
It would be cruelty against me.
Two favorite characters having the same Fate would be sad.

Hard to tell - maybe they will give her the same "fate" as Ilena and company - they just "die," but cannot tell for certain.

[Tevourious]

Lets not forget the simple fact, Galatea fought Duff head on. Of course it was a loosing battle and Duff was pretty much stuck like Pooh during the fights. Still though, Duff is no slouch and she did okay. So don't sell Galatea short, Miata isn't going to walk all over her. Theres no telling what shes been doing during the seven years. Miata is powerful too though, shes killed at least one awakened being by her damn self. Clarice doesn't count as help LOL. Question though, did she do that while on the pills? If so, thats pretty badass.

Heres a fun question. Duff vs Our Favorite Silver Eyed Lion. LOL I can just see Duff throwing a tantrum to Riful. "Wauuugh it's not fair he won't hold still!!!"

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by BaalChaamon

Her attacks draw from the momentum she creates with her legs.She could possibly go faster than Claire's awakened legs if she tried the same as speed is her only superior asset in battle (leaving out leadership). But as we have seen in the case of Ophelia and Hilda, awakening may lead to some odd outcomes and we do not how it affects certain stats. Not to mention that controlled awakening might be even totally different story all together.

I think both Hilda and Ophelia held back fyi, Hilda for Miria, and Ophelia because she knew she had failed in her objective to kill Priscilla, not to mention she awakened herself.

I have already stated that Claire is an oddball and a freak experiment. Initially being/appearing weaker than her companions come with her character stereotype.True she was disadvantaged in their little encounter till she used her Ex-Irenes' arm. I think its fair to say that after 7+ years that arm has become hers with every right.Further, her swordsmanship with the Flash-sword is yet to be revealed at this stage and it is likely that its improved significantly.

I am certain her Flash-Sword now is basically a combination of both the Flash-Sword and Wind cutter, with solid high speed and solid strength/accuracy.

Deneve:"The one who has had the hardest time in these 7 years must be her..." (in reference to Claire)

--> Shonen manga+weakest character+hardest training= MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT

Lol, true.

which could be a greater improvement from a lower baselevel in Claire's case in comparison to a already better established Miria who had a lower growth rate in comparison, but thinking back to the War in the North, she was already fighting on par with Flora so she couldn't have been too far behind Miria in her skill enhancements.

Clare and Miria seem to have kept even ofter the 7 years, as by the end of the battle for Pieta, Miria and Clare had similar Yoki-strength.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Flash-sword and Windcutter:
Speak, #15 Deneve: "Enhancing the natural sword movements without yoma energy release...a style that mainly requires concentration and full use of that right arm's true potential..."

Considering that Claire already had the perfect arm for the Flash-sword she started off with a higher level of potential and possible proficiency in regards to the Wind cutter technique, than for example Flora herself. The Flash-sword requires a much higher level of concentration and swordmanship than the Windcutter, a technique which relies on natural sword movements without Yoki release.
This training of sword movements would surely benefit her use of the Flash-sword and further refine that technique beyond her already established proficiency that she had during the Pieta incident.

I agree, Clare's Wind cutter is probably better then Flora's now, and her flash-sword should benefit from it as well.

This paired with Claire's incredibly steep learning curve leads me to conclude that if she was to resort to the Flash-sword in a battle against Miria's Yoki-Mirage her technique would be more refined, more precise and faster than Miria's mirages. While Miria only uses bursts of Yoki with a followed powering down period, the Flash-sword relies on constant maximum output which could give her the advantage of that powering down time frame (Miria reminds me of a cheetah to some extend).

Miria's Yoki-less Mirages could easily be interchangeable with her Yoki-powered ones, so I could see her switching between the two as needed in order to conserve her strength. While combining the Flash-Sword and Wind cutter would probably be quite taxing on Clare.

For some weird reason i keep thinking that one of the reason's Yagi san gave Claire the Windcutter technique (and Helen the Jean's drill attack) because he felt guilty for murdering those lovely ladies too quickly but what the heck ....

Lol, I get that feeling as well, not to mention their abilities mesh well.


