AnimeSuki Forums

Desti-Fate · 2006-02-01, 13:13

Thing is, most Israelis could speak English well. And there's virtually no Hebrew speakers outside of Israel. Obviously, it's your group and you can do as like, but subs in English would be useful to a larger group of people while still being useful to Israelis.

Although there may be plenty of people within Israel who don't speak English, and there's usually plenty of English subs about. Then again there might not be.

You'd have to judge on a show-by-show basis whether it would be more useful to sub in Hebrew than English. Assuming that your goal is to make things easier for people rather than just doing because you enjoy it, in which case do as you like.

FurryCurry · 2006-02-02, 05:12

I see nothing at all wrong with "native language" translation efforts such as yours.

Another benefit to such work is is that it can prevent "leakage" of fansubs done in english back into countries where some series may already be licensed (ie: US/R1) if that issue is of concern to you, and it also might minimize difficuties with english language licensors.

Let them whine, and laugh in their faces.

gnuffiehot · 2006-02-02, 07:04

Honestly, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with non-english fansubs. I used to sub Jigoku Shoujo into Dutch (yes, DUTCH >.>) and we only got positive responses.

It's always good to fansub in different languages, because that can add to making anime more popular throughout the world, which again translates into more sales for the animation companies. So even financial-wise, I think it's a great thing ^_^

Maceart · 2006-02-02, 23:31

There's lots more non-english fansubs than there are of english ones. If you look around the chinese/korean fansubbing sites, you'll see that about every anime that ever came out has been fansubbed, although the Chinese don't like to share very much (torrents die after a week or so...) so you'll have to use emule (e-snail by my definition) to get it.

poetic scarecrow · 2006-02-03, 16:40

[I'm one of Random Otaku's friends and I'm a Anti-Hebrew-Fansub.]

Hebrew fansubs (I don't know about other Non-English funsubs) are'nt bad, they're just pointless.

Even after reading this thread, and countless hours of arguing with some Hebrew fansubbers on some israeli anime forums, I can see only one plus in Hebrew fansubs and a lot of minuses.

PLUS: It's esaier for most Hebrew speakers to watch anime with Hebrew translation then with English translation.

MINUSES:
- Most of the Hebrew speakers who have potential for being anime-fans know English almost as good as they know Hebrew.
- English is a much richer lanuage then Hebrew.
- Most (if not all) of the Hebrew fansubs are second-handed translation.
- ALL of the shows which are translated into Hebrew were already translated to English.
- Less people => Less leachers.
- Less people => Smaller groups => More mistakes.

With all of these, it's clear to me that Random Otaku is just wasting his time.
I'm sure he does enjoys it, I can understand it, but does he enjoys it enough to ignore the fact that it's POINTLESS?

Draneor · 2006-02-03, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by poetic scarecrow

- English is a much richer language then Hebrew.

Assuming that there are languages that are richer than others—a hypothesis I do not agree with—in this case, I do not see how English would have greater expressive power in relation to anime than Hebrew would. A common belief among many linguists is that all languages are equally capable of expressing ideas that are meaningful to them [1]. If for example Hebrew doesn’t have a word for a kimono, that problem is easily solved by either borrowing the word from Japanese or making a new word according to its word-formation rules. Certainly, some languages prefer to borrow more than others (such as English and Japanese). While I do not know the preference(s) for the Hebrew language, I am sure it does have a method of inventing new words. I personally do not see the evidence to postulate that any language is more favorable to translate anime into. The only “rich language” for this medium would be Japanese and that is only because the original dialogue is in it.

Other than that, I did find your arguments interesting. Nevertheless, I still think that translations into languages other than English are beneficial.

[1] I’m going to ignore the debate over the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and linguistic determinism. Certainly, if that were true, then certain languages could be better at expressing a concept than other languages. I personally haven't seen enough evidence to support it.