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Similarily Miria cannot take down Claire now without resorting to her mirages. Where does it say that the Windcutter requires stamina?
Deneve stating something as unbelievable as that Miria can use her new mirages ad infinitum, she probably just ment that she can use it till she drops or gets hit without having to worry about the greater stamina drain that a Yoki outburst would cause.Thus, playing hit and run is not something that Miria can do as long as she would like to.

The end of the duel between the two shows both of them were tired, but Miria attempted to push Clare instead of playing hit and run like she should have. Clare's wind cutter/Flash Sword is indeed potent, but Clare herself cannot keep up with Miria's Yoki-less Mirages, let alone her Yoki-powered ones. So Clare throws the Wind cutter out in order to match Miria's speed, but she would not be able to push on Miria as Miria could simply mirage away and break the pace of the battle.

I believe that Miria's ability is like moving normally to her now, it can tire her out, but it is not any more tiring then normal movement, as it is her "base" speed now.

Spoiler for Claymore Breathing technique:

Looks to me like they are pretty much equally exhausted. So, I would say no, Miria does not have the advantage. Claire has more skills to rely on:Flash-sword, Wind cutter, Yoki scan(which makes Miria's Yoki outburst less usefull as Claire could predict the amount of power and the direction she would apply it to) and Teresa-Inside status.

Miria was also pushing Clare, instead of using hit and run like I mentioned, she was playing into Clare's strength instead of her own, and yet came out even.

Clare's Yoki-sensing is indeed advantageous, but could confuse her if Miria switched between Yoki-less and Burst Mirages.

Not to mention Miria's base stats (not counting any special skills) are higher.

Nothing unexpected there, but hey I understand its hard to fight the fanboyism. I struggle too

We all do

Spoiler for Size and Manga:

If that doesn't sound like it hurts. Using your theory, Claire could similiarly aim for Dauf's softspots with her Flash-sword and be more efficient than Miria at injuring him.We don't need to kid ourselves that neither of them would be able to take him down (unless Claire uses her freak-talents)

Flash-Sword, even when guided by Yoki, does not seem able to aim for specific spots, and Clare herself is slower then her arm, so moving into range takes longer then it would for Miria, but yes, Dauf definitely has the advantage in that type of fight.

Good thing we miraged the dicussion into this thread

No kidding

--------------------------------

Never like Mortal Kombat - more of the SF2 style. Anyway, since I was using SF2 as a base, in SF2, when you block, you block - unless you are blocking standing up, and the enemy sweep, you don't take damage (unless they throw or use specials), even if they move to other side. I know it shouldn't work, since you really cannot block the back, but in SF2 engine, it doesn't matter if it hit the back - it's still a regular hit. I know we are getting way off topic here, but I see Miria's mirage move as something that let you score a hit, not something that would guarantee it does damage.

The problem with the fighting game logic is this.

Speed= Momentum= Striking Power. So Miria's blows while performing the Phantom technique hit significantly harder then they normally would.

Hit and run does drain stamina too - in the manga, both were breathing heavily after their little "spar," so the edge doesn't just easily go to Miria.

However in that situation, Miria was not doing Hit and Run attacks, she was trying to press Clare, who simply had to defend herself with the Wind Cutter, so naturally Miria would grow tired after matching speed with the Wind Cutter blow for blow.

Unless Claire decide to screw it and go awaken

Worse case scenario, but I hope Clare never decided to "screw it" as that would spell bad news for everyone.

There isn't that many soft spot other than eyes, and even Galatea, who has pretty good base stat, need to use youki to cut open Daph's mouth, so Miria fighting Daph is already at disadvantage (I don't see Galatea isn't stronger than Miria normally).

Galatea was also able to cut off his hand due to his "softer" spots, and without Yoki, so he has more weak spots then his eyes, it is just that you require an opening to strike them, and Miria's speed allows that.

That was my point as well - Claire just have way more offensive skill to use, and Miria's "one trick pony" is great and all, but when fighting someone who knows you well, it really doesn't work as well as it should

Clare's technique has alot more limitations then Miria's as Miria's technique allows her to move faster as a whole, while Clare still moves her normal speed, but her arm just attacks faster. So while Miria's skill is an Attack/Defense skill, Clare's is primarily an attack skill.