Sun-Ku · 2006-02-03, 21:10

There are about 100 Million germans out there, but if you look for german fansubber s you must dug deep.
There IS a huge german anime fanbase out there, BUT

- English is very common among germans (min 5-8 years of school english for everyone)
- Most people who dont speak or unlearned english won´t watch anime or prefer german dubs
- the huge amount of fansites and forums are in english

i watch animes in english because i´ve done it since years, and a little refresh-renew on my own english skills. (Yea self writing sucks, but i understand most spoken/written english very well).

Random Otaku · 2006-02-04, 08:54

Quote:

- Less people => Smaller groups => More mistakes.

I fail to see the logic of such a claim.

zalas · 2006-02-04, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draneor

Assuming that there are languages that are richer than others—a hypothesis I do not agree with—in this case, I do not see how English would have greater expressive power in relation to anime than Hebrew would. A common belief among many linguists is that all languages are equally capable of expressing ideas that are meaningful to them [1]. If for example Hebrew doesn’t have a word for a kimono, that problem is easily solved by either borrowing the word from Japanese or making a new word according to its word-formation rules. Certainly, some languages prefer to borrow more than others (such as English and Japanese). While I do not know the preference(s) for the Hebrew language, I am it does have a method of inventing new words. I personally do not see the evidence to postulate that any language is more favorable to translate anime into. The only “rich language” for this medium would be Japanese and that is only because the original dialogue is in it.

Other than that, I did find your arguments interesting. Nevertheless, I still think that translations into languages other than English are beneficial.

Assuming one isn't willing to simply borrow the word from Japanese, one would have to rewrite the word in Hebrew, which may or may not end up being longer in relative length (compared to typical lengths of sentences in that language) than a similar rewriting in English. Considering the fact that subtitles have limited space, length does play a role in how expressive one can be given a fixed amount of space in which to write.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Otaku

I fail to see the logic of such a claim.

If the translation skill of a translator is a random variable with a, say, Gaussian distribution, then the more translators you have, the higher the chance of getting a translator whose skill is above a certain threshold, which means the higher chance that you'll be able to find a "good" translator who doesn't make as many mistakes.

poetic scarecrow · 2006-02-04, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draneor

Assuming that there are languages that are richer than others—a hypothesis I do not agree with—in this case, I do not see how English would have greater expressive power in relation to anime than Hebrew would. A common belief among many linguists is that all languages are equally capable of expressing ideas that are meaningful to them [1]. If for example Hebrew doesn’t have a word for a kimono, that problem is easily solved by either borrowing the word from Japanese or making a new word according to its word-formation rules. Certainly, some languages prefer to borrow more than others (such as English and Japanese). While I do not know the preference(s) for the Hebrew language, I am it does have a method of inventing new words. I personally do not see the evidence to postulate that any language is more favorable to translate anime into. The only “rich language” for this medium would be Japanese and that is only because the original dialogue is in it.

Other than that, I did find your arguments interesting. Nevertheless, I still think that translations into languages other than English are beneficial.

[1] I’m going to ignore the debate over the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and linguistic determinism. Certainly, if that were true, then certain languages could be better at expressing a concept than other languages. I personally haven't seen enough evidence to support it.

You convinced me. (on that point only. On the whole, I still think Hebrew-fansubs are pointless.)

Luminare · 2006-02-05, 21:34

I think the most important thing about fansubbing is why you do it. If you sub to try and get the most leechers, non-English subs (especially Hebrew) may turn out to be pointless.

But, if you sub to keep a grip on your Japanese (or English or other language), then no matter what show you do, and no matter the language, it's never pointless. If you sub to have fun, well, who cares if other people think it's pointless? Don't let other people spoil your fun; it's not like you're hurting anyone by releasing Hebrew subs. Unless of course you start stealing other people's leechers-- then obviously you'll have people telling you to stop

So, I say ignore people who insist it's pointless. The only way anything in life becomes pointless is if you stop seeing the point. Noone has the right to deny you the choice of doing something that benefits around 300 people.

RainyDZ · 2006-02-12, 14:42

Hmm... I didn't know there are Korean fansubs at all, how ignorant of me. ^_^''
I heard Spanish fansubbers simply translate from English fansubs, is it true?

ladholyman · 2006-02-13, 01:45

Why wouldn't they?