So Clare's technique is much more of a "one trick pony" then Miria's by far.

------------------------------

Lets not forget the simple fact, Galatea fought Duff head on. Of course it was a loosing battle and Duff was pretty much stuck like Pooh during the fights. Still though, Duff is no slouch and she did okay. So don't sell Galatea short, Miata isn't going to walk all over her. Theres no telling what shes been doing during the seven years. Miata is powerful too though, shes killed at least one awakened being by her damn self. Clarice doesn't count as help LOL. Question though, did she do that while on the pills? If so, thats pretty badass.

I have never said Miata is going to walk all over Galatea, I just don't see Galatea winning the fight, and yes Miata was on the Yoki-supressing pills when she killed that AB. Clarice also mentions that they have fought "countless" Yoma and ABs since their journey began, and Miata has slaughtered all of them.

Heres a fun question. Duff vs Our Favorite Silver Eyed Lion. LOL I can just see Duff throwing a tantrum to Riful. "Wauuugh it's not fair he won't hold still!!!"

I am thinking Stalemate, as Rigaldo would have a hard time getting past Dauf's armor and Dauf would have a hard time just hitting Rigaldo.

[edf91]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

The end of the duel between the two shows both of them were tired, but Miria attempted to push Clare instead of playing hit and run like she should have. Clare's wind cutter/Flash Sword is indeed potent, but Clare herself cannot keep up with Miria's Yoki-less Mirages, let alone her Yoki-powered ones. So Clare throws the Wind cutter out in order to match Miria's speed, but she would not be able to push on Miria as Miria could simply mirage away and break the pace of the battle.

I believe that Miria's ability is like moving normally to her now, it can tire her out, but it is not any more tiring then normal movement, as it is her "base" speed now.

You sure about that? In her normal speed, Miria isn't that much quicker than Claire, so if Miria want to get away, then Miria need to use the "boost" to get away. Each in and out requires effort, and eventually, it is going to tax her body. Basically, a Miria vs Claire is a long wind battle, as each side would not be able to take much advantage over the other, unless both decide to push way past their own limit. Remember, if Claire is practice his youki skill, she can just only use windcutter when she feel Miria's youki is close enough, so the effort she put in won't be as much. At the end, it's all about who can outlast the other.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Miria was also pushing Clare, instead of using hit and run like I mentioned, she was playing into Clare's strength instead of her own, and yet came out even.

Claire also didn't do much other than her "normal stuff" in the beginning, therefore giving Miria the first few hits in. I just see them basically testing each other to see if they can maintain their "youki-less" move while being attack pretty aggressively, at least that's how I see Miria's intention is.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Clare's Yoki-sensing is indeed advantageous, but could confuse her if Miria switched between Yoki-less and Burst Mirages.

Depends on whether Claire keep to her guns and basically let Miria run herself tired - remember, when Miria switch to the "high end" mirage, she would more likely uses more youki, therefore making it easier for Claire to tell where she is, and therefore, prepare accordingly.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Not to mention Miria's base stats (not counting any special skills) are higher.

For sure in the past, although I am not sure about the "base stat" now, since Claire was able to do basic spar with Miria until she uses her mirage, the gap between them shouldn't be that big (I mean basic stat like strength, agility (non-boost)).

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Speed= Momentum= Striking Power. So Miria's blows while performing the Phantom technique hit significantly harder then they normally would.

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen it. Same with Claire's quicksword/windcutter - they move way faster than Miria, but it doesn't pack that much of a "punch."

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Worse case scenario, but I hope Clare never decided to "screw it" as that would spell bad news for everyone.

Unless they pull the anime and have Raki come out

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Galatea was also able to cut off his hand due to his "softer" spots, and without Yoki, so he has more weak spots then his eyes, it is just that you require an opening to strike them, and Miria's speed allows that.

I agree that there are more "soft spots" then just the eyes, but is any of them big enough to kill Daph? Galatea seems to think you need a heavy hitter to take down Daph, but Miria's style doesn't seem to pack enough punch to do the job. I don't think Claire can do it currently either, unless she modify her technique to do more damage.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Clare's technique has alot more limitations then Miria's as Miria's technique allows her to move faster as a whole, while Clare still moves her normal speed, but her arm just attacks faster. So while Miria's skill is an Attack/Defense skill, Clare's is primarily an attack skill.

So Clare's technique is much more of a "one trick pony" then Miria's by far.

What I mean is that Miria lack Claire's exceptional youki detection skill, so her fight against good opponents would most likely have to rely on her mirages. At least Claire can choose between really quick but not so powerful strike, or quick and precise strike. Maybe it's due to my "love" of the good old Saint Seiya, I can see Claire modifying her technique to do major damage instead of the just lots and lots of quick strike (meoter punch to comet punch anyone? ). Miria just seems to have that one/two move with intelligence, so she seems more suited to stay back and do the in-and-out attack and let her teammates do the damaging attack. It just seems that the manga writer decide to not give Miria any new "tricks," while giving everybody else one, so somehow that concept of "one trick pony" stick in my head...

[Tevourious]

Hey wait a minute Dauph kept complaining how much it hurts when the girls were taking pot shots on him. Teresa noted in her side story that Awaken Beings don't feel pain when she loped off Rosemary's hand. So either Dauph is a sissy lol or he was just clowing around. Or Rosemary was a freak.

Great Discussion btw very enlightening

[BaalChaamon]

I think both Hilda and Ophelia held back fyi, Hilda for Miria, and Ophelia because she knew she had failed in her objective to kill Priscilla, not to mention she awakened herself.

I wasn't talking about them holding back, but how their stats altered in various ways that were different from each other. Awakening seems to push certain stats further than others, what all AB beings seem to have in common is their immense speed but I could see Miria becoming much faster than for example, a Claire with awakened legs.

I am certain her Flash-Sword now is basically a combination of both the Flash-Sword and Wind cutter, with solid high speed and solid strength/accuracy

That is what I keep thinking as well.

Miria's Yoki-less Mirages could easily be interchangeable with her Yoki-powered ones, so I could see her switching between the two as needed in order to conserve her strength. While combining the Flash-Sword and Wind cutter would probably be quite taxing on Clare.

I think switching between Yoki-free and Yoki-burst mirages would be equally taxing for Miria. It would be something along the lines of switching between jogging and sprinting at maximum speed, do it a couple of times and you'll feel the strain. Claire doesn't necessarily have to combine both techniques, her Flash-Sword could have simply taken over the traits of the windcutter in regards to precision and striking strenght. Switching between them would impose similiar restrictions and strains to what Miria would experience when switching.

Miria was also pushing Clare, instead of using hit and run like I mentioned, she was playing into Clare's strength instead of her own, and yet came out even.

Clare's Yoki-sensing is indeed advantageous, but could confuse her if Miria switched between Yoki-less and Burst Mirages.

This is pretty much Miria's fighting style so it seems.Looks like her new mirage has an even more close-combat focus than her Yoki one as it allows her to fight closer to the opponent with more precision in her movement.Simply miragin in and mirage out for a hit and run (as in further away from the enemy) would be too inefficient and prolong the battle, she has to circle the enemy to find a weak spot and keep the enemy on his/her toes. Slowing down would make her lose her momentum and her strategy would fall apart. Against someone like Claire who can use the Wind Cutter, which acts something like an all surrounding shield against enemy attacks, Miria is unable to land a hit using her new mirages. If she was to use her Yoki mirage, Claire could switch to Flash-Sword (HAIL TO IRENE-SAMA FOR THIS MAGNIFICANT TECHNIQUE) to even the odds.

I doubt Miria could confuse her by switching; first off all it would strain her, secondly Claire is able to predict Yoki based movements/attacks precisely as we have seen against the AB in the Slasher arc and Rigardo's attack in Pieta. AB strike with full Yoki output and the Slasher arcs' AB Yoki level (not to mention Rigardo's) is much higher than Miria's so Claire should have an easier time reading the flow and direction of Miria's mirage.