CelesAurivern · 2006-02-13, 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainyDZ

Hmm... I didn't know there are Korean fansubs at all, how ignorant of me. ^_^''
I heard Spanish fansubbers simply translate from English fansubs, is it true?

I hear they prefer to tl from brazilian-portuguese since it's somewhat closer to espanol.

Sun_Tze · 2006-02-13, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by CelesAurivern

I hear they prefer to tl from brazilian-portuguese since it's somewhat closer to espanol.

Nop. 90% of the Spanish fansubs either translate from the Japanese or from English.

Portuguese and Spanish are "sister"-languages, but they have several differences between them

phib · 2006-02-13, 17:03

I explained this a bit more on a thread that got wiped the D day... Anyway, 98% of spanish releases are translated from English. There aren't more than 5 persons with enough knowledge to translate so-so from Japanese on the whole scene, who are like a treasure and only used for emergency cases. It's much easier to find someone with a good knowledge of english here, since it is taught in school.

Btw, it's easier to find a br fansub that translates from spanish than viceversa.

Asai · 2006-02-14, 07:49

Like others have said, the fact that some (many?) non-English fansubbers are ripping other groups' translations, rather than doing Jap->Native translations themself is something I don't agree with.

However, I have nothing against non-English subs at all. Why shouldn't other people have subtitles available in their native language? There's absolutely no reason not to do it, even if people in many countries do know English as a second (or third, fourth, etc) language, it's still easier to read things in your native language.

I'm happy fansubbers take the time to do it at all, I'm certainly not going to criticise them for doing it how they want to; it's not like they're paid, they're doing a public service, so should receive praise for doing it at all, regardless of language.

Don't be discouraged just because some people say it's unnecessary. If you enjoy it, and you have a fanbase (300+ leechers is respectable!) then continue doing it by all means.

2006-02-02, 23:31	Link #24
Maceart Doremi-fansubs founder Fansubber Join Date: Mar 2004	There's lots more non-english fansubs than there are of english ones. If you look around the chinese/korean fansubbing sites, you'll see that about every anime that ever came out has been fansubbed, although the Chinese don't like to share very much (torrents die after a week or so...) so you'll have to use emule (e-snail by my definition) to get it. __________________ AIR 2005! Kanon 2006! CLANNAD 2007-2008! Planetarian OAV/Movie 2010?

2006-02-03, 16:40	Link #25
poetic scarecrow Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006	[I'm one of Random Otaku's friends and I'm a Anti-Hebrew-Fansub.] Hebrew fansubs (I don't know about other Non-English funsubs) are'nt bad, they're just pointless. Even after reading this thread, and countless hours of arguing with some Hebrew fansubbers on some israeli anime forums, I can see only one plus in Hebrew fansubs and a lot of minuses. PLUS: It's esaier for most Hebrew speakers to watch anime with Hebrew translation then with English translation. MINUSES: - Most of the Hebrew speakers who have potential for being anime-fans know English almost as good as they know Hebrew. - English is a much richer lanuage then Hebrew. - Most (if not all) of the Hebrew fansubs are second-handed translation. - ALL of the shows which are translated into Hebrew were already translated to English. - Less people => Less leachers. - Less people => Smaller groups => More mistakes. With all of these, it's clear to me that Random Otaku is just wasting his time. I'm sure he does enjoys it, I can understand it, but does he enjoys it enough to ignore the fact that it's POINTLESS? Last edited by poetic scarecrow; 2006-02-03 at 16:47. Reason: wanted to show my signature.