Also, the only reason why Claire's Yoki-sensing technique didnt work for example against Ophelia's Rippling sword was because of the small high speed movements of that technique.

She could very well predict the direction but could not block those tiny movements that went past her block. Yoki-mirages are a cruder movement than for example the Rippling Sword and the yoki free one's so Claire shouldn't have a hard time predicting where Miria is going and how fast she is getting there.

Landing a pre-emptive strike on Miria on the location she is miraging to using the faster Flash-Sword is not impossible for Claire. As Miria would "warp-out" (yeah too many Star Trek Marathon sessions...) she could find herself in the shooting star slashes of the Flash-Sword.

If Miria switched to Yoki-free mirages Claire could switch to Windcutter and counter.

Not to mention Miria's base stats (not counting any special skills) are higher.

See my response to edf91 for stats

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Originally Posted by edf91

You sure about that? In her normal speed, Miria isn't that much quicker than Claire, so if Miria want to get away, then Miria need to use the "boost" to get away. Each in and out requires effort, and eventually, it is going to tax her body. Basically, a Miria vs Claire is a long wind battle, as each side would not be able to take much advantage over the other, unless both decide to push way past their own limit. Remember, if Claire is practice his youki skill, she can just only use windcutter when she feel Miria's youki is close enough, so the effort she put in won't be as much. At the end, it's all about who can outlast the other.

Claire also didn't do much other than her "normal stuff" in the beginning, therefore giving Miria the first few hits in. I just see them basically testing each other to see if they can maintain their "youki-less" move while being attack pretty aggressively, at least that's how I see Miria's intention is.

Exactly, Claire wasn't using any of her techniques to begin with while Miria already used her Mirages so crediting these hits to Claire being disadvantaged and weaker is bit farfetched. Especially considering both have similiar Yoki-level (as stated by Pricscilla during Pieta) and Claire having made significant improvements since then. Both of their baseline stats should be similiar with Miria beats Claire at Speed and Leadership, while Claire is on par with her on strenght and Yoki, but probably ahead of her in Mental state (due to Wind-cutter and previous Flash-sword training), and Yoki-sensing.

And as we have seen in the case of Teresa, Yoki sensing makes all the difference. Not saying that Claire's proficiency is even close to Teresa's but she has definitely trained that department of hers as she still has her vendetta against Priscilla. Having Riful search for Yoki scanners and sensors gives further credit to any ability that is even the slightest related to what Galatea, Teresa, Tabs and Claire can do.

I agree that there are more "soft spots" then just the eyes, but is any of them big enough to kill Daph? Galatea seems to think you need a heavy hitter to take down Daph, but Miria's style doesn't seem to pack enough punch to do the job. I don't think Claire can do it currently either, unless she modify her technique to do more damage.

To beat Duff one needs a heavy hitter, the Windcutter would possibly be better suited for a task like that than the Flash-Sword but who knows, a improved Flash-Sword could do the trick.

I agree, Miria's technique only gives her the opportunity to strike but is not an offensive technique in the sense that i automatically has the potential to inflict damage. In that context she could possibly run around Duff, scratch him here and there and maybe land a hit on one of his soft spots but not e.g chop of his hand. Miria just doesn't have the strenght for that. Fast characters rely on the momentum they create with their speed, they don't have enough punch in their attack to deliver strong blows to the enemy defenses but try to wear the enemy out and annoy them with mosquito-bite like attacks.

Not really - Miria and Claire can avoid Riful's level attack, so it suggest Daph cannot hit them for sure. However, since Claire's windcutter has more power to cut, she can just keep on hitting the same "soft" spot (your typical anime trick - keep on attacking a spot - anyspot - until it becomes a weakspot) until it can be damaged (I don't count eyes since I am sure once Daph figure out they can only damage his eyes, he can just cover his eyes). Miria lacks offensive option - I am sure she can run circles and make sure Daph cannot hurt her, but can she take down Daph? Other than tiring him out, I don't see how.

We have only seen them evade Riful's attacks in low visibility terrain with suppressed Yoki. While it is true that both are fast I find it hard to believe they could outrun Riful in an open field. Remember how amazingly quick Riful disappeared after the Witches' Maw arc.

Speaking of the Duff situation, I believe that Helen's Drill attack might be even more powerful than Jean's as she could do more than 21 rotations (am gonna miss Jean saying her lines )and elongate her arm while she is doing the drilling giving it a further power push through thrusting.
I think Tevourious raised that point in the Jap. manga thread too.

What I mean is that Miria lack Claire's exceptional youki detection skill, so her fight against good opponents would most likely have to rely on her mirages. At least Claire can choose between really quick but not so powerful strike, or quick and precise strike. Maybe it's due to my "love" of the good old Saint Seiya, I can see Claire modifying her technique to do major damage instead of the just lots and lots of quick strike (meoter punch to comet punch anyone? ). Miria just seems to have that one/two move with intelligence, so she seems more suited to stay back and do the in-and-out attack and let her teammates do the damaging attack. It just seems that the manga writer decide to not give Miria any new "tricks," while giving everybody else one, so somehow that concept of "one trick pony" stick in my head...

I agree, Claire has the advantage over Miria due to her skill set
New Mirage<-->Wind Cutter
Yoki-Mirage<-->Flash-Sword/ Wind Cutter (or in combo?)
Yoki-Mirage < Yoki sensing
Yoki-Mirage<<<Yoki-sensing + Flash-Sword

not to mention Teresa's spirit watching over Claire-san

[BaalChaamon]

Beautiful avatar pic of our beloved lady Fate archer

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by edf91

You sure about that? In her normal speed, Miria isn't that much quicker than Claire, so if Miria want to get away, then Miria need to use the "boost" to get away. Each in and out requires effort, and eventually, it is going to tax her body. Basically, a Miria vs Claire is a long wind battle, as each side would not be able to take much advantage over the other, unless both decide to push way past their own limit. Remember, if Claire is practice his youki skill, she can just only use windcutter when she feel Miria's youki is close enough, so the effort she put in won't be as much. At the end, it's all about who can outlast the other.

Miria's normal speed is her new Phantom ability, Deneve even said it herself, Miria raised her base speed, which is why she can now perform her new phantom without the use of Yoki. Clare's Yoki-sensing is also much more limited then Teresa's. She has a hard time switching from defensive to offensive, in her fight with Dauf she was struck by Dauf's rods, despite her ability to sense them coming.

Claire also didn't do much other than her "normal stuff" in the beginning, therefore giving Miria the first few hits in. I just see them basically testing each other to see if they can maintain their "youki-less" move while being attack pretty aggressively, at least that's how I see Miria's intention is.

I also believe Miria was testing Clare's abilities, she wanted to see if Clare would falter if she pushed her as hard as possible, which plays against Miria's own strengths.

Depends on whether Claire keep to her guns and basically let Miria run herself tired - remember, when Miria switch to the "high end" mirage, she would more likely uses more youki, therefore making it easier for Claire to tell where she is, and therefore, prepare accordingly.

The problem is, it is quite easy to get close with her "new" mirage, then she can simply switch to her Yoki-enchanced one at close range and strike while Clare is attempting to counter the yoki-less Mirage with her Wind Cutter.

For sure in the past, although I am not sure about the "base stat" now, since Claire was able to do basic spar with Miria until she uses her mirage, the gap between them shouldn't be that big (I mean basic stat like strength, agility (non-boost)).

Miria's basic agility is her new Mirage now, unlike Clare's Wind Cutter, which requires her to sheath her sword and only effects her arm, Miria's new Phantom can be used for all her normal movements.

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen it. Same with Claire's quicksword/windcutter - they move way faster than Miria, but it doesn't pack that much of a "punch."

The problem with the Flash-Sword was its lack of striking power, because as soon as it hits it starts to attempt another strike, thus the reason it is hard to control and wastes alot of energy. The Wind Cutter hits harder because it is more controlled and can put more if it's momentum into the strike.

I also am not sure how the Wind Cutter moves "faster" then Miria, as Miria dodged every single blow that Clare threw out, and Miria is moving her entire body while Clare is just focusing on her arm.