2006-02-03, 21:10	Link #27
Sun-Ku Member Join Date: Jul 2004	There are about 100 Million germans out there, but if you look for german fansubber s you must dug deep. There IS a huge german anime fanbase out there, BUT - English is very common among germans (min 5-8 years of school english for everyone) - Most people who dont speak or unlearned english won´t watch anime or prefer german dubs - the huge amount of fansites and forums are in english i watch animes in english because i´ve done it since years, and a little refresh-renew on my own english skills. (Yea self writing sucks, but i understand most spoken/written english very well). __________________

2006-02-13, 01:45	Link #33
ladholyman Translator for Doremi Join Date: Mar 2004 Age: 36	Why wouldn't they? __________________ Do you like lesbian tendencies? http://www.doremi-fansubs.com

2006-02-01, 13:13	Link #21
Desti-Fate Now available in pink Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Norn' Irelan', UK	Thing is, most Israelis could speak English well. And there's virtually no Hebrew speakers outside of Israel. Obviously, it's your group and you can do as like, but subs in English would be useful to a larger group of people while still being useful to Israelis. Although there may be plenty of people within Israel who don't speak English, and there's usually plenty of English subs about. Then again there might not be. You'd have to judge on a show-by-show basis whether it would be more useful to sub in Hebrew than English. Assuming that your goal is to make things easier for people rather than just doing because you enjoy it, in which case do as you like.

2006-02-02, 05:12	Link #22
FurryCurry Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	I see nothing at all wrong with "native language" translation efforts such as yours. Another benefit to such work is is that it can prevent "leakage" of fansubs done in english back into countries where some series may already be licensed (ie: US/R1) if that issue is of concern to you, and it also might minimize difficuties with english language licensors. Let them whine, and laugh in their faces.

2006-02-02, 07:04	Link #23
gnuffiehot Member Join Date: Feb 2004	Honestly, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with non-english fansubs. I used to sub Jigoku Shoujo into Dutch (yes, DUTCH >.>) and we only got positive responses. It's always good to fansub in different languages, because that can add to making anime more popular throughout the world, which again translates into more sales for the animation companies. So even financial-wise, I think it's a great thing ^_^

2006-02-05, 21:34	Link #31
Luminare Member Join Date: Dec 2005	I think the most important thing about fansubbing is why you do it. If you sub to try and get the most leechers, non-English subs (especially Hebrew) may turn out to be pointless. But, if you sub to keep a grip on your Japanese (or English or other language), then no matter what show you do, and no matter the language, it's never pointless. If you sub to have fun, well, who cares if other people think it's pointless? Don't let other people spoil your fun; it's not like you're hurting anyone by releasing Hebrew subs. Unless of course you start stealing other people's leechers-- then obviously you'll have people telling you to stop So, I say ignore people who insist it's pointless. The only way anything in life becomes pointless is if you stop seeing the point. Noone has the right to deny you the choice of doing something that benefits around 300 people.

2006-02-12, 14:42	Link #32
RainyDZ Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006	Hmm... I didn't know there are Korean fansubs at all, how ignorant of me. ^_^'' I heard Spanish fansubbers simply translate from English fansubs, is it true?

2006-02-13, 17:03	Link #36
phib Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004	I explained this a bit more on a thread that got wiped the D day... Anyway, 98% of spanish releases are translated from English. There aren't more than 5 persons with enough knowledge to translate so-so from Japanese on the whole scene, who are like a treasure and only used for emergency cases. It's much easier to find someone with a good knowledge of english here, since it is taught in school. Btw, it's easier to find a br fansub that translates from spanish than viceversa.

2006-02-14, 07:49	Link #37
Asai Nya? ^_^ Fansubber Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Australia	Like others have said, the fact that some (many?) non-English fansubbers are ripping other groups' translations, rather than doing Jap->Native translations themself is something I don't agree with. However, I have nothing against non-English subs at all. Why shouldn't other people have subtitles available in their native language? There's absolutely no reason not to do it, even if people in many countries do know English as a second (or third, fourth, etc) language, it's still easier to read things in your native language. I'm happy fansubbers take the time to do it at all, I'm certainly not going to criticise them for doing it how they want to; it's not like they're paid, they're doing a public service, so should receive praise for doing it at all, regardless of language. Don't be discouraged just because some people say it's unnecessary. If you enjoy it, and you have a fanbase (300+ leechers is respectable!) then continue doing it by all means.