Unless they pull the anime and have Raki come out

That thought definetly deserves a

I agree that there are more "soft spots" then just the eyes, but is any of them big enough to kill Daph? Galatea seems to think you need a heavy hitter to take down Daph, but Miria's style doesn't seem to pack enough punch to do the job. I don't think Claire can do it currently either, unless she modify her technique to do more damage.

As I said earlier, I don't think either of them could kill Dauf, but damn could they give him a bad day. They are both capable of injuring him, but I don't think either of them could kill him.

What I mean is that Miria lack Claire's exceptional youki detection skill, so her fight against good opponents would most likely have to rely on her mirages. At least Claire can choose between really quick but not so powerful strike, or quick and precise strike. Maybe it's due to my "love" of the good old Saint Seiya, I can see Claire modifying her technique to do major damage instead of the just lots and lots of quick strike (meoter punch to comet punch anyone? ). Miria just seems to have that one/two move with intelligence, so she seems more suited to stay back and do the in-and-out attack and let her teammates do the damaging attack. It just seems that the manga writer decide to not give Miria any new "tricks," while giving everybody else one, so somehow that concept of "one trick pony" stick in my head...

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The thing is, Miria's single move is far more flexible in a battle when compared to Clare's Flash-Sword/Wind Cutter, or even her Yoki-sensing (although Yoki sensing is a huge advantage against ABs.)

Miria's ability is more of a "catch-all" technique that works in any situation, and generally extremely well.

While Clare's Windcutter is a useful offensive skill, it requires her sword to be in its sheath, and her Yoki-detection has its limits as well, as proven by her past fights.

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I agree, Claire has the advantage over Miria due to her skill set
New Mirage<-->Wind Cutter
Yoki-Mirage<-->Flash-Sword/ Wind Cutter (or in combo?)
Yoki-Mirage < Yoki sensing
Yoki-Mirage<<<Yoki-sensing + Flash-Sword

not to mention Teresa's spirit watching over Claire-san

I agree with the first two, but Clare's Yoki sensing is not perfect, as it relies on Clare's own reaction time, and as proven by her fight with Dauf, it is no where near Teresa's level yet.

We have also not been considering that Miria could probably control her Yoki-powered Mirages alot better now, in a simliar fashion to Clare with her theoretically improved Flash-Sword.

We have only seen them evade Riful's attacks in low visibility terrain with suppressed Yoki. While it is true that both are fast I find it hard to believe they could outrun Riful in an open field. Remember how amazingly quick Riful disappeared after the Witches' Maw arc.

Speaking of the Duff situation, I believe that Helen's Drill attack might be even more powerful than Jean's as she could do more than 21 rotations (am gonna miss Jean saying her lines )and elongate her arm while she is doing the drilling giving it a further power push through thrusting.
I think Tevourious raised that point in the Jap. manga thread too.

Yeah, I think terrain played a large part in the fab 4s escape against Riful.

as for Dauf, I think Helen's drill attack would obliterate him, especially if she had any sort of help.

To beat Duff one needs a heavy hitter, the Windcutter would possibly be better suited for a task like that than the Flash-Sword but who knows, a improved Flash-Sword could do the trick.

It is possible that the Wind Cutter could hurt Dauf, but I find myself doubting it.

I agree, Miria's technique only gives her the opportunity to strike but is not an offensive technique in the sense that i automatically has the potential to inflict damage. In that context she could possibly run around Duff, scratch him here and there and maybe land a hit on one of his soft spots but not e.g chop of his hand. Miria just doesn't have the strenght for that. Fast characters rely on the momentum they create with their speed, they don't have enough punch in their attack to deliver strong blows to the enemy defenses but try to wear the enemy out and annoy them with mosquito-bite like attacks.

Clare's Flash-Sword/Wind Cutter does not have automatic potential to inflict damage either by that logic.

Fast Characters are often their for the finishing strike, or to hit the opponents weak spots, as they have the speed to do it. So I think Miria could certainly injure Dauf, but I don't know if any of the Fab 4 could take him 1v1.

Exactly, Claire wasn't using any of her techniques to begin with while Miria already used her Mirages so crediting these hits to Claire being disadvantaged and weaker is bit farfetched. Especially considering both have similiar Yoki-level (as stated by Pricscilla during Pieta) and Claire having made significant improvements since then. Both of their baseline stats should be similiar with Miria beats Claire at Speed and Leadership, while Claire is on par with her on strenght and Yoki, but probably ahead of her in Mental state (due to Wind-cutter and previous Flash-sword training), and Yoki-sensing.

Yoki-sensing has its limits, as I stated earlier, and I am not sure about Clare's mental yet, but I certainly hope that it has improved.

Miria's new "technique" has been described as an increase to her base speed, so Miria has made significant improvements as well, although I agree with your assement with your state comparison here.

Speed << Miria
Strength =
Yoki =
Leadership << Miria
Mental = or < Clare

And as we have seen in the case of Teresa, Yoki sensing makes all the difference. Not saying that Claire's proficiency is even close to Teresa's but she has definitely trained that department of hers as she still has her vendetta against Priscilla. Having Riful search for Yoki scanners and sensors gives further credit to any ability that is even the slightest related to what Galatea, Teresa, Tabs and Claire can do

Yoki-sensing is undoubtadly one of the most powerful skills out there, but it does have its limits, especially when concerining Clare.

Clare has only used ever used the skill defensivly, and has still been injured while doing so. Ophelia's attack shows us that minute changes in high-speed movement can confuse Yoki-sensing, and Dauf's attacks show us that even when Clare can see an attack coming, she cannot necessarily dodge it when it is moving fast enough.

Miria's new Mirage could allow her to naturally do what Ophelia's technique did, and confuse Clare's Yoki sensing, Clare would then have to resort to defending herself with the Flash-Sword which is = by Miria's Yoki Mirages, or Wind Cutter which is = to Miria's base movement.

and unlike Miria, Clare's technique is harder to interchange with, because the Windcutter requires her to sheath her sword, while the Flash-Sword strikes as fast as possible without pausing.

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Had some thoughts over the nature of their techniques as well.

Flash-Sword: Continueous use of Yoki to empower an arm into a semi-controllable berserk state, drains energy quickly.

Mirage: Short Burst of Yoki that grants a incrediable boost to speed for the entire body, even creating after-images, drains energy quickly.

Wind Cutter: Requires the Sword to be sheathed but grants the user more Precision and and striking power.

"New" Mirage: Slightly slower then the old Mirage, but still leaves after-images, allows more precise movements and does not drain a significant amount of energy.

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New Chapter is almost here >.<

[khryoleoz]

I haven't been following this thread for a while, but it seems that we've switched over to Clare vs Miria.


1) Running fast and using that speed to enhance attack velocity and using what is by nature a high velocity attack involve different mechanics and yield different results. No one can dispute that under normal circumstances Miria clearly has the edge in "running" speed. But Clare demonstrates that she had improved her ability to react and respond to such an attack effectively. So in a state of yoki-supression, it's a stalemate.

2) In a state of yoki-release, Clare has just shown superiority here. She's miles ahead of any of the fab 4, including Miria. Clare's latest semi-awakening increased her threshold beyond any of the other 3. She demonstrated being faster than Rigald, who was faster than Miria. There's no reason to not suppose she can't tap into this new enhanced ability. I'm willing to believe that as speed is Miria's natural gift, with further semi-awakenings she'll be THE fastest "runner" there is. It's a mystery what other abilities will be enhanced so I can't even speculate about it.

3) The differences in preemptive yoki sensing ability is what account for Ophelia being able to defeat Clare's with the rippling sword technique. Quicksword, which defeated Rippling Sword, could not alone defeat yoki-sensing of Teresa's caliber. So all that that scene showed was a deficiency in Clare, not in yoki-sensing as an ability in general. If Miria were to use yoki-powered mirages, Clare will just be able to sense this too. If she still sucked at this ability, then yes Miria could do something to confuse Clare's perception akin to the Rippling Sword. But it won't necessarily work. Clare can create a barrior for herself that Miria will not be able to penetrate using the Quicksword. So, stalemate again. Clare will have to resort to playing the speed game, which will force Miria to go faster, and Faster, and FASTER. We can guess what happens after.